Music box not activating

Opa

Registered User
Nov 14, 2021
129
8
18
68
Country
The timing between the stop pin, and the notch in the gathering pallet is crucial.
The gathering pallet needs to drop the rack hook - before the stop pin arrives to it's "stopped" position.
I have had the pallet drop it fine during slow testing in hand, then drop it right on top of the pin at normal speed. Just need to twist the pallet on the shaft until it is timed just right.
You gentlemen have been so patient with me and I really appreciate it. As it stands, when I have been re-assembling these Regula movements, the lever is down, the peg in the lever fits snugly into the gathering pallet and the pin in the pinwheel presses up tightly against the tab on the lever. When I say "lever", all three times refer to the same piece. I make sure that those two points are consistent all through the rest of the assembly process. I actually stop and check them several times until I have the four nuts holding the plates together tightly. What I don't understand is that some of them work fine and others which I did exactly the same hang up or ring all the way to the floor. That really does not make any sense at all. I just looked at one which does seem to be working fine right now, it just went through the strike cycle, the lever is down, the peg is snugly in the groove of the gathering pallet and the pinwheel is leaning against the right side of the tab on the lever. Isn't that "right?" As I said, I make sure that every one of them is set up like that as I put them back together.

Do I need to twist the gathering pallet clockwise on the shaft or counterclockwise? Or, should I loosen the top corners of the plates, disconnect the pinwheel so that it doesn't affect the other wheels and rotate it counterclockwise? I must have bought the wrong version of cuckoo clock repair because I'm just not seeing the page that I need to see. I will go back and read it again, perhaps a few more times or buy a few more books as well. I'm more than willing to follow the rules and get it right because the alternative simply isn't acceptable. The reason I ask that question is that it is a real pain to rotate the gathering pallet if it doesn't need it, but if it needs it, I'm more than willing to. I'm just never sure that I rotated it in the correct direction nor far enough nor too far. But, if the peg on the lever fits right into the gathering pallet, it seems that it would be simpler to hold that there and place the pinwheel into the same pivots a few degrees behind so that when the lever does drop, the pinwheel gets stopped cold. My thought is, "Is it possible that when the lever actually falls, the pinwheel has already "just" passed the lever just before it dropped and just keeps on going?" Please guys, I hope you don't think I'm being a wise guy. I'm actually hoping to be able to get reliably skilled with this. That said, this is one of the things which it seems to me that I'm not getting quite right but I surely want to. Please bear with me. I truly want to be able to be of assistance to others who want to do this as well.

I'll back away and let ya'll consider my points and questions. Thank you.
 

POWERSTROKE

Registered User
Jan 11, 2011
1,642
158
63
In a Regula 25 i keep the fan out with the plates together and the nut off that side and the other top nut loose. I have the top lever in without the clip and lock it out in the gathering pallet with my left hand and manually rotate the warning wheel to the stop lever. The plates are loose enough and the fan pivots slide right in. You can't break the pivots for this unless your ham fisted. The problem with rotating the gp is it can throw the timing off for the door.
I will add that if the warning pin is against the stop lever and the pin is in the notch on the gathering pallet, you may have a bent lower tab (the one that rides in the notches on the rack.) it doesn't take much of a bend in this tab to allow it to bounce up a notch when it's supposed to finish. Another thing is make sure you have the helper spring on the front of the movement to the top lever.
To me it sounds like the timing is off or you have an out of position lower tab. I've seen it many times. When the train stops it's should stop with immediacy.
I personally do not take gathering pallets off unless there is west in that pivot hole. It sometimes causes much more trouble than it's worth, especially if it's been off before and the hole in the pallet is not as snug as it should be. There is enough movement in that arbor fore and aft to clean anything out. Another reason is if you bush those rear plate hole it can cause a problem with that coming out when tapping the pallet on. Check the position. Of the gathering pallet with the cannon that whee between the plates. It's important and shouldn't be overlooked
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: roughbarked

Mike Mall

Registered User
Oct 27, 2021
346
114
43
Country
Do I need to twist the gathering pallet clockwise on the shaft or counterclockwise?
That would depend on where the stop pin is when the "lever" falls into the notch on the pallet.

It rotates clockwise when it operates, so if the pin is beyond the lever when it falls under the rack, you would need to adjust it to fall earlier. That would be done by turning it clockwise - advancing it. Since you have the time, and patience, try twisting it both directions to experiment with the results. The cams on the same wheel inside the plates (that move the perch and lock it), are timed to this also. So the adjustments made are very small.

I always remove the gathering pallet during disassembly, and install it with the rack, and lever, during reassembly. Then I use needle nose pliers to grasp it, and twist it for final adjustment, while holding the wheel above with a finger. Obviously this needs to be done with careful hands, no gorilla force.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Opa

POWERSTROKE

Registered User
Jan 11, 2011
1,642
158
63
The gathering pallet can't be just moved around to make it stop correctly. I had a certain alignment with the cam in the center of that wheels arbor.
 

Opa

Registered User
Nov 14, 2021
129
8
18
68
Country
That would depend on where the stop pin is when the "lever" falls into the notch on the pallet.

It rotates clockwise when it operates, so if the pin is beyond the lever when it falls under the rack, you would need to adjust it to fall earlier. That would be done by turning it clockwise - advancing it. Since you have the time, and patience, try twisting it both directions to experiment with the results. The cams on the same wheel inside the plates (that move the perch and lock it), are timed to this also. So the adjustments made are very small.

I always remove the gathering pallet during disassembly, and install it with the rack, and lever, during reassembly. Then I use needle nose pliers to grasp it, and twist it for final adjustment, while holding the wheel above with a finger. Obviously this needs to be done with careful hands, no gorilla force.
That, told me a lot. Thank you.
 

POWERSTROKE

Registered User
Jan 11, 2011
1,642
158
63
That, told me a lot. Thank you.
But you need to understand that if you turn the gathering pallet too far either way to make the pin drop in the notch correctly, you are going to have timing issues with the beginning and end of the strike and the strike may never finish etc. the cam has to point to about 12:30-1 and 6:30-7 when looking from the front.
 
  • Like
Reactions: roughbarked

Opa

Registered User
Nov 14, 2021
129
8
18
68
Country
But you need to understand that if you turn the gathering pallet too far either way to make the pin drop in the notch correctly, you are going to have timing issues with the beginning and end of the strike and the strike may never finish etc. the cam has to point to about 12:30-1 and 6:30-7 when looking from the front.
That was very well explained. By "the cam"(last line there), you mean the gathering pallet, correct? Also, I was looking at the exploded view on an exploded schematic here that the part number 11, the gathering pallet 2nd wheel, the cams on that wheel point to 3 and 9, or is that there just to show where the wheel sits in the workings?
 

POWERSTROKE

Registered User
Jan 11, 2011
1,642
158
63
no, I'm talking about the two black winged cams in the center of the wheel between the plates. When the train is locked they have to be pointing in the direction I said. Many people miss this though
That was very well explained. By "the cam"(last line there), you mean the gathering pallet, correct? Also, I was looking at the exploded view on an exploded schematic here that the part number 11, the gathering pallet 2nd wheel, the cams on that wheel point to 3 and 9, or is that there just to show where the wheel sits in the workings?
 

Mike Mall

Registered User
Oct 27, 2021
346
114
43
Country
Also, I was looking at the exploded view on an exploded schematic here that the part number 11,
Yes the cams that are being referred to are on part #11, they are what look like wings in front of the gear on that wheel. Schöpferrad in the index.

The gathering pallet is #5, listed as Schöpfer in the index.

Translates to "creator wheel" and "creator" - in Google
Is that the correct translation?
 

POWERSTROKE

Registered User
Jan 11, 2011
1,642
158
63
My point was that if you take the gathering pallet off, it needs to be put on in a relative (correct position) so that the timing for the door etc is correct. The gathering pallet cannot just be put on the arbor any way you like. I don't see much reason to take the gathering pallet off of the hole is not worn.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Mike Mall

John P

NAWCC Member
Sep 17, 2010
1,225
166
63
75
North Carolina
Country
Region
If you leave the gathering pallet on the arbor, you will one day wind up taking that movement back apart because the GP wobbles from a previous improper removal.
The best way is to remove the GP, check the straightness of arbor in a lathe and burnish the pivots. They are easy to re-install and need to be reset anyway.

Assuming things are OK without checking gets me in trouble in this business.

Here is my gathering pallet tool. It presses the GP on without knocking out the rear bushing.

20220524_103503.jpg 20220524_103503.jpg
 
  • Like
Reactions: roughbarked

shutterbug

Moderator
Staff member
NAWCC Member
Oct 19, 2005
48,935
2,694
113
North Carolina
Country
Region
I always take gathering pallets off for cleaning. When you re-assemble the movement, your chances of getting the gears running the gathering pallet into the same position they were before are negligible anyway.
 
  • Like
Reactions: roughbarked

Opa

Registered User
Nov 14, 2021
129
8
18
68
Country
After taking that other Regula 25 apart and putting it back together and no improvement I've decided to replace the movement. The new movement should be here in about five weeks. So, now, I am working on another. I had one new R-25 movement and it is now in here. A new music movement arrived on Friday. It took some doing to put in but I managed, I had to drill new holes as the old ones didn't match up and even then, the body of the R-25 was interfering with the drum of the new music movement. It was frozen, wouldn't move for anything. I had to move the music movement about 1/4" toward the back door. Both are inside of the housing now, the R-25 hums along just as it is supposed to but for some reason when the lever pushes down the music lever but nothing happens. Perhaps I need to bend the levers or something but the music does not activate at all. I made this video this morning and here it is if anyone can look at it and tell me what I should do.



Thank you everyone.

Opa
 

Opa

Registered User
Nov 14, 2021
129
8
18
68
Country
If you leave the gathering pallet on the arbor, you will one day wind up taking that movement back apart because the GP wobbles from a previous improper removal.
The best way is to remove the GP, check the straightness of arbor in a lathe and burnish the pivots. They are easy to re-install and need to be reset anyway.

Assuming things are OK without checking gets me in trouble in this business.

Here is my gathering pallet tool. It presses the GP on without knocking out the rear bushing.

View attachment 721868 View attachment 721868
I'll need to make myself one of those.
 

Mike Mall

Registered User
Oct 27, 2021
346
114
43
Country
After taking that other Regula 25 apart and putting it back together and no improvement I've decided to replace the movement. The new movement should be here in about five weeks. So, now, I am working on another. I had one new R-25 movement and it is now in here. A new music movement arrived on Friday. It took some doing to put in but I managed, I had to drill new holes as the old ones didn't match up and even then, the body of the R-25 was interfering with the drum of the new music movement. It was frozen, wouldn't move for anything. I had to move the music movement about 1/4" toward the back door. Both are inside of the housing now, the R-25 hums along just as it is supposed to but for some reason when the lever pushes down the music lever but nothing happens. Perhaps I need to bend the levers or something but the music does not activate at all. I made this video this morning and here it is if anyone can look at it and tell me what I should do

Thank you everyone.

Opa
Welcome back! - good video
It looks like you're back to your original problem of not enough power to turn the drum. Chains binding or something like that.
It looks like the top wire is doing it's job of releasing the drum.
If you have the time, you can remove the movement from the case, and address the music box all on it's own. You can release the drum, and figure out why the darn thing won't turn, on it's own, with the weight it has.
Maybe you should release the dancers again, to see if they are what's stopping the works. (again)

Now that you have a new - un-tampered with movement, you can hold it in your hand and see how everything lines up when it's stopped.
 

Opa

Registered User
Nov 14, 2021
129
8
18
68
Country
Welcome back! - good video
It looks like you're back to your original problem of not enough power to turn the drum. Chains binding or something like that.
It looks like the top wire is doing it's job of releasing the drum.
If you have the time, you can remove the movement from the case, and address the music box all on it's own. You can release the drum, and figure out why the darn thing won't turn, on it's own, with the weight it has.
Maybe you should release the dancers again, to see if they are what's stopping the works. (again)

Now that you have a new - un-tampered with movement, you can hold it in your hand and see how everything lines up when it's stopped.
I cut the overall shaft to be 1/8" longer than the original movement and shaft was but I had to actually put it on 1/4" farther back. It just now occurs to me that at the end of the shaft, the chain is moved 1/8" over to an angle in the wheel at the far end of the shaft. Perhaps that might be binding it up? Tomorrow I'll take the musical movement out, loosen the far wheel from the shaft, slide it to the absolute end and tighten it back down. If that doesn't work, oh golly, that will mean that the shaft is too short and I'll have to order another of those and hope that "shortened" shaft will work in another clock somewhere later on. It seems to be an ever learning matter, this time possibly an expensive one. Thank you Mike.
 

Opa

Registered User
Nov 14, 2021
129
8
18
68
Country
Welcome back! - good video
It looks like you're back to your original problem of not enough power to turn the drum. Chains binding or something like that.
It looks like the top wire is doing it's job of releasing the drum.
If you have the time, you can remove the movement from the case, and address the music box all on it's own. You can release the drum, and figure out why the darn thing won't turn, on it's own, with the weight it has.
Maybe you should release the dancers again, to see if they are what's stopping the works. (again)

Now that you have a new - un-tampered with movement, you can hold it in your hand and see how everything lines up when it's stopped.
I went back to this clock last evening. I even checked the level of it and noticed that some shims would help to level it up. This is when I noticed that the governor in the music movement "wiggled a bit" but didn't spin. The music didn't start but still, with a very light pull down of the weigh, the music played until the pin went into the hole. Is it possible that this movement wasn't oiled before leaving the factory? Should I oil it in the places equal to "pivots" on the clock movement? I plan to start taking it down again in a few minutes (another cup or coffee or two).
 

Mike Mall

Registered User
Oct 27, 2021
346
114
43
Country
The music didn't start but still, with a very light pull down of the weigh, the music played until the pin went into the hole. Is it possible that this movement wasn't oiled before leaving the factory? Should I oil it in the places equal to "pivots" on the clock movement?
Any machine needs lubrication. I would oil the "pivots" just to be sure they are ready to go, anything is possible.
As I recall you fixed the first music box by adding a link to the chain that drives the dancers - maybe you have the same problem after moving this box back.
Separating the components to see how they go alone worked last time.
 
  • Like
Reactions: roughbarked

Opa

Registered User
Nov 14, 2021
129
8
18
68
Country
Any machine needs lubrication. I would oil the "pivots" just to be sure they are ready to go, anything is possible.
As I recall you fixed the first music box by adding a link to the chain that drives the dancers - maybe you have the same problem after moving this box back.
Separating the components to see how they go alone worked last time.
That was actually a different clock and I had to order a new clock movement. This one has a new movement which I just put in as well as a new music movement. I'll oil it and hopefully that will correct it. There seems to be quite adequate slack in the chain connecting the dancing platform to the music movement. Thank you Mike. I'm still a bare rookie at this and sometimes I'm not sure of what and what not to oil but I'll oil the pivots in the music movements.
 

Vernon

NAWCC Member
Dec 9, 2006
1,309
227
63
56
Country
Region
I may be wrong and maybe somebody can confirm but that music movement in post 65 looks like a 36 note which perhaps requires more power to operate? Maybe you should go with a 22 note for a Regula 25.

Vernon
 
  • Like
Reactions: Mike Mall

Mike Mall

Registered User
Oct 27, 2021
346
114
43
Country
I did catch that this was a second clock. But I was suggesting the same approach you used to fix the first one.
It seems to have the same problem to start with, not enough weight to get it turning.
You can address the adjustment of the control wires from the movement -- after you get it to go on it's own.
Vernon made a good point. Maybe you can check that out - see if your standard weight can even move the drum on that box.
Just be sure to have fun, enjoy the challenges.
 

Opa

Registered User
Nov 14, 2021
129
8
18
68
Country
I did catch that this was a second clock. But I was suggesting the same approach you used to fix the first one.
It seems to have the same problem to start with, not enough weight to get it turning.
You can address the adjustment of the control wires from the movement -- after you get it to go on it's own.
Vernon made a good point. Maybe you can check that out - see if your standard weight can even move the drum on that box.
Just be sure to have fun, enjoy the challenges.
Thank you sir. I tested them independently of each other with the music movement in there alone. When I pushed that lever down, it ran all the way through the music and stopped when it was supposed to several times. I'll write to Vernon in a moment. Also, a new development, the ratcheting wheel which is used to raise the weight has quit working properly, if I do give a little bit of downward pressure on the chain, the wheel just turns as the weight goes down but it seems disengaged from the drum. I shall be taking it out and attempt to tighten the set screws on the pulleys, I'm also contacting Time Savers, hope to find a replacement pulley there.
 

Opa

Registered User
Nov 14, 2021
129
8
18
68
Country
I may be wrong and maybe somebody can confirm but that music movement in post 65 looks like a 36 note which perhaps requires more power to operate? Maybe you should go with a 22 note for a Regula 25.

Vernon
Thank you for your observation sir. I thought at the time that I ordered it that it was a 22 tooth but found out just minutes ago that it is a 28 tooth 2-tune. I could re-order the 22 and I might although it costs quite a bit more Fortunately school starts next week and I'll be working again. I have also noticed that I need to order a new drive wheel which goes onto the shaft of the musical movement. The old one is no longer working at all. I'm going to attempt to remedy that by tightening the set screws holding it to the shaft.
It appears that the next weight up is 375 grams. I'll look at ordering one of each. It might even be a good idea to add a second 375 for that other one as well. Thank you sir.

Respectfully,

Opa
 

Forum statistics

Threads
176,376
Messages
1,543,767
Members
53,269
Latest member
stems
Encyclopedia Pages
1,064
Total wiki contributions
3,031
Last update
-