My first Westminster chime

[Vernon]

I see photos that people have put a arrow or circle on how is that done ? ( please excuse a old mans question) not really tech savvy.
Dell

I download the photo to the computer (click on a picture then look for the download button). Find picture in your downloads and there should be (edit/create) button once the picture is up. Left click/hold/draw. Look for the erasure on same page.

 

[tracerjack]

If I understand your question, the adjustable long detent that is on the arbor for the lifter (has a set screw) is set by loosening the set screw and adjusting it so that when the lifter is partially lifted on the center star arm, the detent will catch the pin on the wheel. Then, when the lifter drops off the star arm, that long arm detent will drop out of the way of the pin. This long detent does not lock the chime train, but only interrupts it. When the chime sequence is finished, it is locked by the detent on the long lever. As for the circles and arrows. I bring the picture into Photoshop application and add the graphics.

 

[Dells]

Thanks tracerjack
I have it set so it just catches before any lift from arm, I will have another look because if that is in the wrong position that not helping things.
Dell

 

[tracerjack]

When the star arm lifts the lifter enough it will free the chime train to run. The long detent must be in a position to catch the pin as it begins to turn. Since the tip of the long detent is fairly wide, it may work where you have it now as long as it releases the pin when the lifter drops.

 

[Dells]

Many thanks Simon tracerjack & others who helped me, I think I have it sorted now, I know I said I could not get to it until Wednesday but it’s been bugging me so I have it on the dining table ( much to the wife’s annoyance) not totally back together but at least I can sleep easy tonight, anyway I think I made a very newbie mistake in that as both leavers on front plate moved up I assumed the warning pin stop arm had to move up to release the pin when it should drop to release, we live and learn and don’t make the same mistake again (hopefully)
Once again many thanks Dell

 

[Simon Holt]

Once again many thanks Dell

You're welcome, Dell. As for your "newbie error" – we've all been there and done that! And frankly, I probably learn more from my mistakes than I learn from reading! What you've been through here will stand you in good stead for your second Westminster chime...

Simon

 

[Dells]

Hi all
I have finally been able to get back to my Westminster chime but although everything works it’s a bit like Morcombe & wise all the right notes but not necessarily in the right order, in that it chimes the full hour and the 1/4 hour then the hour strike, I have set it up according to instructions Simon pointed to ( I think ), but I must have something wrong.
Dell

 

[Simon Holt]

Hi Dell

If you could post four videos of the front plate of the clock, showing what happens at the quarter, the half, the three-quarters and at the top of the hour it might help us diagnose what's going on.

Simon

 

[Dells]

Thanks Simon I will get that done ASAP.
Dell

 

[Dells]

Videos as requested but it’s all over the place but hopefully it will show something.

Dell

 

[Dells]

Just as an afterthought I think the locking plate must be in the wrong place because it has I pin on the back of it that moves the small leaver that hangs down from the lifting leaver behind the locking plate ( I think that’s what the round four position cam is called ) see picture that is I think something to do with auto correct

Without the locking plate on it warns, runs and locks.
Dell

 

[Simon Holt]

Dell, thanks for posting the videos. I think I can hazard a guess as to what the problem is.

Without the locking plate on it warns, runs and locks.

I think that's the smoking gun. Try taking the locking plate off, and trigger the chime. When the chime run finishes, put the locking plate back on so that the tab on the long lever is down in one of the slots on the locking plate.

You are right that the pin on the back of the locking plate is responsible for auto-correction. The lever that the pin bears on is designed to hold the train in warning (by keeping the lifter partially raised) until the extra high lift from the star cam occurs at the top of the hour - in other words, it holds the chime train in the three-quarter position until the top of the hour.

Simon

 

[Dells]

Hi Simon
I think I have it sorted, I think it was a combination of to things , the warning leaver would only catch the pin sometimes so needed a very slight adjustment, and I had the locking plate set to the start of the 1/4 hour and it should have been just after it had finished, fingers crossed anyway, I am letting it run for a while just to check.
Thanks for your help Dell

 

[Simon Holt]

Nice one Dell.

Tiny adjustments can make a big difference, but once you understand the sequence (and especially if you control the speed of the run with your finger so you can witness the interaction) it becomes easier to spot the solution.

Simon

 

[Dells]

Hi Simon
It seems ok now but it didn’t chime or strike the hour once for some reason but has been ok since lunch time, do freshly serviced clocks sometimes need to settle down ?

 

[Simon Holt]

Hi Simon
It seems ok now but it didn’t chime or strike the hour once for some reason but has been ok since lunch time, do freshly serviced clocks sometimes need to settle down ?

Hmmm... See what happens over the next few days. If it fails more than once, try to establish what the failures have in common (e.g. every 12 hours). And then try to catch it in the act of failing. I sometimes leave a CCTV camera recording a clock so I can review the footage.
Simon

 

[tracerjack]

...It seems ok now but it didn’t chime or strike the hour once for some reason but has been ok since lunch time, do freshly serviced clocks sometimes need to settle down ?

I think so, although I've nothing scientific to back up that opinion.

 

[shutterbug]

Yes, clocks do have a break-in time for adjusting to new bushings and parts. Usually not too long though - a day or two.

 

[Dells]

Well this clock is still causing me problems, most of the time it chimes and strikes fine but then it won’t but when I advance the hand to get correct time it is chiming again, it never does it at a specific time or position that I can see, so if anyone can make any suggestions as to what could be causing it it would be very much appreciated.
Dell

 

[tracerjack]

When you say “it won’t” do you mean it doesn’t chime at all, or that the chimes are out of sync with the time?

 

[Dells]

Hi Tracerjack
I doesn’t chime but when I turn the hand to get chime back in sequence it chimes and it’s okay again for a while.
On my previous post I said I moved the hand to reset the time, it should have said chime.
Dell

 

[Vernon]

Is there any movement (play) in the center shaft? On the Hermle, some people have noted wear in the bearing area that has caused chiming issues.

 

[shutterbug]

I get the impression from your description that the auto-sync function might be hosing things up. When you manually move the hand to correct it, does it correct when the hand hits the 12? It would really be good to know when it misses. It's hard to catch an occasional miss, but there might be some consistency that would help us.
Another possibility is that the auto-sync is just doing its job, and that the real problem is that the chime is passing the stop sometimes (double chiming).

 

[Simon Holt]

Another possibility is that the auto-sync is just doing its job, and that the real problem is that the chime is passing the stop sometimes (double chiming).

The videos in post #60 show it failing to stop, but that was corrected (according to post #63). But maybe it crept back in...

Simon

 

[tracerjack]

Not chiming at all, but then chiming when moved to the next quarter also sounds to me that the chime correction is not set correctly or is not performing consistently. Just want to verify what you have done, since this is a long thread. I did go through it all, but often the terms used and responses were not clear to me. Did you;
1. sync the longest arm of the center star cam with the minute hand?
2. set the longest star arm in sync with the chime correction?
3. once those were set, replaced the locking plate at 3/4 position?

 

[Dells]

Sorry if my ramblings are not clear but as this was and still is my first three train clock please be gentle with me, I have stripped the movement again just to check that I hadn’t bent a pivot (all fine ) , if I watch when movement approaches the chime the fly starts to move but sometimes it doesn’t complete, but if I move the hands nothing happens until I get to 12 then it will run both the chime and strike and it will also chime on the 1/4-1/2-3/4 and it may be okay for hours or minutes but sooner or later it will not chime again but not at a consistent time or place, how critical is the position of the warning detent?.
Tracerjack
Not sure about questions 1 & 2 I did not remove centre cam from arbor, but question 3 everything I have read said set locking plate to just after the 1/4 hour but you say 3/4 have I got it wrong then ? But it chimes correct when it’s chiming .
Shutterbug
An intermittent fault is the hardest thing to find.
I can’t alter anything on the auto correct part as it’s just a pin on back of locking plate and a riveted arm hanging off the long leaver ( no wear and not to loose that I can see ) also no wear that I can see on centre shaft.
I just want to say many thanks for everyone’s help and I hope this post helps you help me to get this sorted Dell

 

[tracerjack]

On question #1, the center star cam does not need to be removed. But, it does have one arm longer than the other three. That longest arm needs to trigger the hour chime, which is why it must be synced with the minute hand. The longest star arm is the only one long enough to release the chime correction.
For #2, since only the longest star arm can release the chime correction, they need to work together at the hour mark. So the chime correction must match the longest star arm as well.
For #3, when the longest star arm is ready to trip the hour, the locking plate must be sitting in the 3/4 position. Then, when the minute hand reaches the hour, the longest star arm will lift the lifter high enough to release the chime correction in order to play the 4/4 chime and then initiate the strike.

If the chime correction happens at incorrect times, it will lock the chimes and won't release them until the longest star arm lifts it free.

As this is your first chimer, I understand how confusing it is. It was not your responses, but that I could not find in the sequence of posts if you had followed the proper order for setting up a chimer.

 

[Dells]

Surely if it chimes correct most of the time ( it doesn’t chime wrong when it chimes ) it must be setup correctly unless I am missing something ( entirely possible) I am an old man after all.
The minute hand is set in line with the longest lobe on centre cam and the locking plate is in 3/4 slot.

 

[tracerjack]

No, it can chime correctly even if the chime correction is not working properly. But after silencing the chime, when turned back on, the chime will not correct itself if the chime correction is not set up properly.

Since I now know the longest star arm, the minute hand and the locking plate are synced, then the chime correction must be in sync since it is on the back of the locking plate. Your movement looks very much like my Perivale. The only difference I can see is that the locking plates are a different pattern. But mine uses the back of the locking plate as well for the chime correction, and it has the same tab hanging from the lifter. See center photo in post #52. That might be a place to look, to make sure that the back of the plate is functioning properly with the tab on the lifter.

 

[Dells]

I checked the warning detent with magnifying glass and although the pin was very very close to the detent so I have moved it very slightly because it’s possible it could touching sometimes, I am going to let it run overnight, then if still doing it that will have counted something else out ( fingers crossed ) is there a rule of thumb when setting the warning detent?
Thanks Dell

 

[tracerjack]

Only that it must drop out of the way and release the pinned warn wheel when the lifter drops.

 

[shutterbug]

If the chime correction occurs when the minute hand is up (12) then the hand is on correctly. If it occurs at the 3,6, or 9 the hand is on wrong.

 

[Dells]

Well I think it must have been the detent as it has chimed correct for two days ( touch wood ) but it keeps stopping now so something is wrong there now but I will get there.

 

[Dells]

Well it wasn’t the warning detent but I have found out what it was ( I think ) the idiot that put it back together ( ME ) put the strike leaver retention sleeve against the inside of the backplate instead of the inside of the frontplate so the leaver could move out and catch the long leaver.

 

[tracerjack]

Good detective work, Dells. You can add that knowledge to your growing education on chimers. Be sure not to put the retaining collar too tight against the front plate. Leave a little "end shake" so the lever can drop freely.

 

[Dells]

Yes I have left a little gap for end shake, but I can’t understand why when I put the one on the long leaver shaft against the front plate I would put the other one against the backplate, I am putting it down to age.

 

[shutterbug]

It's all a learning experience. You'll probably never do that again. It's all good