My First English Dial Clock - Payne at Ludlow

[WIngraham]

I finally pulled the trigger on my first English dial clock, albeit a humble one. After seeing the amazing variety displayed here, and guidance given by fellow members, it was only a matter of time. Can't let you guys have all the fun. I believe this clock is by George (II) Payne of Ludlow (d. 1868). I was told 1840s?

Chris Radano was kind enough to pick it up for me and make sure it got packed with sense and care, and it was greatly appreciated. The way some of these "professionals" pack things, is really sad. Dumb, cheap and lazy sums it up (no I'm not going to be nice about it). Excitement can turn to heartbreak real quick. Can really dampen things for us collectors. There are some companies out there that know what they are doing.

The dial itself is 11.75'' and the total width is 15'', so should be easy to find a good spot for it. The craquelure on the dial is pretty even, and I like the overall look. This clock is ready to hang, which is something I am not used to. Nice for a change. lol

The movement is a solid single fusee timepiece. Always amazes me how well-built English movements are, they certainly did not believe in skimping on materials. It has a great set of hands (havent got a chance to put it back together yet for a complete pic) and runs well. I think this one will be my first disassembly of a fusee, I plan to run it so I want to make sure everything is clean. Including the mainsprings.

The side door was broken off, so I reglued it and will keep the losses as is, for now. I believe both doors are replacements, as they do not quite match on the inside. The inside bottom of the box has a groove as if it once had a lock, so I know that the bottom door is a replacement. If anyone has gotten this far, I do have some questions about the case. When the pegs are in place, there is a gap between the top notch of wood and the top of the box, does this mean that the box and dial may not be original together? Maybe they are from separate clocks? The only other dial clock I have handled (a magnificent one) does not have this gap, so I have no idea.

Any opinions and further information are welcome and appreciated. Here is an abbreviated (for me) gallery since my work bench(es) are currently full!

Anyone reading this, feel free to post a pic of your first English dial clock. Will make this thread more interesting.

Will

 

[novicetimekeeper]

Looking good, I have that style of surround on one of my 8" dials.

 

[Chris Radano]

I was impressed with that clock. I think the case is probably original although there are a couple things that are unexplained.
On the back of the surround, the wood strip near the top is usually lined up to rest on the top of the box and acts as a guide to assemble the case. This clock, the wood piece is above the top of the box and does not appear to have any purpose.
And the side door which was broken has it's hinges fastened on a thin wood piece, and then mounted on the side of the box. Maybe the side door is replaced because the inside is a lighter color but I still think it is likely original. The doors look like solid mahogany and the carcass is oak. And then the back board looks like pine.
Also the nice hands are thick and blued, the cast bezel is solid and has nice putty (new putty?) to mount a thick inner ring and thick glass. Also nice aged original dial with signature and chapter ring still intact.
Looks like 1840s and very presentable in spite of the side damage.

I bought a drop dial from that auction. Have not posted it yet. But the carcass on mine is pine. The doors on mine were replaced but are not as nice as yours. On mine there are a couple cheesy case repairs including the doors. You clock's case is good quality.

 

[foxpup]

Fascinating, especially the cable assembly that seems to be tuned to keep a near-constant torque while the main-spring "discharges". (or at least that seems to be what it is all about.) Way cool IMHO.

 

[foxpup]

I'm guessing there's a ratchet in the "tornado" shaped gear/cable-take-up-assembly so the clock can actually be wound up without the hands moving fast and coliding with the winding key. The only ratchet I can see is on the mainspring drum and that doesn't seem to be accessible from the front, which makes sense considering the cable has to be mostly removed from it for the clock to be wound and you can't push a wet noodle.

 

[Mike Phelan]

I'm guessing there's a ratchet in the "tornado" shaped gear/cable-take-up-assembly so the clock can actually be wound up without the hands moving fast and coliding with the winding key. The only ratchet I can see is on the mainspring drum and that doesn't seem to be accessible from the front, which makes sense considering the cable has to be mostly removed from it for the clock to be wound and you can't push a wet noodle.

It's a typical English Dial (qv) clock using a fusee to maintain a fairly constant torque over the week as it runs down. Winding is always using a key, never with the hands.
The ratchet on the front plate you see is only used during repairs - when you wind it there's a ratchet inside the great wheel attached to the fusee and cannot be seen.
HTH.
Don't know what you mean about removing cable during winding and wet noodles

 

[novicetimekeeper]

I was impressed with that clock. I think the case is probably original although there are a couple things that are unexplained.
On the back of the surround, the wood strip near the top is usually lined up to rest on the top of the box and acts as a guide to assemble the case. This clock, the wood piece is above the top of the box and does not appear to have any purpose.
And the side door which was broken has it's hinges fastened on a thin wood piece, and then mounted on the side of the box. Maybe the side door is replaced because the inside is a lighter color but I still think it is likely original. The doors look like solid mahogany and the carcass is oak. And then the back board looks like pine.
Also the nice hands are thick and blued, the cast bezel is solid and has nice putty (new putty?) to mount a thick inner ring and thick glass. Also nice aged original dial with signature and chapter ring still intact.
Looks like 1840s and very presentable in spite of the side damage.

I bought a drop dial from that auction. Have not posted it yet. But the carcass on mine is pine. The doors on mine were replaced but are not as nice as yours. On mine there are a couple cheesy case repairs including the doors. You clock's case is good quality.

I think the pine backboard is because it is a late clock, as you say the redundant bit of wood is odd.

 

[foxpup]

It's a typical English Dial (qv) clock using a fusee to maintain a fairly constant torque over the week as it runs down. Winding is always using a key, never with the hands.
The ratchet on the front plate you see is only used during repairs - when you wind it there's a ratchet inside the great wheel attached to the fusee and cannot be seen.
HTH.
Don't know what you mean about removing cable during winding and wet noodles

Perhaps I used a local coloquialism. "Pushing a wet noodle" is a physical representation of how you cannot easily use a device made for pulling, like a rope, chain, or cable, to do pushing. It seems that the spring-drum and what I'm learning is called the "fusee" (from you - thanx ) are constantly in tension between each other along the cable...constantly pulling on it. (not pushing)

It may be classic design, but it was new to me and someone sure was thinking when they came up with it. Beautiful.

Thanks for taking the time to explain things.

 

[daveR]

Humble? It's a very niceclock, well maintained it will go for a long time, enjoy it
David

 

[gmorse]

Hi foxpup,

It may be classic design, but it was new to me and someone sure was thinking when they came up with it.

The 'someone' who came up with the fusee will probably never be known, the origins are lost in the mists of antiquity. Leonardo da Vinci was interested in the system and made many drawings of variations, but it was invented long before his time.

The great wheel on the bottom of the fusee is what drives the movement and there's a ratchet system between the wheel and the fusee cone to allow winding, and in some instances, there's also a maintaining power arrangement in there as well, (invented by John Harrison), so that the movement isn't stopped by the winding action.

Regards,

Graham