Music box governor problems

Willie X

Registered User
Feb 9, 2008
14,051
1,494
113
Some of the roof mounted MBs can be a real pita!

That wire, that stops the fan, should move up and down the fly blade as the clock cuckoo's and get out of the way when it stops calling. This is all controlled by the rack hook on the front of the movement which rarely gives any problems.

The wire usually gets to within about 1mm of the edge when going up and down and must remain very close to the fan, when the fan is released and turning.

I apologise if these points have already been covered.

Willie X
 

Mark Bardenwerper

Registered User
Feb 15, 2021
23
1
3
70
Country
Yes, I think I am close to getting it right. I tend to believe that it will never play on the half hour. I don't really think I would want it to. Listening to the same song every half hour might drive the owner up a wall in his little apartment! But if the music drum advanced that much when I was moving it by hand and much faster than would naturally occur, I need to bend the catch wire upward until it interferes for a longer interval, then barely escapes the fan, towards the right. I think the arm is about right. To far to the left and it would not allow the bird to stop and to far to the right and it would not detain the fan. I will work on it more tomorrow. Thanks so much for your help!
 

RJSoftware

Registered User
Apr 15, 2005
8,491
130
63
Loxahatchee, Florida
Country
Region
No, there is a sprng that is tiny on music box that serves to pull mb lever forward once warning mode releases it. That tiny spring pulls slotted lever so mb hook doesn't fall back into hole. The spring is very small/weak delib so the lever release is easy. It does get stretched, so removing coil can help.

The other common issue is the mb fly not stopping properly. A small finger of that slotted mb lever is supposed to contact mb fly. If that finger fails to contact mb fly, the hook will stop the barrel from rolling. But this is a bad thing as the hook gets locked inside the barrel hole. Then next time the lever won't release because it's stuck.

That is why the fly must be stopped by the lever finger at tip, to keep the lever hook from binding in barrel hole.

1. Cuckoo wire trips mb lever, tiny spring pulls hook from falling back in hole. Cuckoo trip wire stops mb fly spin.

2. Cuckoo-ing (1/2hr/hr) stops trip wire drops out of contact mb fly. Music plays.

3. Mb lever hook drops in hole, stretches tiny spring, mb lever finger contacts mb fly, music stops, hook not in bind.

4. Repeat.

Note: Tiny mb spring should also be installed at enough of angle to encourage lever hook to drop into hole, also still pull lever back during warning.

The finger length can sometimes be adjusted as to when fly contact happens by lightly bending. This is important for getting whole song to play all notes. Not stopping short.

The one way to ruin mb is to dry run without the fly regulation. This especially applies to spring wound mb. The tines are individually weighted/tuned hand crafted by adding lead to each tine underneath. Dry run often breaks lead off.
 

Mark Bardenwerper

Registered User
Feb 15, 2021
23
1
3
70
Country
I have not had a lot of spare time to work on this, but last night, I pulled a marathon. I was up until past 1. Still no luck. I can't get the music to wait, or it doesn't start at all. There seemed to be no in between. I then went to bed, where it seems I do my best thinking, just before I fall asleep. It occurred to me that on the gear end of the pin barrel is a pin that is larger and fatter than the rest. On the stop arm is a flat blade of spring that lays on the barrel and drags along as the barrel turns. I knew that it's purpose was to prevent the stop from swinging out to far, but I kept thinking about the purpose of that fat pin. Last night it came to me. It is supposed to hold the stop pin away from the stop hole when the lever pulls the arm over. This morning I pulled the music box out and discovered that I had not bent the stop pin so that it fell in sooner and the flat blade was not extended far enough out to engage the fat barrel pin. Now, when the music comes around to the end, the flat blade begins to climb the fat pin and the stop pin drops into the stop hole just right. When I pull on the actuator, the flat blade drops off the fat pin and it acts to prevent the stop pin from falling back into the stop hole. Now, when the music goes into warn, the adjustment for stopping the fan should work as it should and when it falls away at play time, the stop pin will not be able to retain the music barrel. Here are two pics, one of the blade on top of the pin and the stop pin in its hole, and another of the blade to the left of the fat pin, the stop pin out of its hole, ready to play. I am putting in back together now and will report back.
 

Mark Bardenwerper

Registered User
Feb 15, 2021
23
1
3
70
Country
Here we are. I mounted the box, no good results. The problem still lies in the cocking system. Apart again, this afternoon I think I finally have it figured out. The drum rolls around and the leaf spring rides just up on the fat pin, then the lock pin drops in the hole and lock hole, the drum stops and the leaf spring moves lightly to the right, but still on top of the pin. When the actuating arm pulls the stop pin out of the hole in the drum, it also moves the leaf spring towards the drum gear and the leaf spring drops off the fat pin. The fat pin then prevents the leaf from moving back over while holding the stop pin out of the stop hole. drum begins to turn. Leaf spring clears the fat pin and it then can move over back into the path of the fat pin. Music plays when the secondary fan stop clears when the cuckoo finishes. When the pin comes back around, it raises the leaf spring and the stop pin drops into the stop hole, readying it for the next play. cocked.jpg uncock to play.jpg Early play.jpg end play.jpg Pin next to finger.jpg
 

Willie X

Registered User
Feb 9, 2008
14,051
1,494
113
Mark,

I don't think anyone could 'splain' it better than RJ just did.

It's not clear, when you speak of the "fat pin", "spring that lays on the barrel", "flat blade", etc.

If you could do the little pointers or labels, that might help us figure out what your words are referring to ...

Willie X
 

Mark Bardenwerper

Registered User
Feb 15, 2021
23
1
3
70
Country
While I fully respect what RJ has written, I can do not see what he wants me to see. I think this is a different mechanism entirely. Let me try again. I have been fiddling with this critter for quite some time and, though I am not professional, there is not much I go after that doesn't wind up fixed. I haven't figured out how to do pointers or labels, but did figure out how to crop the pictures to eliminate background clutter. I am also going to do them one at a time, in steps. Let's start with an overall picture. You will see the dark colored leaf spring has a coil spring attached to hold stop finger against the music drum. This also shows the tip of the leaf spring is resting on a pin that is thicker than the others. It took me some time to figure out its purpose. Note that the stop pin has engaged the hole in the music drum. You can't see it here, but at the back of the arm is a stop for the fan. Here we are in what I will call, "cocked" position. When the clock goes into warn the wire attached to the end of the arched arm gets pulled on and the pin gets pulled out of the drum hole. The leaf spring falls off the fat pin, towards us, where it then is retained from moving back over by the pin. That is the "uncocked" position. The drum turns, the hole moves away and the stop pin then can't fall back in. On goes the Blue Danube Waltz. overall.jpg
 

Mark Bardenwerper

Registered User
Feb 15, 2021
23
1
3
70
Country
Here's how it looks from above. The tip of the leaf spring rests on the fat pin, so you can't see it here. Yank the arm over and the tip of the spring falls off the pin and the pin then acts as a rest to keep the stop pin from falling back into the stop hole. cocked.jpg
 

Mark Bardenwerper

Registered User
Feb 15, 2021
23
1
3
70
Country
The song is nearly over and the pin is back in view. Notice that the leaf spring is headed straight for the fat pin. late play cropped.jpg
 

Mark Bardenwerper

Registered User
Feb 15, 2021
23
1
3
70
Country
The song ends, the stop pin falls in the stop hole in the drum and the leaf spring has just met the pin and has been raised a bit. This was the critical adjustment. It had to rest on the pin, under tension. When the arm gets yanked the leaf has to fall off the pin and not be able to slip back. This was also adjusted by adding a bit of upward bend to the tip of the leaf spring. Here we are, back in "cocked" position again. When this movement was new the leaf spring extended farther to the right. I also had a very hard time getting enough reach for the stop pin, attached to the brass arm, visible on the far side of the drum gear teeth. Originally the arm had a lot more arch in it than you see. The fix to this would be to mount the mechanism arm closer to the drum. This was my second try, and I almost had to buy yet another governor. I am satisfied with this, but if you ever have to restore one of these, play closer attention to the original position of the rest. the replacement governor isn't anywhere close to where it belongs for this particular application. end play cropped.jpg
 

RJSoftware

Registered User
Apr 15, 2005
8,491
130
63
Loxahatchee, Florida
Country
Region
I see yours is different. Have seen similar to yours as well. Sorry for any confusion. A basic point I think may still stand and that is that the mb stop should be performed when lever finger touches fly.

A common practice with clockmakers is to provide stopping action with higher gears. Higher gears spin faster but are easily stopped because they have less torque.

That is why on many chiming, striking clocks you will see a gear with a tiny pin perpendicular on the wheel just before the fly. A lever hook catches those pins. On mb the lever catches fly.

I see what you mean about the larger pin on the drum. Looks like its job is help lever drop in/out of hole. Probably to prevent lever from dropping right back in. I'm thinking as bump rolls out of way it allows lever hook to find hole again once it comes back around.

Since your lever does a small turn (instead of slide) you might be able adjust stopping performance by slight tweaking the angle so lever catches fly sooner, So it stops right away when hook drops into hole on side of barrel.

On ones similar to yours there is a small amount of slot/slop in lever underneath the screw where lever pivots. You have to watch that spring angle and lever slop does not cause hook to miss the barrel hole drop.

It's a balancing act between:

1. adjusting so the fly gets stopped before the hook gets stuck inside of barrel hole. So lever can easily release.

2. Playing whole song to last note.

But I think we are in agreement and glad you got it running.
 
Last edited:

Mark Bardenwerper

Registered User
Feb 15, 2021
23
1
3
70
Country
RJSoftware, Just so. Not in view was the little prong that acts as the fly stop. That was easy to adjust. I simply set to to move *just* out of the way when the trigger was pulled. I have installed it back in the clock and have now gone through several cycles and it works well. The secondary fly stop moves over into block position just as the movement passes warn and the levers slowly move to the right. And music box's arched arm then pulls the trigger, just and the secondary stop arm moves into block position, halting the music box via the fly. When the cuckoo finishes, the secondary stop drops out of the way and the music plays though back and back to cocked. BINGO! Video pending...
 

Mark Bardenwerper

Registered User
Feb 15, 2021
23
1
3
70
Country
Here you go. I have now mounted the bellows and set the gong correctly, which was also wonky. She's been up on my wall and running for four hours and runs great, even keeping pretty good time.
 

Forum statistics

Threads
166,141
Messages
1,447,323
Members
86,684
Latest member
ds23pallas
Encyclopedia Pages
1,101
Total wiki contributions
2,883
Last edit
E. Howard & Co. by Clint Geller