Need a little help with this one - Jacques chimer

[tracerjack]

This chimer is marked Jacques, but I have learned their movements were made by other companies. Since it is also marked ‘Baden’, I would say it is German.

Other than extremely dried oil, there was nothing wrong with the strike or chime trains. Both work perfectly. It is the time train that is failing. I did have it running for 8 hours, but the amplitude was weak and overswing minuscule. It has a deadbeat escapement. The teeth were hitting the dead face, then sliding properly through the impulse face. Drops looked even, but it struggled to keep going. There was tightness in the center arbor through the front plate that I addressed, so then looked for worn pivot holes. With 2.5 mm thick plates, the only pivot hole that showed the tiniest bit of slop was the EW back plate. I bushed it, and the EW now spins with just pretension on the mainspring. One click and it is flying, so I think there is plenty of power. This is what concerns me.

If you saw that odd, obviously not original screw, would you conclude the only place left for me to examine is the pallets, that someone before me has messed with them. Before I try my first attempt at adjusting the pallets of a deadbeat, it would give me a nice dose of confidence if others here felt I had checked off all the other reasons for the time train failing to run and this is the next logical place to examine.

 

[kinsler33]

What I have done under such mysterious circumstances is to bush the escapement: escape wheel and pallet arbor. Even if these pivots look perfect with negligible side shake, bush them anyway. That's because these pivots wear out their holes in weird ways, and if the pallet arbor or the escape wheel jump a tiny bit with each tick, that lost motion will result in a marked reduction in pendulum swing.


M Kinsler

 

[wow]

How about the barrel and cap bushings? That will definitely reduce power.

 

[Willie X]

About the only way you can get a good help response for an escapement is to do a close-up slow-motion video. Control the verge to make smooth back and forth cycles about every 4 seconds. Willie X

 

[tracerjack]

I am going to read my 400 day chapter on deadbeats again, probably several times. Then I can check the spacing of the pallets without doing anything to them. Once it is back together, I’ll do a video. Grateful for the suggestions. Thought I only had one avenue left, but now I see there is a bit more I can do before moving the pallets.

 

[Willie X]

A 'slow roll' test wouId be in order. This can often spot problems that cause low power like: bent pivots, tapered pivots, tight bushings, lack of end play, stuff like that ... Willie X

 

[tracerjack]

With the mainspring completely let down, the EW turns the moment I put pressure on the key and zooms with one click. The only way to make it roll slowly is to maintain just slight pressure on the key, but no click. Surely that is enough power going up the train. It is a full one inch mainspring on this time train which I can verify had plenty of power in it as I tried to pull through the coils while cleaning it. I agree a video is the next step. I measured the pallets, and one is shorter than the other, but I will not touch it until I get a video done.

 

[Willie X]

Sticking points are often intermittent. To do the slow roll test you need to stop and release the escape wheel many times. Continue until most of the wheels have made a full turn.

The fast roll test is good also. It can show faults like bad teeth, bent wheels, bent arbors. Sights and sounds are key here and you wind it up about half way and let er go. Tie, or wire, up the chime/strike flirt to prevent any potential damage and allow the going train to run without interference.

Willie X

 

[R. Croswell]

It has a deadbeat escapement. The teeth were hitting the dead face, then sliding properly through the impulse face. Drops looked even, but it struggled to keep going.

It sounds like the escapement is functioning. I would be reluctant to mess with the pallet positions unless you can verify exactly what needs to be changed and how much. If the teeth are landing on the dead face, I doubt that repositioning the pallets in the verge will accomplish anything other than potentially creating an additional problem. There are a few things related to the escapement that should be checked:
1) The surfaces on the pallets should be smooth and polished.
2) The transition from dead face to impulse face should be a sharp line (not rounded off)
3) A deadbeat escapement does not require a lot of lock on the dead face. The escape wheel tooth should lock on the dead face just a bit past the transition line between the dead and impulse faces. If someone has adjusted this escapement as if it were a recoil escapement (for maximum lock), the excessive dead face lock can rob power.
4) Sounds like the going train moves freely, how about the verge and crutch?
5) Can't see the crutch in the picture, so make sure there is a tiny bit of clearance between the crutch and the pendulum leader. If there is no clearance between the crutch and pendulum leader it will easily kill a clock. Conversely, excessive slop at this point will fail to deliver full power.
6) Is the clock "in beat"?

Before I try my first attempt at adjusting the pallets of a deadbeat, it would give me a nice dose of confidence if others here felt I had checked off all the other reasons for the time train failing to run and this is the next logical place to examine.

Not until we see the slo mo video. Yes, there is deviance that someone adjusted or replaced at least one of the pallets, but no indication that they were adjusted incorrectly. Trial and error can get you in trouble here. Your observations suggest that the escapement is working. If it locks on the dead face and doesn't bind up, I don't think that adjusting the pallets just because they are adjustable is going to be helpful.

On your free roll / slow roll test, try it with the movement on its back, on its face, and in the normal operating position. Let the test run until all of the wheels have turned at least one full revolution. Keep the revs low. Sounds like a power/wear/friction problem right now. Of course I may be wrong, have been many times.

RC

 

[tracerjack]

Almost all my chimers are recoils, and I have never before had a problem with the time train, always the chime or strike. All the deadbeats I have worked on were on 400 day, which functions very differently from gravity movements, so not able to transfer much knowledge from that group. All the suggestions are very helpful. I will go down the list and post again when I have checked them all off.

 

[kinsler33]

How about the barrel and cap bushings? That will definitely reduce power.

These are very important, for if they're worn sufficiently the barrel will tip and rub against something. Check by trying to wiggle the barrel to see how far it will tip.

 

[J. A. Olson]

That's a nice movement... one produced by Mathias Bäuerle GmbH. Some were signed 'Peerless' on the backplate.
They are good quality and easily comparable to a Winterhalder in every aspect. The plate lacquer is quite pleasant.

Did you disassemble the movement for cleaning? There might be some dry oil left inside the pivots and bushings.
It doesn't take too much crud to bog down power transmission, even if it seems to work without the pendulum on.
If the clock has an adjustable crutch for leveling, make sure it isn't loose. A loose crutch will rob the pendulum of power.

 

[tracerjack]

That's a nice movement... one produced by Mathias Bäuerle GmbH. Some were signed 'Peerless' on the backplate.
They are good quality and easily comparable to a Winterhalder in every aspect. The plate lacquer is quite pleasant.

Did you disassemble the movement for cleaning? There might be some dry oil left inside the pivots and bushings.
It doesn't take too much crud to bog down power transmission, even if it seems to work without the pendulum on.
If the clock has an adjustable crutch for leveling, make sure it isn't loose. A loose crutch will rob the pendulum of power.

This is just the tip of what I found while disassembling it for cleaning. The clicks and ratchets were actually frozen to the plate by the dried up oil.
I don’t have an ultrasonic, but I am meticulous about cleaning the pivot holes and polishing the pivots. The adjustable crutch was an new to me since it is not friction fitted, but screws on; the more it is screwed, the tighter it gets. I at first had it too loose and the verge would easily move out of position. I agree that it is a quality movement (weighs a ton) thus my expectation for easy and complete success was high. But, even with this setback, I am confident I will find the problem of why the time train is not performing well, particularly after given so much help from this forum.

 

[tracerjack]

After applying all the suggestions concerning the power train, here are the videos. In this first one, just to be clear, I wasn't quite even in moving the crutch back and forth and holding the camera.
Jacques by hand

This one is under mainspring power.
Jacques under power

This last one is for the pendulum amplitude. The tick marks on the paper are 1/4 inch apart.
Jacques pendulum

After bushing the back plate for the EW, I had decided to postpone testing until I got some feedback from the forum. So the videos are after bushing the EW back plate. I immediately noted the ticks were louder. Before I practically had to put my ear on the plate. It also seems to have a more robust swing, although not wide, and more overswing. However, I do not have any of the motion works on, so I know more testing is in store.

 

[J. A. Olson]

The screw-on crutch is nice since you can adjust how tight it is. I find the friction-fit clutches are far worse to repair if they go loose. The Celebrates used a similar setup.

Have you tried lowering the anchor pallets to get better amplitude? I just repaired a Kienzle mantel clock that benefitted so much from lowering its escapement's anchor. Now the pendulum has better amplitude. Healthier swing and keeps in beat.

 

[tracerjack]

I hesitated to lower the escapement anchor because I had read that the gravity deadbeat did not need deep locks which is opposite to the 400 day where it is recommended to have deep locks. I also didn't want to do several things at once and then not know which one actually helped. I plan to see if I can get more amplitude, but if not, even with the 1/2 inch amplitude, I feel the strength of the pendulum swing now is so much better that it ought to run reliably.

 

[R. Croswell]

I hesitated to lower the escapement anchor because I had read that the gravity deadbeat did not need deep locks which is opposite to the 400 day where it is recommended to have deep locks. I also didn't want to do several things at once and then not know which one actually helped. I plan to see if I can get more amplitude, but if not, even with the 1/2 inch amplitude, I feel the strength of the pendulum swing now is so much better that it ought to run reliably.

Looking at the 2nd video (under mainspring power), you have a good positive dead face lock. In my opinion nothing would be gained by lowering the verge, and you might end up with the pallets snagging and damaging the EW teeth. In cases where lowering a deadbeat verge produces significant improvement in amplitude it is almost always a case where the escape wheel teeth were locking on the impulse face or the transition line between the impulse and dead faces. I know there is great temptation to adjust everything that's adjustable to see what happens, but that's a classic newby mistake.

Pendulum amplitude is not as important as the amount of overswing. Your escapement does have some overswing but very little. You won't get any more overswing by fooling with the escapement that has proper lock as yours does. The path to improving overswing (and pendulum amplitude) is tracking down any remaining wear and friction in the going train to improve power to the escapement. There is nothing especially desirable about a huge pendulum amplitude, in fact some of the most accurate clocks have very small pendulum amplitude. I don't know what would be "normal" for this clock, but it is running well in the video and will be stable as long as there is some overswing, but I think you can get it a little more if you find where power is being lost.

RC

 

[J. A. Olson]

I don't know what would be "normal" for this clock

What's normal for some is unusual for others.

There is nothing especially desirable about a huge pendulum amplitude, in fact some of the most accurate clocks have very small pendulum amplitude.

I see a very weak pendulum swing in the video and would not trust that to keep running consistently throughout the week. A frail escapement is sure to fail.

It's a common mistake to raise the anchor or pallets to minimalize amplitude in attempts to get a weak movement to operate. This does not really work: all it does it chew up the escapement wheel's teeth edges and can also damage the anchor pallets in more severe instances. I've never found any German three train springwind that would run reliably with such a low amplitude. There may be exceptions out there but I doubt this is one.

I see some very possible signs of wear on some teeth on the escapement wheel in the video.
Might you check these out?

 

[Vernon]

If not already mentioned, look for any slop in the suspension spring mounting.

Vernon

 

[Willie X]

In photo #1, the drops are unequal and the entrance pallet's lift seems to be slight.
So, this could be improved.

Did you check all the bearing surfaces including the barrel?
Thick plates are more demanding on the pivots being true. And, all is up in the air if the mainspring has been replace with a 'to thin' one.

I think someone has already 'done a job' on your clock and you are going down the same path of fixing stuff and never really knowing what the problem is/was.

Question, have you or your customer ever seen this clock in good running order? It could have been bouncing around, from one repairer to another for years, or decades.

Note, "tinyest bit of slop" in one pivot hole?? All pivots need to have observable clearance in their pivot holes.

My 2, Willie X

 

[tracerjack]

It is my clock, bought at auction for a reasonable price with no information on it at all. I am currently viewing it as a learning experience. I did question if the drops were equal, so thanks Willie X for the confirmation. Also, the suspension spring, though intact, has seen better days, so that is on the list as well. I checked once again for wear and see M Kinsler is right; the verge pivots should be bushed. I will do the front plate of the EW too for good measure. I’m tenacious by nature (others say stubborn is more accurate) so I will keep at it until I succeed or know the reason why not. At this point, I believe I have gotten more than enough feedback to be able to track down the culprit. I thank you all for taking the time to post. Your insights have been invaluable.

 

[R. Croswell]

What's normal for some is unusual for others.



I see a very weak pendulum swing in the video and would not trust that to keep running consistently throughout the week. A frail escapement is sure to fail.

It's a common mistake to raise the anchor or pallets to minimalize amplitude in attempts to get a weak movement to operate. This does not really work: all it does it chew up the escapement wheel's teeth edges and can also damage the anchor pallets in more severe instances. I've never found any German three train springwind that would run reliably with such a low amplitude. There may be exceptions out there but I doubt this is one.

I see some very possible signs of wear on some teeth on the escapement wheel in the video.
Might you check these out?

The tiny amount of overswing we are seeing will make this clock very sensitive to being in beat. Theoretically, the clock should be stable and continue to run as long as there is a positive overswing. I agree, after an 8-day run (possibly before) when the going train is called on to unlock the chime train to initiate the chime warning run, there may not be sufficient power to maintain a positive overswing and the clock will become unstable and probably stop.

RC

 

[J. A. Olson]

When this clock is all finished and running strong, I would suggest taking evaluation photos of the movement to show how everything is set up. Escapement, chime train, hammers, silent lever, and all else. It will be beneficial to future repairers working on the same type of clock. The Jacques mantel chime lineup is an uncommon breed so there aren't any published references detailing how to repair them.

 

[tracerjack]

I am so glad I came here for advice. I truly thought the wear in the upper wheel pivot holes of the time train was marginal, but all of you convinced me that on a deadbeat, any wear was robbing power. I bushed the front plate for the EW, and the amplitude immediately widened from 1/2 to 5/8 ths inch. I could not believe one bush could do that much. Moved on to bush the verge, replaced the wavy suspension spring, and smoothed out a tiny flat spot I found on one verge pivot. It is now doing a very healthy 3/4 inch, exactly what I had hoped to get when I started on this movement. Still some more work to do and more testing, but what a difference already.

 

[R. Croswell]

...........I truly thought the wear in the upper wheel pivot holes of the time train was marginal, but all of you convinced me that on a deadbeat, any wear was robbing power.

Wear in pivot holes throughout a movement can rob power and cause problems for all types of escapements. Many American made open spring powered clocks with recoil escapement were so overpowered that they would continue to run until they were beyond totally worn out. It isn't the lack of a deadbeat escapement that makes this possible, but the fact that these clocks were, in many cases, grossly overpowered. If fact a deadbeat escapement is actually more efficient than a recoil escapement and requires less power to run. Those who "cut their clock repair teeth" primarily on that type of overpowered American clocks often do not recognize the need for bushing pivot holes that only have moderate wear, smooth broaching newly broached pivot holes, polishing & burnishing pivots, cleaning mainsprings, and even the need to disassemble a movement for cleaning. Your work with this movement has demonstrated the need to avoid short cuts and properly fix what needs to be fixed, and recognize what needs to be left along. I hope you will post a final video after you have completed this job.

RC

 

[Willie X]

3/4" should give you some overswing. An 8-Day run followed by a 'run it till it stops' will tell the tale. Willie X

 

[tracerjack]

It ran all night with no degrade in the amplitude. When I am satisfied that I have done my best with this movement, I will post the results and what I have learned about the movement. Thanks to all of you, I am very confident it will be sooner than later.

 

[tracerjack]

Update: I tested the movement as Willie X suggested. Wound it up and let it run for as long as it would. It went 8 1/2 days. On the third day, I noticed the amplitude would fluctuate between the 3/4 inch and the original 1/2 inch. Seemed to align with whether the minute hand was being lifted or falling. Once that was done, I inspected the pallet faces under my watch microscope. Not only were they scoured and the edges rolled, the exit pallet face had two angles on it! I knew it could not have worn that way, so someone had been grinding on them. Although it had run with the pallets in that condition, I knew it wouldn't for very long.

Since there was plenty of length on the nibs, and even though I don't have a lathe, I thought, "I could try to regrind these faces by hand, make several mistakes and still have plenty left. In my arrogance, I also thought, "I can't possibly do worse." Well, I did and I didn't. I followed the original face angles, which turned out to be wrong, which is probably why the movement ran so poorly. I knew the person before me hadn't done a good job, so why I followed in their footsteps is crazy. I guess I thought I'd just get lucky. Next I dove into the archives and did my proper research on how to determine the 2 degree angles. When it all looked good, back in the movement it went. I was sorely disappointed when I got no more than the original 1/2 inch amplitude and it kept going out of beat. Turned out the screw type crutch foot wouldn't stay tight. Fixed that and the mangling someone had done on the crutch itself. I could have danced for joy when I saw the amplitude go to 7/8th inch and stay there. So now I am one happy camper, although I doubt I will ever attempt to grind pallet nibs again without a lathe. Actually, in hindsight, I think I'd happily pay whatever price to have someone with the proper setup do it.

When I get it all back together, I will post a video.

 

[tracerjack]

Here's a video of the improved amplitude.

And the original

 

[J. A. Olson]

Looks better compared to earlier... now to get the chimes and strike back together.

 

[tracerjack]

Working on it, but this one has been one thing after another. I go to set the locking plate on its arbor and discover that the set screw head is too large to fit between the plates (outer for chime selection, inner for chime correction). Someone along the line lost the original and substituted one that didn’t fit. Not only that, it was far too short to do the job even if it could have fit. Had to dig around my bone pile for something. Of course, the threads didn’t match so ended up tapping for what I had. Last the hammers were frozen on their arbor with old oil. I’ve seen plenty of gummy green oil, but this was the first I’ve seem crystallized. Some of the old oil I had to chip off. Then noticed the leathers were all shot. Screw in type that refused to let the old leather screw out. But, after several hours of work, it is now all back together. Testing begins tomorrow.

 

[tracerjack]

Chime and strike are now functioning properly on the test stand - at least while running it through its paces. I’ll know more when it runs on its own for several days. I’m including a photo of the internal placement of wheels (set in front plate) and a better one of the front plate levers just in case someone in the future needs it. The front plate photo is missing the locking plate so that the long lever can be seen. I aligned the warn wheels at 180, and the chime stop lever with its cam when assembling.

It is a well made movement, chime correction is plug and play. No need to adjust any thing there. But, there is very little room for error on the alignment of the locking plate notches with the chime stop cam. Care is also needed since the levers for the two are on the same arbor. The chime stop lever is friction fit and must be carefully adjusted for height. Strike side has limited adjustment for hammer fall since the GP is on a square arbor.
Here is the worst. The chime barrel is fixed to an arbor that has a direct drive wheel. To find the correct hammer fall, the chime barrel unit must be pulled until the wheel disengages. That requires loosening the hammer plate that holds everything together. And the parts do not want to stay together while attempting that. Once you find the correct hammer fall, if you don’t mesh the drive wheel correctly with the locking plate, you get to start over. I would call it a high level patience test.

 

[Vernon]

although I doubt I will ever attempt to grind pallet nibs again without a lathe. Actually, in hindsight, I think I'd happily pay whatever price to have someone with the proper setup do it.

I don't believe that a lathe is necessary, just a variety of abrasives. I have followed Mr. LaBounty's procedure a couple of times now with great success! https://abouttime-clockmaking.com/pdfs/finding_the_lift_angles.pdf Measure the distance between pallets with a caliper prior to your work so that they can be returned as close as possible.

Vernon

 

[tracerjack]

True, a lathe isn’t necessary. I did have a successful outcome doing it all by hand, but the precision of a lathe would have made the process a whole lot easier.

 

[tracerjack]

Update:
Still working on this one, but almost there. The hour hammer tail was so long that by the time it fell off a star wheel pin, it was already touching the next one. There was no way to provide a gap for the strike warning run. The hour hammer was also lifting well over an inch. So to shorten the tail, nearly complete disassembly.

Also discovered that the chime correction lever will interfere with the chime lock if things are not correctly meshed. It was odd, because setting the chime warn pin during assembly at 180, it would work properly at the first and second quarters, stopping at 180 after each chime section played. But, at the end of the third, when the chime correction lever lifts, it would lock the train on the warn pin before the locking lever could. On the hour, the strike would begin before the chime, which would sometimes fail to play, or play along with the strike. By being locked with the warn pin, the pin could only move slightly during warn, from the chime correction detent to the warn detent, a mere eighth of an inch apart. The chime train would not roll enough to prevent a drop back into the locking plate slot. Not sure why this worked, but here goes. I set the minute hand to past the 3/4 quarter, then removed the locking plate so the chime correction lever couldn't interfere with the chime lock. Once locked, the warn pin was at 180, as it had been on the other quarters. If it hadn’t been, I would have had to adjust it. Put the locking plate back at the 3/4 slot, and it worked properly from then on. Still scratching my head over that, but happy it is now working.

This movement has taken me on a wild ride, but I’m now seeing the light at the end of the tunnel. Just some more testing, and if all goes well, I can put it back in the case so I can finally hear how the coil gongs sound.

 

[tracerjack]

Here is a video of it chiming and striking. I resilvered the dial; the case came out better than I thought after a good cleaning, so I will leave it alone. The dial has a plate behind it. Someone put pins in the diamonds of the 3,6,9,12, to hold the dial to the plate, but since there is nothing on the case to hold it there, I'm thinking it originally had #0 machine screws. Of course, I only had round heads, so will have to source some flat heads. I was surprised that the sound of the slightly untuned gongs does not bother me at all, whereas I hate it when chime rods aren't. It has a rather stately pace to the chime, but the strike is the same tempo, so unless it fails to chime, I will leave that alone as well.

 

[J. A. Olson]

Just like "Big Ben". Good deep sound and what a nice dial too. What did you use to resilver it?

 

[tracerjack]

I used the kit from the UK, Priory Polishes Mine is several years old now. I think at the time it was less expensive, even with shipping, than the kit from Timesavers. Some things in clock repair are so much easier than they appear, for me resilvering falls in that category. I don't mind a uniformly worn dial, but I think streaks and blotches are just unpleasant to look at.