My Great Grandfather's 1904? Hampden Grade 105 16s 21J

[NGEN33R]

My Grandfather gave me this watch when I graduated college. I have always had a passion for watches and mechanical things and recently took an interest in this watch. My grandfather will be 100 in August 2023 and I am trying to line up some plans to have this restored and returned to him for his 100th birthday present. He tells me that his father was forced to turn in the gold to the US government in the 1930's so the watch unfortunatley does not have the case and being unprotected for all these years has left a chip in the dial. I have searched high and low and I cannot seem to even find another watch that has this specific dial? Can anybody provide me more information about this watch? I know it is from around 1904, but i would like to know more about the dial and possibly what the case looked like. I would love to source a dial and case for this and have it sent out to Marshall @ Wristwatch Revival on YouTube for restoration. My Grandfather claims that the case was solid gold, but it appears from searching that it might have been plated but I am not sure of this. Any info or help is appreciated.

 

[musicguy]

Hi and welcome to the NAWCC American Pocket Watch form

Just to start if I read your serial number correctly.
Hampden Pocket Watch: Serial Number 1980551 (Grade No. 105) (pocketwatchdatabase.com)

I can move your watch to the repair section if you wish
for more information on repair. It could easily have been in solid gold case.


Rob

 

[Appa69]

You should be able to find a decent replacement at a reasonable cost without much trouble. It might take longer to find an exact match. Try daveswatchparts.com

Executive order 6102 did the following :

1.Forbade ownership of quantities of gold coin, bullion, and gold certificates worth in excess of $100 (about 5 troy ounces), with exemptions for specific uses and collections;

2.Required all persons to deliver excess quantities of the above on or before May 1, 1933 in exchange for $20.67 per troy ounce;

3.Enabled Federal funding of Exchange Stabilization Fund using profit realized from international transactions against new Federal reserves.

Your great-grandfather must have had a LOT of gold to have to turn in a watch case under this order...

 

[MrRoundel]

I agree that you should be able to find a 16s dial to replace the present one. That said, the existing dial could be made to look better than it does, albeit never perfect. I don't think there is anyone in the world who could really restore this dial to perfection today. However, I could be wrong. But if I were wrong, the cost would probably be astronomical.

Best bet is to keep an eye out for a 16s Open Face Hampden dial. That double-sunk dial with stylish Arabic numerals was a common one used by Hampden on it's higher grade offerings.

On the case issue, it may well have been in a solid gold case, but there's no way of telling by looking at the movement. At least AFAIK. If you want to find a case for it, it'll be a LOT easier to find a gold-filled or nickel silver/silverode case. I believe it should fit in a standard American style 16 size case. For the best brand match, a Dueber brand would be a nice touch, as Dueber was part of Hampden, or vise-versa. Good luck.

 

[Appa69]

It also looks like the tail is broken on the seconds hand....

 

[Dave Coatsworth]

I don't think the hour and minute hands are original, either. They are too 'heavy' for that style of dial.

 

[NGEN33R]

I agree that you should be able to find a 16s dial to replace the present one. That said, the existing dial could be made to look better than it does, albeit never perfect. I don't think there is anyone in the world who could really restore this dial to perfection today. However, I could be wrong. But if I were wrong, the cost would probably be astronomical.

Best bet is to keep an eye out for a 16s Open Face Hampden dial. That double-sunk dial with stylish Arabic numerals was a common one used by Hampden on it's higher grade offerings.

On the case issue, it may well have been in a solid gold case, but there's no way of telling by looking at the movement. At least AFAIK. If you want to find a case for it, it'll be a LOT easier to find a gold-filled or nickel silver/silverode case. I believe it should fit in a standard American style 16 size case. For the best brand match, a Dueber brand would be a nice touch, as Dueber was part of Hampden, or vise-versa. Good luck.

Check out this video. I have reached out to this person in hopes that they can help me. Even if the cost is a little high, the sentimental value would be worth it if I cannot find an exact replacement.



I have scoured Google and Bing images and I have not found a dial with the excessive curls in the numbers. Do you by chance have an image of one for reference?

I appreciate the comments and information from everyone. I will start looking for some era specific parts watches so I can get the correct hands and also look for the mentioned case.

Thank You

 

[MrRoundel]

I have scoured Google and Bing images and I have not found a dial with the excessive curls in the numbers. Do you by chance have an image of one for reference?
Thank You

It is possible that I am in error about how common that exact dial was, but I'm 99.9% sure I have seen it on various Hampdens over the years. However, they may well have lacked the exaggerated curls that your dial's numbers show. I checked a couple of Hampden dials that I have images of and they are close, but not perfect. And they are on/for the larger 18s movements. The only image of a double-sunk dial is on a 23 jewel 18s Special Railway model. So maybe a search for the perfect dial would take longer than I thought. Hopefully someone more expert in Hampden watches will chime in with good info.

I know there is a great book out there on Hampdens. I'd be surprised if it didn't have a section on dial options, etc. Good luck, whatever you decide. Cheers.

 

[Jim Haney]

If you do a eBay search you will find alot of these not missing enamel just some light hairlines that will come out in a cleaner./


1912 Hampden 16s Grade 105 21j Railroad Pocket Watch for PARTS with dial | eBay



1915 Hampden 17 jewel Gold Filled Pocket Watch | eBay





Antique 1903 Hampden WM McKinley Pocket Watch Movement Running Ticks 16s 17j USA | eBay

Hampden Pocket Watch 16 Size 17 Jewel Hunt Case Gen'l Stark Movement - CS24 | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Hampden Pocket Watch 16 Size 17 Jewel Hunt Case Gen'l Stark Movement - CS24 at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

www.ebay.com

 

[NGEN33R]

If you do a eBay search you will find alot of these not missing enamel just some light hairlines that will come out in a cleaner./


1912 Hampden 16s Grade 105 21j Railroad Pocket Watch for PARTS with dial | eBay



1915 Hampden 17 jewel Gold Filled Pocket Watch | eBay





Antique 1903 Hampden WM McKinley Pocket Watch Movement Running Ticks 16s 17j USA | eBay

Hampden Pocket Watch 16 Size 17 Jewel Hunt Case Gen'l Stark Movement - CS24 | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Hampden Pocket Watch 16 Size 17 Jewel Hunt Case Gen'l Stark Movement - CS24 at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

www.ebay.com

Thank you for those links. I purchased the 1903 for the hands. If I cannot find the exact dial or have mine repaired I can also use the dial. I have WAYYYY to many hobbies right now to get into watch restoration, but maybe someday after I finish all my mantle clocks. I also purchased that book in hopes to find out more about the dial and case style.

Again thank you 1000 times for all the help!!!!

 

[Kent]

Hi NGEN33R:

Please add my welcome to Rob's

To add to the good information you've already learned:

Please excuse me if I repeat some of what you already know, it's easier for me this way. Checking the references listed in the Hampden Watch Co. Encyclopedia article (and looking at your pictures), Hampden movement serial number 1,980,551 can be seen to be
a 16-size,
model 4,
grade No. 105,
Adjusted to Temperature, Five Positions and Isochronism,
lever-set,
open-face movement,
having 21 jewels,
and a Patent Regulator.
The movement is fitted with a double-sunk, Arabic dial having a R5MT (Red 5 Minute Track).
It was built in about 1906, give or take a year or so.

You can see a catalog description of the No. 105 grade on page 32 of the September 1909 W.J. Johnson Price List (below)

Your great grandfather's watch is a railroad watch, one that was widely accepted into railroad time service at the time it was built.

Having gathered and printed out information about a family watch, it is a wise idea to write out as much as you know about the family member to whom the watch originally belonged - or as far back as you can go, including (and clearly identifying) what you can guess. Then, add the names and relationships of the family members who passed it down to the current holder. Make up a booklet with this and all of the watch information and try to keep it with the watch. You might even include a CD or, better yet, a USB thumb drive with copies of the pictures or information, in addition to the printouts. Even though they may not be readable 100 years from now, some more recent descendent may transfer the files to the then current format and media. This way, the watch has real family heritage instead of it just being an old family watch, the identity and relationship of the original owner having been lost in the distant past.

Unfortunately, many of the links in our Encyclopedia articles were disrupted when we changed to the current version of our Message Board and its been a long process getting them all reinstated. So, if you come across a broken link, please report it here.

Please feel free to ask about anything that isn't clear to you.

Good luck,

 

[NGEN33R]

Hi NGEN33R:

Please add my welcome to Rob's

To add to the good information you've already learned:

Please excuse me if I repeat some of what you already know, it's easier for me this way. Checking the references listed in the Hampden Watch Co. Encyclopedia article (and looking at your pictures), Hampden movement serial number 1,980,551 can be seen to be
a 16-size,
model 4,
grade No. 105,
Adjusted to Temperature, Five Positions and Isochronism,
lever-set,
open-face movement,
having 21 jewels,
and a Patent Regulator.
The movement is fitted with a double-sunk, Arabic dial having a R5MT (Red 5 Minute Track).
It was built in about 1906, give or take a year or so.

You can see a catalog description of the No. 105 grade on page 32 of the September 1909 W.J. Johnson Price List (below)

Your great grandfather's watch is a railroad watch, one that was widely accepted into railroad time service at the time it was built.

Having gathered and printed out information about a family watch, it is a wise idea to write out as much as you know about the family member to whom the watch originally belonged - or as far back as you can go, including (and clearly identifying) what you can guess. Then, add the names and relationships of the family members who passed it down to the current holder. Make up a booklet with this and all of the watch information and try to keep it with the watch. You might even include a CD or, better yet, a USB thumb drive with copies of the pictures or information, in addition to the printouts. Even though they may not be readable 100 years from now, some more recent descendent may transfer the files to the then current format and media. This way, the watch has real family heritage instead of it just being an old family watch, the identity and relationship of the original owner having been lost in the distant past.

Unfortunately, many of the links in our Encyclopedia articles were disrupted when we changed to the current version of our Message Board and its been a long process getting them all reinstated. So, if you come across a broken link, please report it here.

Please feel free to ask about anything that isn't clear to you.

Good luck,

View attachment 759493 View attachment 759495 View attachment 759494

Again this is an awesome piece if information. I added some of the information that I know to Pocket Watch Database: Information and Serial Numbers for American Pocket Watches. I don't want to ruin the surprise, but after his birthday I will sit down and get as much information from him about this and fully document it on that page and then download a digital copy to save. I will also update the backstory here as well. Here is what I know thus far:

First Family owner (not sure if original purchaser, assuming purchase happened in the United States)
Attilio - Immigrated from Italy to the US VIA Ellis Island ~1914 (watch possibly purchased 2nd hand)
Passed down to 1st Son Aldo ~1957
Passed down to Grandson Wayne (I know great Italian name huh) ~ December 2011
Gifted back August 2023
Passed back to me TBD
Will be passed down to my Son Aldo TBD

 

[NGEN33R]

So I did a little digging on the back story and from what was remembered, it appears that my Great Grandfather who did not speak English well at the time was took by a dishonest Jeweler. The way it was worded to me was "That guy was a crook and took advantage of the fact that my Father did not speak or fully understand." I have no way to verify this as fact, so it will remain a mystery, but that part of the story will stay with the history and I thought I would share that with those interested in the back story.


Watch Update:
I did source a dial that is a 99% match. The only difference is that the replacement has Canton,Ohio on the face where the one I have does not. I also received the mentioned book and read through it. I found it surprising that neither of these dials are pictured in this book. I most likely will send the original out to have the enamel repaired but I will also have a temporary replacement.

I am torn on what to do with the case, I really like the idea of using a display case. I found a cheap hanging case on eBay that has a clear front and back. I am considering buying one of those and seeing if a local jeweler can duplicate that in solid 14K. If anything like that already exists, please share.

16S Mainliner Display Salesman "Clear Back" POCKET WATCH CASE - Rose Gold PLATED | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for 16S Mainliner Display Salesman "Clear Back" POCKET WATCH CASE - Rose Gold PLATED at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

www.ebay.com

 

[Christopher Burris]

Based on my inventory, I don't think the dial is that uncommon. I own only a few Hampden watches and have this WM McKinley 21 jewel....I'm just saying they're out there.

 

[musicguy]

I am considering buying one of those and seeing if a local jeweler can duplicate that in solid 14K

If you have an unlimited budget this might be suitable.
I would just say if you want 14k, buy a vintage 14k case
at market value for the gold.



Rob

 

[NGEN33R]

Based on my inventory, I don't think the dial is that uncommon. I own only a few Hampden watches and have this WM McKinley 21 jewel....I'm just saying they're out there.

View attachment 760556 View attachment 760557

Where would I find a vintage 14K plain case that would be safe to buy from? it is unfortunately hard to trust online transactions these days.

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

Where would I find a vintage 14K plain case that would be safe to buy from? it is unfortunately hard to trust online transactions these days.

Please tell us more. I bought a watch from America in February this year, no pocket watch and no money back. The seller has now disappeared. Please do not mention eBay, it makes me ill.

 

[Christopher Burris]

In 25 year of buying on EBay, with over 700 purchases I've had only one clearly dishonest seller, but 100's of great purchases. It's a dumping ground for many families when selling off jewelry, fresh to the market, sometimes quite rare.

 

[NGEN33R]

Any luck digging that Hampden out? I have been super busy with a 9month pregnant wife so I have not had time to follow up.

 

[SmithyMoarra]

I would purchase a new case from a NAWCC watch show or check ebay!

 

[NGEN33R]

I am providing an update to this. I still have not found the exact dial, but I did find a nice display case with crystals on both sides. I also decided to tackle this repair myself. From the local watch shops the price is roughly equivalent of buying all the tools. I am cliff diving head first as the balance shaft is broken and I purchased a staking set to repair it. Wish me luck! I will provide pictures as I progress along. The watch and a donor parts watch are stripped and ready for cleaning. I have to use a small dedicated ultrasonic as a watch cleaning machine is not in the budget right now. Feeling excited. Side note: Why are Bergeon tools so damn expensive? Yikes they add up fast.

 

[terry hall]

Best of luck to you on this project...

just wanted to bring up on point on the case.. this Hampden and Getty Illinois movement have an "odd" position for the setting lever... about 8 minutes versus 6 minutes for most others...

the slot can be altered but usually is not 'pretty' in the end product.

If you found a Hampden Skeleton case, that would be a plus, but many of the Hampden Skeleton cases did not have a provision for a bow...

just some decent points to consider....

and sometimes having someone to clean and staff may be more economical in the long-term that procuring the equipment for self repair.

 

[gmorse]

Hi NGEN33R,

just some decent points to consider....

and sometimes having someone to clean and staff may be more economical in the long-term that procuring the equipment for self repair.

I strongly endorse Terry's comments; learning the niceties of watch repair on a piece which is clearly so valuable to you and your family is not a good plan. Even when you have all the necessary tools, you still have to learn how to use them, and that inevitably involves some breakages, losses and disasters. Your enthusiasm to do the work yourself is most commendable, but please don't practice on this watch.

If time is important to you for his 100th birthday, I would recommend that you take it to a competent professional, then you can take up the study of watchmaking afterwards and take things more slowly if you decide to explore that path.

Regards,

Graham