Music box not activating

Opa

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I have rebuilt this Regula 25. The time seems to be good, the bellows sound, the gong hammer swings but the music box does not play. I can pull the weight down and music plays but only if I pull the weight. It currently has 3 320gr weights which as far as I know is the correct weight. Thank you. Hopefully the video attached o.k.
 

Opa

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Is there a trick to posting a video from a cell phone?
 
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Dave T

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No trick. Youtube is the way to go. Just record your video and let Youtube do the work.
 

Steven Thornberry

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The video is currently private. You need to make it public so others can see it.
 

Opa

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Yes, I'm working on that. Hopefully will have it up in the next few minutes
 

Willie X

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Your release is actually way plus. Looks like your MB simply is not running.

I would take the MB out and clamp it to a suitable surface, hang the chain and weight, and see what happens. It should run one cycle each time you press the flat lever at the top. The warning is done by the lower lever and cannot work unless the MB is in the clock. Willie X
 

Opa

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Did you service the music box?
Did you check the endshake on the fly?
Did you check the other pivots and pivot holes for wear?
It would seem that if you have to add power, then there is a power loss occurring.
The music box is brand new, I bought it to go into this clock.
What is the endshake and the fly?
I actually did when I re-assembled it a few days ago and this afternoon when I replaced the strike side chain wheel, I didn't like the way it sounded and had a few sitting around unused and put it in.
It almost seems as if it needs a heavier weight but those 320s have been there since it was brought to my house.

Crazy isn't it? Thank you very much for your suggestions sir and I do hope to learn what "endshake" and "the fly" are. Have a fine evening.
 
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Mike Mall

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Don't forget the dancers, and the drive chain / pulley, are also in the mix.
So you can start by removing them from the mix, by disconnecting the chain, and seeing how the music box goes separately.
 

Opa

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Your release is actually way plus. Looks like your MB simply is not running.

I would take the MB out and clamp it to a suitable surface, hang the chain and weight, and see what happens. It should run one cycle each time you press the flat lever at the top. The warning is done by the lower lever and cannot work unless the MB is in the clock. Willie X
That is exactly what I thought too except that I haven't taken the music box out yet. When I switched out the music box a few months ago, I tried as best as I could to use the old holes but still had to drill a third one in which might have pulled the chain pulleys "up" a bit at that end. I noticed that the far end of that shaft is about 1/16" higher than the governor end of the shaft. The chain to the dancers is reasonable tight but not impossibly slow. Gravity alone should be causing that weight to drop and pull the pulleys and it isn't. I'll take it out of there later tonight or in the morning and put it onto another board and see what it does. I'm also wondering, if I used some of the stepped drill bits (conical shaped) that might make the holes in the case slightly larger to where I can make the shaft more level and not so tight. Do these seem reasonable? Thank you sir.
 

Opa

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Don't forget the dancers, and the drive chain / pulley, are also in the mix.
So you can start by removing them from the mix, by disconnecting the chain, and seeing how the music box goes separately.
Yes, I'm also thinking that perhaps that chain to the dancers is a bit tight. I'm considering alternate plans. Thank you sir.
 

Opa

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That is exactly what I thought too except that I haven't taken the music box out yet. When I switched out the music box a few months ago, I tried as best as I could to use the old holes but still had to drill a third one in which might have pulled the chain pulleys "up" a bit at that end. I noticed that the far end of that shaft is about 1/16" higher than the governor end of the shaft. The chain to the dancers is reasonable tight but not impossibly slow. Gravity alone should be causing that weight to drop and pull the pulleys and it isn't. I'll take it out of there later tonight or in the morning and put it onto another board and see what it does. I'm also wondering, if I used some of the stepped drill bits (conical shaped) that might make the holes in the case slightly larger to where I can make the shaft more level and not so tight. Do these seem reasonable? Thank you sir.
You mentioned also that my release was "way plus." Should I try to back it up or leave it alone? Thank you.
 

Mike Mall

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Yes, I'm also thinking that perhaps that chain to the dancers is a bit tight. I'm considering alternate plans. Thank you sir.
I had one that drove me nuts because it would work 9 times out of ten, then hang up. It turned out to be that chain was too tight. I loosened the screws on the music box, and tilted the pulley up toward the dancers, as much as the slop in the holes allowed. It never hung up again.
 
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Opa

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No trick. Youtube is the way to go. Just record your video and let Youtube do the work.
Thank you sir. I had not done that before, at least, not knowingly although I do have two youtube channels (one I just learned about today and that is the one I used). I took a picture of some instructions though and was able to post it. Again, Thank you.
 
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roughbarked

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If the music box is new, did you oil it?

The fly is the small fan that is the governor of the music box. The end shake is the freedom of movement up and down of the whole shaft. Sometimes this can be squashed in transit. This fan/fly should be able to spin with a puff of air.

Any misalignment will cause a loss of power due to binding. So yes, your chains should run smoothly. All suggestions about isolating the music box should confirm that it does work. If not then the music box has a problem. Otherwise it can be any of the linkages to other actions.
 
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Opa

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I had one that drove me nuts because it would work 9 times out of ten, then hang up. It turned out to be that chain was too tight. I loosened the screws on the music box, and tilted the pulley up toward the dancers, as much as the slop in the holes allowed. It never hung up again.
That is exactly what I think that I'll be doing. I believe that one of the holes I drilled was about 1/16" off which caused the whole thing to be tight. I'll use my step drill to open it up a little bit, probably just the one hole which I added to the two original ones. Thank you sir.
 

Opa

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If the music box is new, did you oil it?

The fly is the small fan that is the governor of the music box. The end shake is the freedom of movement up and down of the whole shaft. Sometimes this can be squashed in transit. This fan/fly should be able to spin with a puff of air.
No sir, I did not oil the music box. Up until now I actually thought that they left the maker already oiled. I'll do that.

So the fly is the same thing which I called the governor, also known as fan. Thank you. I'll check the freedom of movement when I take it off tomorrow to test on a rack and drill one of the holes in the housing slightly larger.

Thank you for helping to educate me in this process. With some good fortune I might almost know what I'm doing before becoming a "Ur Ur Großvater."
 

Opa

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What seems to be good news.
Good afternoon all. I took the parts out of the casing, held the music movement firmly, put a weight on it and pushed the lever down. The lever activated the music perfectly and the music stopped perfectly in the hole exactly as it was supposed to do. So I knew that the music box was not the problem. I looked at the chain connecting the dancers to the music movement and as I said two nights ago, it was reasonably taut. Well, perhaps reasonably taut might mean "too taut." I tried moving the music movement up and toward the front of the clock and it was still too taut and I had three more holes in the casing than I wanted. I knew that the chain had to be too taut but did not want to drill more holes to move the movement again. Any more and the casing would have looked like Swiss Cheese! Last night I noticed that the newer music movement was larger than the original one and actually sat lower. It rang in my head that I could help the two to connect by using a longer chain. I added two links and it worked but there seemed to be too much "slop" in the chain. I took one of the links out and put the music movement back in and tested it. It works perfectly now! I glued some 1/8" dowels into the excess holes and will cut them off on the inside after I'm satisfied of the glue being firmly set. Then I'll put it back in and I expect to be able to declare it "fixed" after nearly ten months in my shop.
I just thought that ya'll would like to know that your ideas helped me with this and other problems and say a huge "Thank You", and ein grosse "Vielen Dank!" to all of you who read German.
 
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Opa

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Here is the latest with this clock. I found that the rack was indeed hung up on the post which the top spring winds around. I corrected that and the time and strike works fine now. I put the movement back in expecting it to be "nearly" done and it was but the one thing I think that it needs now is to correct the strike and music playing at the same time. What can be done to correct this?

 

Opa

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You have a couple of problems which sound like wires bent the wrong way. Was there a bit of clear tubing on the end of the fan brake?
Your cuckoo should drag out a bit more, it is almost too fast to hear parts of it.
Yes, there is clear tubing on the end of the fan brake. Seems that I'm supposed to move it up or down about 1/32" but I'm not sure which way.
Wires bent wrong way? Would that be the bellows lifting wires? I just looked at them and they do not appear to be bent at all. Should they be bent and if so, which way, like an O or more like this ")("?

I also just noticed that as you said, it goes to fast, I just found it had stopped mid-song. I gave it a gentle pull on the weight and it went to the end of the song and the pin fell into the hole. Not quite sure what to do with that but I'm sure that somebody in here does.

Ach! I spoke too soon. I just heard the music in there and it wasn't stopping. I went and watched it go through Edelweiss and Der Froliche Wanderer 2-3 times each. I even tried to bend the musical trip lever up a little bit. Instead, the cuckoo started and cuckooed all the way to the floor. I'm not sure if those two actions were related.

I'm really disappointed, I'd thought that it was nearly done. I've been struggling with this one and one other for almost a year. On the good side, I've restored three others and they are all doing fine, none of the other three had musical movements in them though. Anyway, I'm going to bed. Hopefully we will have some ideas by about lunch time tomorrow. Thank you everybody!
 

Opa

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Yes, there is clear tubing on the end of the fan brake. Seems that I'm supposed to move it up or down about 1/32" but I'm not sure which way.
Wires bent wrong way? Would that be the bellows lifting wires? I just looked at them and they do not appear to be bent at all. Should they be bent and if so, which way, like an O or more like this ")("?

I also just noticed that as you said, it goes to fast, I just found it had stopped mid-song. I gave it a gentle pull on the weight and it went to the end of the song and the pin fell into the hole. Not quite sure what to do with that but I'm sure that somebody in here does.

Ach! I spoke too soon. I just heard the music in there and it wasn't stopping. I went and watched it go through Edelweiss and Der Froliche Wanderer 2-3 times each. I even tried to bend the musical trip lever up a little bit. Instead, the cuckoo started and cuckooed all the way to the floor. I'm not sure if those two actions were related.

I'm really disappointed, I'd thought that it was nearly done. I've been struggling with this one and one other for almost a year. On the good side, I've restored three others and they are all doing fine, none of the other three had musical movements in them though. Anyway, I'm going to bed. Hopefully we will have some ideas by about lunch time tomorrow. Thank you everybody!
One more observation. As I watched the video, it looked to me that both of the bellows did not open very far at all. Should I change the bellow lifter wires with longer ones, about half an inch or perhaps 10 mm longer?
 

Jeff T

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the wire on the music box should be stopping the fan when it cuckoos and releasing when done cuckooing move it lower or in towards the fan
 
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Opa

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It is not the bellows connecting wires but the lifters. They are not lifting the bellows high enough.
So this would mean that I need to bend them slightly up until they are much more open at the raised position, correct?
 

Opa

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It is not the bellows connecting wires but the lifters. They are not lifting the bellows high enough.
Another question about that, would the bellows arms not lifting high enough cause the strike side to run all the way to the floor without stopping?
 

Opa

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the wire on the music box should be stopping the fan when it cuckoos and releasing when done cuckooing move it lower or in towards the fan
As I look at the image of how this music activation arm, there are two parts of it, one is straight and it comes down directly on the music movement arm causing the music to come on. The second part goes back to just above and behind the music movement governor. Should it be bent up or down perhaps to hold the governor in place and then "drop" when the other arm comes down? Thank you for trying to help me to understand this.
 

Vernon

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Should it be bent up or down perhaps to hold the governor in place and then "drop" when the other arm comes down?
Yes, that wire (sometimes called a whip wire) will hold the music fan/governor from the time the clock goes into warn, until to cuckoo stops. This can be a fine adjustment.


Another question about that, would the bellows arms not lifting high enough cause the strike side to run all the way to the floor without stopping?
You will need to look at the rack and rack hook again to see what's going on first, this could be causing your governor and strike issues. I believe that you need longer bellow lift wires since the bellow tops are laying flat. I don't believe that your other issues are related to the lift wires, just make sure nothing is rubbing and has free movement.

Vernon
 
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Mike Mall

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If you turn the minute hand slowly you should see - the top wire moves down releasing the lock, at the same time the lower wire should get in the way of the fan and stop it, and the music.
Then as you hit the top of the hour, both wires will stay down until after the strike has finished, the wires then should raise back into resting position, freeing the fan so the music can play.

From what I can see in the video, you surely need longer lift wires.
(I can't see the bird/perch moving out.)
Also the star wheel is not positioned right, the hammer should be resting, not lifted slightly as it is now, when the strike comes to rest.

Wise Willie just posted a photo of how it should look
Here

Lastly - something has to be hanging up - not catching the stop pin - when the weight goes to the floor.
 

Mike Mall

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Here is what goes on -
1 - The rack hook is under the rack in rest position
2 - the tab on the rack hook catches the stop pin when it falls below the rack
3 - the other end of this shaft is where your wires to the music box are attached

When the rack lifts out of the way after the strike, the hook will fall under it (1), stopping the train by catching the pin (2), and lifting the wires on the back of the shaft(3) out of the way of the fan so the music can play.

When the weight goes to the floor - something is preventing the tab at (2) from stopping the pin - the hook isn't being allowed to fall under the rack.
Also the pallet will try lifting the rack up too far again.

IMG_3786.jpg
 
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shutterbug

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I detect quite a bit of drag on the music box too. Be sure the stop pin isn't pushing against the drum any harder than it needs to.
 

Opa

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If you turn the minute hand slowly you should see - the top wire moves down releasing the lock, at the same time the lower wire should get in the way of the fan and stop it, and the music.
Then as you hit the top of the hour, both wires will stay down until after the strike has finished, the wires then should raise back into resting position, freeing the fan so the music can play.

From what I can see in the video, you surely need longer lift wires.
(I can't see the bird/perch moving out.)
Also the star wheel is not positioned right, the hammer should be resting, not lifted slightly as it is now, when the strike comes to rest.

Wise Willie just posted a photo of how it should look
Here

Lastly - something has to be hanging up - not catching the stop pin - when the weight goes to the floor.
Thank you very much sir. I'll dedicate the rest of this day with those instructions. I'll probably have to take the time movement out because I also noticed that the rack seems stuck in the raised position again. If I do, I'll also check that flipper where the bird perch gets pulled back in. Now seems to be as good of a time to do so as any.
 

Opa

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Thank you very much sir. I'll dedicate the rest of this day with those instructions. I'll probably have to take the time movement out because I also noticed that the rack seems stuck in the raised position again. If I do, I'll also check that flipper where the bird perch gets pulled back in. Now seems to be as good of a time to do so as any.
I went ahead and took the movement out and put it on the test rack because it wasn't it wasn't stopping after "X" number of rings and cuck coos anyway. I left it on the rack for the past week and it seemed to have straightened itself out and I was planning to put it back into the case on Wednesday when I read in another thread a few days ago that I should put a minute hand on it. I did, and that was when I learned that the movement ran great and chimed by itself, but, when I turned the hand, nothing happened at all. I moved the hand twice around and still nothing. I did tap the lifter lever and that set off the chiming but the hand itself, while being pushed, isn't doing anything at all when I turn it. At this point, I've ordered two movements for two which I really want to finish but those are still three to seven weeks out. I question, "Is my hand turning the minute hand and the clock not striking a symptom of a disconnect in the hand shaft?" "Is it that worn out?"

On the other movement I've been working hard on, (actually I have about 5 of them with this problem) the time side works well but the strike side either just hangs and does nothing or it rings all the way until the weight is lying down on the floor. I have read an article about this problem and will be trying out the remedy. It involves turning the pinwheel backwards about 30 degrees as it is possible that the pin flies right past the lever tab instead of getting stopped by it.

On the positive side, I have about three more which only need a case and a post the right height, those are the ones I'm going to work on in the meantime. It appears that I'll be doing some post bending first though.
 

Vernon

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Is the hand shaft actually turning with the hand or is it slipping? Also, make sure that you have power from the weight.
Vernon
 

Opa

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Is the hand shaft actually turning with the hand or is it slipping? Also, make sure that you have power from the weight.
Vernon
As far as I can tell, the weights are doing their job quite well. They have both gone almost to the floor and I just pulled them back up. I turned the hand and it did have a "slipping" feel to it. I took off the nut, the washer and the hand, then I noticed that the square hole bushing didn't look right. I turned it around, put the hand, washer and nut back on it and tightened the nut now it seems to be doing right. Let us see what I can get done tomorrow!
 

John P

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Vernon, we know your frustration but most of it could be eliminated by getting a cuckoo clock repair manual.
The Regula movements are simple to set up but there are things one must understand during that process.
There are rules that must be obeyed if one is too be successful when dealing with cuckoos.

johnp
 

POWERSTROKE

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If the hand is turning and not doing anything the plastic works gear between the plates has a longitudinal crack. Timesavers sells them and I keep about 50 of them in stock: most of them have at least a crack that is beginning.
If it cuckoos and doesn't stop or sometimes doesn't stop where it should, you have and issue with the lever that counts the strike. It is usually the tab at the bottom that falls into the teeth of the rack. I don't know how these things get bent but somehow they do. It should be (the tab) Parallele with the edge of the lever or thereabout. When it gets to the bottom of the rack it should stop crisply like a car ramming into a wall. There should be no bounce when it stops. I really wish I knew how these go out of adjustment but I've seen it more times than I care to talk about. (No, I don't mishandle it when taking it apart). When you get the movement straightened out, then we'll get to the. Using box. There has to be slop in the gear mesh between the box and movement. It can't be tight. You almost want it at a very slight angle so the music box isn't fighting to play.
 

Vernon

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Vernon, we know your frustration but most of it could be eliminated by getting a cuckoo clock repair manual.
The Regula movements are simple to set up but there are things one must understand during that process.
There are rules that must be obeyed if one is too be successful when dealing with cuckoos.

johnp
I'm sure that you meant Opa
 

Mike Mall

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On the other movement I've been working hard on, (actually I have about 5 of them with this problem) the time side works well but the strike side either just hangs and does nothing or it rings all the way until the weight is lying down on the floor. I have read an article about this problem and will be trying out the remedy. It involves turning the pinwheel backwards about 30 degrees as it is possible that the pin flies right past the lever tab instead of getting stopped by it.
The timing between the stop pin, and the notch in the gathering pallet is crucial.
The gathering pallet needs to drop the rack hook - before the stop pin arrives to it's "stopped" position.
I have had the pallet drop it fine during slow testing in hand, then drop it right on top of the pin at normal speed. Just need to twist the pallet on the shaft until it is timed just right.
 

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