My new IBM master clock -- need help to identify and some parts

Discussion in 'Electric Horology' started by berntd, Aug 26, 2012.

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  1. berntd

    berntd Registered User

    Jun 21, 2009
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    Hello all

    I just obtained this IBM master clock. It is basically complete except for the suspension and the minute hand.

    Can someone please help me with a picture of what the suspension should look like so I can make one?

    Maybe someone has a spare minute hand for me? The hands seem just thin aluminum, black on one side.

    Can anyone please tell me how to get it working (electrically)?
    How do I detemine the operating voltage? I am in Australia and so is the clock but I don't know if these had external transformers or something?

    It seems to be a magnet wind type that has to rewind every few minutes.

    I would also like to date the clock. From the IBM site, it looks like a Model25. Of course, I am not too sure.

    Is it even worthwhile to pursue this?

    Here are some pics!!


    Best regards
    Bernt
     

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  2. Richard T.

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    #2 Richard T., Aug 26, 2012
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2012
    Hello Bernt,

    Thanks for posting your IBM master clock. It is certainly worth restoring. On many of these a Seth Thomas No. 2 regulator suspension spring works very well.

    According to the Timesavers catalog it is .0025" thick x 1 3/16" long their part no. is 10421. Photo below.

    I am moving this to the electric clock forum since self winding and IBM clock are included there.

    Best,

    Richard T.
     

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  3. harold bain

    harold bain Registered User
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    Nice find, Berntd. These clocks need, usually, 24 volts DC to wind them up. The wind solenoid picks once a minute to keep it wound up. If the coils are not stamped with the voltage, you will need to experiment to test if 24 volts is correct. All the circuitry is there, except for the power supply and relays, to run slave clocks. You will have a very accurate wall clock that doesn't need winding when you are done.
    I think the quartz slave drivers are capable of running these, if you don't want to build a power supply. Ken's Clock Clinic supplies these.
     
  4. eskmill

    eskmill Registered User
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    #4 eskmill, Aug 26, 2012
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2012
    A good find Bernt; these are very dependable master clocks. A quick look at the pendulum suggests that it is one with an Invar rod. Look carefully near the hook for any indelible marks that would have been made with a file....they indicate the amount of compensation needed for the particular Invar rod.

    The appendage on the movement is the accumulator. It's presence suggests that the clock was meant to be operated from a storage battery, although the master clock may have been operated from a transformer/rectifier with any attached secondary or "slave" clocks or dials powered from a storage battery.
    The accumulator feature is in addition to the IBM "hourly supervised correction" circuitry that corrects any errant slave clocks during the final minutes of each hour.

    The master movement will operate without any electrical power for six or seven hours without electric power and runs on its mainspring during electrical outage. The accumulator, simply an incremental counter that can add and subtract, normally advances along with the master movement through the gear train. If electrical power is good, the accumulator will not increment. But......if there's no electrical power for the slaves, the accumulator advances incrementally each minute. If and when electrical power is restored, the accumulator will decrement, advancing the slave clocks at a two-second rate until the accumulator's count equals zero. In this way, the slave clocks are brought to agreement with the master after an electrical outage.

    IBM Master clocks with the accumulator feature are not often seen in the US and I suspect your clock was made in England for sale there or in one of the Colonies. IBM once had a significant presence in India but during the late 1950's or early 1960's, India "nationalized" IBM's business there. I only mention this fact as a possibility that your clock may have been assembled in India. Does your clock have a nameplate? We'd be interested in a photo of the plate or it's content data.
     
  5. berntd

    berntd Registered User

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    Hello all and thanks for the replies!!

    The clock movement plate states "International... "Made in England" on it.

    Does anyone have a spare minute hand and nut for this perhaps?


    Progress report so far :)

    After some research, I made a new suspension spring last night.
    I made it like the original with 2 round steel bushes. Took all evening to make that but it looks and works great.


    The movement had no power (spring power that is) as it is all gummed up.
    Just for testing, I sprayed it with penetrating spray to free it up.
    I managed to get it working for a few minutes at a time quite nicely.
    Long enough to see that my new suspension must be very close to the original as the clock is ony ~4 beats off 3600 :)


    I think it is all quite fixable and complete.

    It would be easy to get a 24V switchmode power supply to run it.
    Will have to see as I have no real intention (yet) to run this at home.

    Best regards
    Bernt
     
  6. harold bain

    harold bain Registered User
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    It will take some getting used to hearing that solenoid pick once a minute. You may have to make a hand for it, as well as the nut, unless someone has spares.
    Give it a good strip-down cleaning before running it.
     
  7. berntd

    berntd Registered User

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    Ok, if nobody has a spare hand for me, then maybe someone can post a closeup pic and possibly some dimensions for the correct hand instead?

    In particular, the boss in the center is of interest.

    The hands remind me a lot of those cheaper 1950s kitchen clocks...

    Regards
    Bernt
     
  8. harold bain

    harold bain Registered User
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    The minute hand bushing is sort of D shaped so that it can only go on in one of the 4 possible positions. My camera won't show it in close-up. None of my masters have the black and white dial like yours, so the hands are also totally different looking. If I recall, another Australian member posted one like this a few years ago. Perhaps a search might turn him up.
     
  9. harold bain

    harold bain Registered User
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  10. berntd

    berntd Registered User

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    Is this D-shape at exact right angles with the hand?

    How do I know which of the 4 possible ways the hand should go on the arbor?
    or when should the hand be at the exact 12 'o clock position?

    I guess this would be an electrical contact alignment question right?


    Right now, I am still hoping that someone here on the forum either has a spare hand or will make me a template/sketch/ pic of a similar hand :)

    Regards
    Bernt
     
  11. harold bain

    harold bain Registered User
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    The D shape is in a hand bushing. It's position is adjustable. Where it needs to be set is relative to the timing of the contacts. After a lot of searching, I haven't come up with a clock with a dial and hands matching what you have.
     
  12. berntd

    berntd Registered User

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    Hello

    Thanks.
    I can't see anything adjustable on the D-shape on the arbor. Unless you mean removing some gears and putting them in different positions?

    Anyway, progress report:
    I removed the movement last night and unfortunately, it will need some bushes and possibly pivot work.

    Man are they worn... I bet it never had any oil for decades - if ever.

    I was sitting there last night, pondering how I shoud proceed with dissasmbling it so I can get it back together with the correct tinming of all those cams and contacts. Not to mention the accumulator...

    I am still at a loss and need a few hints.

    Can you folks please advise me how I should go about this as I don't want to permanently get it out of whack?

    :excited:

    Best regards
    Bernt
     
  13. harold bain

    harold bain Registered User
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    The adjustment is on the hand (bushing slips). This schematic includes contact timing. This is also the power supply that would have been used to power this clock and run slaves. To take the movement out, remove the two screws that hold the contact plate to the movement, after you've removed the wires going to the impulse coil. Remove the two nuts holding the accumulator to the bottom of the movement. Look where the movement mounts to the cast bracket, and you should see a couple of setscrews that hold the movement to this plate. Loosen them enough to pull the movement out. IBM 601-9 master relay.jpg
     
  14. berntd

    berntd Registered User

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    Hi Harold

    Thanks again. As said, the movement is out but I am scared of disassmbling it at this point, fearing I can't put it back together again.

    That wiring diagram shows 4 contacts.
    This clock has 5 contacts + another one (6) in the accumulator.

    There seems to be a 2nd minute contact behind the front one (between front and rear plates)

    Does the 2sec contact have to open or close exactly with the minute contact or is it not important?

    Is any of the timing interaction between the individual contacts important?

    How does the accumutor get timed to the rest of the movement?

    I can't find the link I saw earlier to the service manuals. :confused:

    Best regards
    Bernt
     
  15. harold bain

    harold bain Registered User
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    The accumulator isn't in the diagram. The second contacts behind the minute contacts are the duration contacts to be utilized with a bell programmer that you don't have. The critical contacts are the ones on the double contact strap. They will automatically be correct when you put it back together. Take lots of pictures. Remove the anchor to let the mainspring down by letting the clock freewheel. Note all screws and locations for them to get the right screws in the right places. It's a relatively simple, good quality movement. They seldom need bushings, but if yours does, well it's probably been run dry and dirty for too long.
     
  16. berntd

    berntd Registered User

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    Hi Harold,

    thanks so much for all your help. In poking around the forum, I have discovered that you worked with this stuff in the past. No wonder tat you know all the little details :thumb:

    Do you perhaps have the link to the blueprints and service manual / instructions?

    I found them recently but now cannot find them again.

    Regards
    Bernt
     
  17. harold bain

    harold bain Registered User
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  18. berntd

    berntd Registered User

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    Hello

    Thanks Harold. I have it all in pieces now.

    Needs at least 2 bushes and pivot work on 1 pivot.
    Can I burnish these pivots?

    They just look so shiny and I think they might be plated?

    Regards
    Bernt
     
  19. harold bain

    harold bain Registered User
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    Not likely would they be plated. As far as I know this was only done on modern German movements. I've never had a problem burnishing them. But, I've never run into a badly scored pivot either, so have never needed to take much material off the pivots.
     
  20. berntd

    berntd Registered User

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    That is good news.

    It is the wheel between the centre / spring wheel and the escapewheetl.
    Both front an rear bushes are worn badly on that and the rear pivot is somewhat rough. Not too bad but it will need a little smoothing.

    The escapewheel bushes are a little loose but don't seem badly worn and I will leave them for now.

    2 Questions:

    1) How many spacers / washers shold there be behing the slit pin that holds the spring / center wheel assembly together? I didn't know there was a spacer until I assembled it. I then found 1 spcacer / washer on the floor but the spilt pin still seems a bit far away so maybe this needs 2 spacers?

    2) There is a brass shim on the surface of the winding solenoid / arm. This is worn through. Is the thickness of that crytical?


    Best regards
    Bernt





    There is a brass shim on the winding solenoid
     
  21. eskmill

    eskmill Registered User
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    Bernt asks about the spacers between the mainspring wheel and the "split pin" (cotter pin) that holds the mainspring assembly together. I don't know but enough to remove any end play but not so much as to cause the winding ratchet bind. Odd that there was two spacers.

    The brass armature "shim" is to prevent residual magnetism that would cause the armature to hang-up on the magnet cores.
     
  22. berntd

    berntd Registered User

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    Hi Eckmill

    There is currently about .7mm play between the 2 parts you mention.
    This is with a single spacer. Another washer could easily have been fitted there - or not.

    Unfortunately the whole thing was so gummed up that I thought the spacer(s) were part of the assembly and only noticed upon reassmebly that there was somehting missing.
     
  23. harold bain

    harold bain Registered User
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    Your picture also shows what I think is too much spring tension pulling back the solenoid clapper. This will have the mainspring operating under "full wind", which it's not designed to do, but it overcomes wear and dirt in the movement. If the spring is good, it only needs to be able to wind about 19-20 turns from a relaxed position.
    My parts book shows two spacers on the center shaft assy., with two different part numbers, one .003, .190 ID, and one .052, .188 ID. This would be in inches.
     
  24. berntd

    berntd Registered User

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    Hi Harold,

    Thanks. I will adjust that tension when I reassemble.
    I had the sspring out last night and I thought is looked a little settled in the center area. Then again, it is a very light spring so we shall see...


    Do you think both spacers go under the cotter/split pin or does one of them fit on the spring side of the assembly?

    Dang, now I try and find this other spacer or turn up a new one :bang:

    Regards
    Bernt
     
  25. harold bain

    harold bain Registered User
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    The parts book is pretty vague about the spacer locations. This is why close attention needs to be paid when taking this movement apart.
    Careful with the mainspring, you won't be able to easily find a replacement.
     
  26. berntd

    berntd Registered User

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    Hi Harold
    In looking at this again, the .008 is posiibly a steel washer that goes between the gear assembly and the other spacer. It would prevent brass on brass friction. I guess the book does not say?


    I have the .052 spacer and it is in brass. It is shiny on one side and dark the other so it was on the outside of the assembly.

    Even if there were a .008 washer added, the end float would still be ~35mils . I just turned up a 30mil brass spacer and I find that there ist still qite a bit of play left in the assembly.

    I am wondering that this parts bookl could be quite intersting. For the sake of preservation, do you think it is possible that this parts book could be scanned and put in the archives at some stage perhaps?

    Best regards
    Bernt
     
  27. harold bain

    harold bain Registered User
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    Possibly, but not by me. Its small (6x9 or so) and hard to read, with about 2-300 pages. I don't have the equipment to do a good job of this. It will end up at the NAWCC library when I'm gone.
     
  28. berntd

    berntd Registered User

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    Hey, we still need you here so don't go anywhere :cop:

    I have the basic movement re-assembled and working. I manually wound it and it is ticking away strongly. This morning, the spring had completely run down so everything seems just fine.

    Now I am working on those electric contacts and here are some more questions:

    1) Can the little silver tips be replaced? The winding / minute one is really badly pitted with a hole almost right through the middle.

    2) Should the rapid 2sec contact have an insulator buttom on the tip where it meets with the brass lever from the escapement? There is a hole on the contact tspring there but nothing in it. The spring is touching the brass of the escapement directly.

    Regards
    Bernt
     
  29. harold bain

    harold bain Registered User
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    Yeah, I have no plans to leave:whistle:.
    Yes, the tips can be replaced. I've done it a few times. But I usually just replace the whole contact strap (yes, I have a supply of them). When I run into a contact I don't have, I take the contact off a new one, and press and peen it onto the old one.
    And, yes, there should be an insulator attached to the contact to isolate it from the movement, but this is one contact that I don't think I have a new one of. The movement should not be electrically active at all, unlike some clocks that use the movement as a "ground/common".
     
  30. berntd

    berntd Registered User

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    Hi Harold

    Thanks.

    I will turn up some sort of insulator button for the top contact. Hopefully I have something suitable made of plastic.

    To prevent the minute / wind contact burning off further, I am considering adding a relay between it and the wind solenoid.
    Could this supply of replacement contacts perhaps, maybe be tapped into at all? :whistle:



    Do you know how the accumulator works?
    I mean electrically what it does and how it operates onto the slave clocks?

    Regards
    Bernt
     
  31. harold bain

    harold bain Registered User
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    Les gave a pretty good description of the accumulator in post 4. It's use is for correcting slave clocks after extended power outages. It isn't shown in any service manuals that I have seen. Basically, it has an impulse coil that keeps the two parts of it synchronized. When the power is off, the two parts loose sync, and close a set of contacts. When the power is restored, the contacts allow an impulse every two seconds until the two parts are back in sync, opening the contact. The slaves also get these impulses to bring them to time.
    Send me a private message, and I'll try to fix you up with contacts. I'll be on holiday next week, so may not get them out for a while.
    An R/C spark suppressor across the contacts will keep the contacts lasting longer. The insulator was some sort of fiber, by the looks of it. Plastic should be OK. Could epoxy it on.
     
  32. berntd

    berntd Registered User

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    Hi Harold
    Thanks again fora ll the replies.
    There is no hurry for a new contact yet. Let me fist get it working properly. I also still nede to find a minute hand for it.

    I will PM you once you get back from holiday about it, week after next or so.

    Best regards
    Bernt
     
  33. berntd

    berntd Registered User

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    Hello

    Closer investigation has now shown that the hour hand is completly wrong as well.

    I am looking for hands like these instead.
    This pic it courtesy of flickr

    Regards
    Bernt
     

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  34. berntd

    berntd Registered User

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    Hi Harold and group

    I am now trying to wire this clock to do a test run - no slave clocks.

    Where should the 1 wire of the winding solenoid connect to?
    The other goes to C.

    I first thought it shoudl go to A but then it gets rapid pulses every hour.
    If I put it onto B, then it won't wind for ~10 minutes.\ while the stop switch is open.

    :confused::confused:

    Regards
    Best Bernt
     
  35. harold bain

    harold bain Registered User
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    It should go to "A". The rapid pulses won't hurt anything but ensure it is fully wound. Once the mainspring is fully wound, the spring that pulls the advance pawl on the ratchet wheel will no longer be strong enough to pull so that the spring will not be over wound.
    Did you make up a power supply similar to what my diagram in post 13 shows?
     
  36. berntd

    berntd Registered User

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    Hi Harold

    I have if running at the moment.
    I have borrowed a 24V DC supply for testing it. I am not useing a relay at the moment but I will get one somewhere.

    The pulses are pretty much where and when they should be. I can still fine tune it if there is a problem.

    The accumulator doesn't work!!!!
    Electrically speaking that is. It isn't faulty.
    I will start a new thread for that.

    Regards
    Bernt
     

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