Musical Longcase Clock

Discussion in 'Your Newest Clock Acquisition' started by Djulz, Jul 10, 2010.

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  1. Djulz

    Djulz Registered User

    Apr 24, 2010
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    Hi Forum,
    I bought an unsigned pagoda longcase musical clock at an auction in rural Australia. It plays seven tunes on a carrillon of 12 bells struck by 12 hammers. It chimes the hours and plays the selected tune immediately after. The provenance of the clock is unknown. Its previous owner was adamant it was from the USA, indeed he claimed it was an Embree.

    It was not keeping time at purchase with a "runaway" action if the weight was attached to the train, rendering an 8 day movement to about 45 minutes. The musical train was intact.

    The works have been professionally overhauled.

    The movement is signed on the front plate Handley & Moore 2607.

    There are no other discernible marks.

    I have put up an album with pictures in place of further prose.

    I can find little on H&M musical longcase movements on the net, some on musical brackets.
    This site mentioned what sounds a magnificent musical movement made for the Turkish market-I wonder what exotic tunes it played!!
    Mine plays sweet, slightly formal dances, not folk songs with a ready tune nor hymns nor psalms. They play for 40-100 seconds depending on the blades' setting.

    I would be grateful for your opinions and appraisals; it is an unusual clock and may well be a marriage clock; perhaps even Anglo-American after all!
    Lack of similar examples is reasonable cause for skepticism.

    A cynical relative thinks it is a reproduction but I think this less likely.

    I would be happy to provide further photos or recordings should anyone request them.

    I will try and clip 2-3 pics to this post and have put about 12 pics in an album titled Handley & Moore,

    Gratefully,

    Djulz
     

    Attached Files:

  2. jmclaugh

    jmclaugh Registered User

    Jun 1, 2006
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    Handley & Moore were both apprentices of John Thwaites (of Thwaites & Reed) and set up in partnership in Clerkenwell, London from 1798 until Handley died in 1824 whereupon Moore continued in business as John Moore & Sons. They are known to stamp their movements on the frontplate along with a serial number which is possibly a practice they adopted from Thwaites & Reed who did the same though unlike them I am not aware of any dating information on their serial #s.

    I haven't seen a LC movement by them before let alone a musical one so it is quite interesting to see one, they are usually associated with bracket and dial clocks, by this time London makers had generally abandoned making LCs. I don't see any obvious reason to consider it a marriage.
     
  3. laprade

    laprade Registered Users

    Sep 10, 2008
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    Irish, but live in Laprade, 16390, France, (70 mil
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    Djulz,

    The white plain face seems at odds to the rest of it, and leads me to think that it was specially made for client. Most plain dialed clocks of that era, were usually silvered brass.

    The case looks to be excellent quality and needs a better look at, as the picture you posted is hard to view.

    I must admit, it does seem strange that someone insists it is American.
     
  4. Djulz

    Djulz Registered User

    Apr 24, 2010
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    Thanks Laprade,
    More photos of case.
    The relatively simple painted face and double arch on hood were the reasons the previous owner believed the clock to be from the USA-erroneously it would seem.
    Djulz
     

    Attached Files:

  5. laprade

    laprade Registered Users

    Sep 10, 2008
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    Irish, but live in Laprade, 16390, France, (70 mil
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    Djulz: Thanks for the extra pics.

    A few questions: the base has a quartered applied panel, I can see it is an applied one, but not sure about the corners. The image in the pagoda top, any chance of a close up. I am also interested in the hood fixing arrangements: does it have two slides to keep it in place, and are the trunk door top moulds solid or section. last, for the moment: is there any hood locking arrangement. 1/ Staple like piece of steel, that goes through a slot in the face frame, and engages a slide bolt hidden up behind the top of the trunk. or 2/ key and lock on the hood door.

    I see it has its original ogee feet: a lot were replaced with plinths, when being repaired; cheaper!

    There is a similar clock case featured in this thread: it has been through the wars, but it did survive, the many repairs!

    http://www.mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?t=55835
     
  6. Djulz

    Djulz Registered User

    Apr 24, 2010
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    Thanks for your interest. I do appreciate the knowledgeable opinions and assessments.

    I provide more photos in response to your questions.
    There is a lock/keyhole on the door of the hood.
    There is a pretty dodgy block of wood on a flat head screw designed to turn and steady the hood on the case. It is not secure.
    Djulz
    -> posts merged by system <-
    Base and Inside Hood
    Djulz
     

    Attached Files:

  7. laprade

    laprade Registered Users

    Sep 10, 2008
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    Djulz: fine set of pictures!

    I see the feet are in fact "external brackets with a connecting decorated skirt". Probably original, going by the repair on one corner. I see the hood securing device: not unlike those you see on the fronts of dressers, to keep the doors shut. A friend of mine, here in France, has a clock with a similar arrangement. If you don't know it is there, it can be a problem!

    The case is an 18th c one, and ranks with some of London's finest. You only have to trawl through the high-profile sites to see similar.

    One of the things that amaze many people is the scruffy nature of what lies out of sight: the inside of the hood is a fine example of that!

    A real find, no doubt about it!
     
  8. Sooth

    Sooth Registered User
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    Feb 19, 2005
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    Beautiful clock. Any chance we could hear it playing?

    What does the pendulum look like? It appears to have a wide metal rod (rather than the more common thin, round, metal rod).
     
  9. Djulz

    Djulz Registered User

    Apr 24, 2010
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    I was asked a while back for some sound and video bytes for this Handley and Moore Musical longcase.
    I have tried buty net and tech skills are not up to muster.

    I have some video/audio but in mp4 format and do not know how to share it.
    Video is so dense now.
    Will send a sample.
    If interest will try some more.

    Cheers
    Djulz
     
  10. Sooth

    Sooth Registered User
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    Feb 19, 2005
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    YouTube is the easiest place to share a video.
     
  11. Djulz

    Djulz Registered User

    Apr 24, 2010
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    Marriage, Musical Clocks and Musings,
    I love the nurturing reassuring tick of a big clock. My wife hates it. Every night, poor "Handley" gets shut down, not just switched to silent.
    The yappy, Japy carriage clock was put away years ago. I am losing my chrono-mojo...
    But the days are getting longer in Oz and the sun is shifting back into a higher part of the sky, coming through the window at a different angle, drawing attention at sunrise to my clock's face.
    It is not white, it's off white. It is quite shiny. It is not attracted by a magnet. How can one tell if the face is paint or enamel?
    Does it matter?
    Do I trade the wife or the clock?
     
  12. Joeydeluxed

    Joeydeluxed Registered User
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    Appears to be a very typical "London" style case. One easy and quick way to tell whether its an American case vs. and English case is the
    secondary wood. Is the wood in the back of the door and/or the backboard oak? If it is you can be nearly 100% certain it was made
    in the UK as I have NEVER seen an American long case clock of this period use oak as either a secondary or even primary wood.
     
  13. Djulz

    Djulz Registered User

    Apr 24, 2010
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    Pine in the hood. Mahogany throughout the case, including back board and door. It is the dial that has me intrigued. It is just so... Plain, but beautiful in its simplicity.
     
  14. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User
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    Jul 26, 2015
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    Mahogany was (and is again) far too expensive to use as a backboard. It was not used in clocks until the latter part of the 18th century in the UK, though it had already been used in other furniture for around 30 years. In a London case you would expect to see mahogany veneer on an oak carcase, and many London clocks had oak backboards.

    I don't know when solid mahogany was used for furniture in the UK, the only pieces I have that are not veneer are early 20th century.

    I have a stock of mahogany in my garage obtained from breaking up mahogany pallets but that is pretty low grade stuff.
     
  15. Djulz

    Djulz Registered User

    Apr 24, 2010
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    Hi Novicetimekeeper,

    I sense irony somehow.
    This is a weird clock.
    Happy to send a photo or two if that would help. Would it help?

    But what about the dial and my spouse?
    More discussion encouraged.
    Laprade, Sooth please put me out of my misery!

    With thanks

    Djulz
     
  16. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User
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    Jul 26, 2015
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    irony?

    You can change your spouse, my ex would not countenance a longcase clock in the house, now I have 7 and dial and bracket clocks too.

    We may be reaching the limit or another relationship change could occur.

    If the dial plate is not ferromagnetic is it brass? Quite hard to get paint to adhere to brass, the conventional approach would be to engrave, wax, and silver. Especially for Handley and Moore.
     
  17. Djulz

    Djulz Registered User

    Apr 24, 2010
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    Hi Nick,
    It is brass. more over it is cut from a piece that was to be used for a dial-because you can see the outlines of marks and roman numerals on the back plate for a dial that was designed to be 12 inches rather than the 11 inches on this longcase.
    Apart from the switching mechanisms for strike silent and tune selection, there are no other markings or holes in the clock face.
    So if you did not PAINT brass, could you ENAMEL it? Happy to send a pic if interested. I have no idea.


    Julian, overwhelmed,started too late.
     
  18. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User
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    paint, enamel, they are all a bit vague as terms, I think Brian Loomes calls them white dials for that reason. An etch primer usually works on brass if you get it clean and grease free. Can we see the reverse of the dial?
     
  19. Djulz

    Djulz Registered User

    Apr 24, 2010
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    Hi Nick,
    Pictures to include dial, rear and front and some of back board of case.
    Can you see the curves marked on the back of a dial? It is hard to capture them with flash. The white dial is 11 inches, the backboard looks like they had planned 12 inches.[​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
     
  20. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User
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    I like the detail in the hands, though they seem rather long for the dial design.
     
  21. Peter A. Nunes

    Peter A. Nunes Super Moderator
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    Might the dial be repainted? If so, that could explain the plainness. The lack of wear around the winding holes, and the odd lack of rings around the indicator hands make me wonder.
     
  22. RAK

    RAK Registered User
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    Hi Djulz,

    Keep the wife and the clock. She at least lets you keep the clock in a main room of the house. Let her know you are going to run the clock on special occasions.

    Years ago, I had convinced my wife to let me hang my Sidney Advertising Clock in the entrance way of our home. But when I ran that thing with the rollers hooked up, every five minutes the bell would ring and the rollers would rotate and they would clunk about as they settled in. The sound being something akin to three car doors being closed in quick succession the next room. Well that didn't last long. Pretty soon I was getting the "look" about "that clock" and although I like my clock I like her more and the roller mechanism was detached.

    Which ever way you choose, let us know :D

    Bob
     
  23. Bruce Barnes

    Bruce Barnes Registered User
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    Absolutely beautiful !! did you ever get a recording of the music?
    Bruce
     
  24. Djulz

    Djulz Registered User

    Apr 24, 2010
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    Hi Bruce,
    I listen to it every day!!
    Sooth suggested posting video on the "You tube".
    I must say he sounds very progressive!
    Would a "soundtrack" fit on the narrow bandwidth the nawcc message board bandwidth provides? Would anyone-else be interested?
    I request advice out of ignorance, not lack of enthusiasm.
    As John Keats requested his epitaph: "here lies one whose name was writ in water" my abiding desire, with complete lack of his talent is "here lies one whose disinterest in being left (after life) on the internet was profound"
    But it is a top clock!! Wife out of house today, tunes on repeat! Imagine: a 7 song iPod made in 1800.
     
  25. gleber

    gleber Registered User

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    This has been an enjoyable thread to observe.

    If you take a video and post it you YouTube and then provide a link here, there is no bandwidth issue for the NAWCC website. The video will be stored on, and stream from, YouTube.

    Here is how to upload videos to YouTube:

    Text Tutorials:
    https://photofocus.com/2014/01/08/how-to-post-your-video-to-youtube/
    https://support.google.com/youtube/answer/57407?co=GENIE.Platform%3DDesktop&hl=en

    Video Tutorial:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v:^ZvBuqRxaPs

    Tom
     
  26. Djulz

    Djulz Registered User

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    Thank you Tom,
    I will do it this weekend.
    Julian
     
  27. Djulz

    Djulz Registered User

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    Dear Tom and Forum,
    With the assistance of my wife I have "uploaded" 3 of the seven tunes the clock plays to the Youtube.
    Her enthusiasm for the project was so great, I can only wonder whether she hopes one of you will make an offer on it...

    https://youtu.be/FJe5asahxps
     
  28. Bruce Barnes

    Bruce Barnes Registered User
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    Thanks so much for your effort but there is only an infinitesimal amount of sound............................:(
    Bruce
     
  29. Djulz

    Djulz Registered User

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    Sure?
    It may be a bit muted but its loud enough on Youtube in Australia!
     
  30. Bruce Barnes

    Bruce Barnes Registered User
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    My error I forgot to max the sound........I may be a candidate for a walk-about!
     
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