Murday Murday Reasons Clock Brighton

[Terry Gray]

Hi i was wondering if any one might be able to help? a few years ago i acquired a Murday Reasons clock with the large balance wheel, it's never run properly,when it impulsed it managed 3 or 4 at best,clearly there is something wrong?and this was with transformer at 5 6 volts it put into the hands of so called expert who did virtually nothing,i sent the coils to professorial coil winder tho tested the coils he said that the winding had broken down probably through age,they were rewound in modern copper wire,the sapphire bearing had suffer damage over the years,this was professorially replace by company that specialises in this type work,the movement is quite good and shows no wear,at the bridge there is an adjustable screw a locking nut this showed considerable wear and has been re bushed, the contacts are in good condition,on the face of it there is little wrong,this now only leaves the balance spring,i suspect that it might be a modern reproduction,which is to strong for it,Electrical Time Keeping,it says the amplitude varies considerable and is dependant on the state of the battery but it give 7 to 30 swings,as mentioned mine is 3 or 4 swings at best ,i also believe it should run on 3 volts ,it would be nice to see it run once judging by the wear in bridge locking screw nut it had run for long while,any information especially about the balance spring would be gratefully received

 

[John Hubby]

Terry, welcome to the NAWCC Message Board! Thanks for posting the info and photos of your Murday clock. For convenience in searching this forum for other threads about these interesting clocks, I have added a "Murday" prefix to the title of the thread. If you click on the prifix, it will select all the Murday threads in this forum as a single list and make it much easier to find info.

In looking at your clock, the balance spring is suspect to me. The coils of a normal Murday balance spring open gradually and symmetrically outward, whereas yours are very open in the center and "bunched" together on one side. This can be corrected by taking the spring out of the clock, then slightly bending each coil inward in successive steps around the circumference of each coil as you proceed to the outer coil. when you finish, the outer coil of the spring should be the diameter needed to fit to the retaining post with little or no need to move it to fit into position, and with all the coils spaced in decreasing increments towards the center. I don't know if that will enable the clock to swing more than the 3 or 4 turns you are now getting but it should help, even if the spring is too strong. I don't know of anyone who makes replacements, however I would look at small novelty clock mainsprings for starters. I do have two of these clocks presently in my shop but right now am away on a short trip. I'll check when I return and measure what I have so we will have a reference point. Perhaps another user may have the original specs for these they could post, that would save a lot of time.

 

[Terry Gray]

many thanks for taking the time to reply,i did try to straighten the coils of the spring but it seemed a bit worse,than when i started,i have another spring which i fitted and the coil are spaced evenly,buy manually swinging balance wheel it seems a bit better,i need to rewire the clock,i removed the wiring when i was trying to eliminate problems,i recently acquired a David Harriman clock which is a copy of the Murday,as it runs well i will copy the wiring from that clock,that clocks balance wheel turn any from 27 33 times but each turn slightly shorter till it re impulses,and this is on 3 volts,i will of course keep you posted,
Kind Regards Terry.

 

[Terry Gray]

Terry, welcome to the NAWCC Message Board! Thanks for posting the info and photos of your Murday clock. For convenience in searching this forum for other threads about these interesting clocks, I have added a "Murday" prefix to the title of the thread. If you click on the prifix, it will select all the Murday threads in this forum as a single list and make it much easier to find info.

In looking at your clock, the balance spring is suspect to me. The coils of a normal Murday balance spring open gradually and symmetrically outward, whereas yours are very open in the center and "bunched" together on one side. This can be corrected by taking the spring out of the clock, then slightly bending each coil inward in successive steps around the circumference of each coil as you proceed to the outer coil. when you finish, the outer coil of the spring should be the diameter needed to fit to the retaining post with little or no need to move it to fit into position, and with all the coils spaced in decreasing increments towards the center. I don't know if that will enable the clock to swing more than the 3 or 4 turns you are now getting but it should help, even if the spring is too strong. I don't know of anyone who makes replacements, however I would look at small novelty clock mainsprings for starters. I do have two of these clocks presently in my shop but right now am away on a short trip. I'll check when I return and measure what I have so we will have a reference point. Perhaps another user may have the original specs for these they could post, that would save a lot of time.

 

[Terry Gray]

Hi thanks for you reply in your previous post you said that you are the owner of Murday Reasons
Clock, and you would let Me have the dimensions the width and thickness, of the balance spring, I recently spent a considerable amount time trying to get to run but still no success the best is a few hours but then it stops, I am fairly certain its the balance spring, I would there for be very grateful if you could let have the dimensions,
Kind Regards Terry Gray,

 

[Uhralt]

Hi thanks for you reply in your previous post you said that you are the owner of Murday Reasons


Clock, and you would let Me have the dimensions the width and thickness, of the balance spring, I recently spent a considerable amount time trying to get to run but still no success the best is a few hours but then it stops, I am fairly certain its the balance spring, I would there for be very grateful if you could let have the dimensions,
Kind Regards Terry Gray,

I'm not sure if the spring is the culprit. Maybe there is some friction somewhere in the movement so that the balance wheel needs more power to drive the clock and cycles more frequently.

I have a Poole clock that ran poorly and cycled every 3 to 4 swings of the pendulum after disassembly and cleaning. I found that I had mounted the dial slightly out of center and the second hand very slightly touched the rim of the dial hole. After repositioning of the dial the clock runs very well now and cycles every 36 to 38 oscillations.

Uhralt

 

[Terry Gray]

Hi thanks for your reply, the movement is in excellent order and condition, its possible to remove the movement from the base, and still have the impulse balance wheel in place, the contacts still impulse the balance wheel but still impulses very poorly 4 swings at best about 55 degrees at best and slows very quickly, the coils are in good order as are the contacts, the bottom bearing has been professionally rewound, when the balance wheel is free to revolve it will spin freely, I get the feeling its the balance spring, King Regards.

 

[Uhralt]

Hi thanks for your reply, the movement is in excellent order and condition, its possible to remove the movement from the base, and still have the impulse balance wheel in place, the contacts still impulse the balance wheel but still impulses very poorly 4 swings at best about 55 degrees at best and slows very quickly, the coils are in good order as are the contacts, the bottom bearing has been professionally rewound, when the balance wheel is free to revolve it will spin freely, I get the feeling its the balance spring, King Regards.

I agree. When the balance wheel behaves the same without the movement attached (I was thinking about proposing such a test), then drag in the movement is not to blame. Hopefully John will soon chime in with regard to which spring you will need.

Uhralt

 

[Terry Gray]

thanks for reply, Terry Gray,

 

[Terry Gray]

HI every one, as you can see my , previous threads brought no real results, my Murday Reasons clock has suffered problems, with the rotation of the balance wheel , I would very much suspect the spring that is fitted is modern reproduction, and is probable unsuitable, I have to be honest I am a bit disappointed at the response as to any information, as to the balance spring, I would have felt there would be owners of this clock could have helped, if any one has any information as to the the spring I would greatful.

 

[Jmeechie]

Hi,
I haven’t directly touched one of these but hope to find one one day! From what I’ve seen and studied, this is a balance wheel design. I’d check the following as well as repair or replace the spring, any binding in the bushings at the balance pivots..
As far as the spring, I’d recommend measuring what you have and comparing available mainsprings. I am going 5o guess the spring is original but not only is it out of round (coiled circular) but is also horizontally not flat. This will cause balance to twist and bind in the bushing.
Oh, and sadly these clocks are pretty rare so responses are far and few from owners. I did see one sell on eBay the other week in the UK.
Good luck and I’m sure someone with more experience and knowledge will be along.
Cheers,
James

 

[Mike Phelan]

For some strange reason my post has disappeared

So, to recall, Terry, you don't need a new spring? I know that if the slightest binding on the top and bottom pivots the clock will stop after a few rotations. The one I made has ball races top and bottom and every few years i need to wash the, out and re-oil.

Are the contacts OK?

 

[Terry Gray]

Hi,
I haven’t directly touched one of these but hope to find one one day! From what I’ve seen and studied, this is a balance wheel design. I’d check the following as well as repair or replace the spring, any binding in the bushings at the balance pivots..
As far as the spring, I’d recommend measuring what you have and comparing available mainsprings. I am going 5o guess the spring is original but not only is it out of round (coiled circular) but is also horizontally not flat. This will cause balance to twist and bind in the bushing.
Oh, and sadly these clocks are pretty rare so responses are far and few from owners. I did see one sell on eBay the other week in the UK.
Good luck and I’m sure someone with more experience and knowledge will be along.
Cheers,
James

thank you for reply; I have done just about every thing I can think of, I have, the spring looks good to me, but I suspect may be it to

For some strange reason my post has disappeared

So, to recall, Terry, you don't need a new spring? I know that if the slightest binding on the top and bottom pivots the clock will stop after a few rotations. The one I made has ball races top and bottom and every few years i need to wash the, out and re-oil.

Are the contacts OK?

thank you for reply the contacts are good it impulses very well, the bottom bearing has been renewed with a synthetic ruby and the top bridge has been rebushed, the balance wheel rotate/spins very well without the spring, I doubt there is any resistance from the bearing, but thank you any way for your comments,

 

[Jmeechie]

I was reading through your post again and I see your using a transformer? at 5 - 6 volts and I’m wondering if that’s too high? I believe these ran on 1.5 volts and you may be over energizing the coils. With the metal U shape (armature) you may be over attracting the armature.
I’ve seen similar situations where the voltage was increased to overcome issues like you pointed out, shorted coil and damaged jewel. Now that they’re corrected, and it’s freer to swing, the excess voltage could be now too strong!
Your clock runs on the same principal as a compass. If you hold a small magnet say 6 inches from the compass needle and start moving the magnet back and forth you’ll cause the needle to move freely and possibly spin. Now move the magnet to within an inch and repeat and the needle will stay basically stuck pointing at the magnet! Because the field is too strong!
Just a thought.
James

 

[Terry Gray]

I was reading through your post again and I see your using a transformer? at 5 - 6 volts and I’m wondering if that’s too high? I believe these ran on 1.5 volts and you may be over energizing the coils. With the metal U shape (armature) you may be over attracting the armature.
I’ve seen similar situations where the voltage was increased to overcome issues like you pointed out, shorted coil and damaged jewel. Now that they’re corrected, and it’s freer to swing, the excess voltage could be now too strong!
Your clock runs on the same principal as a compass. If you hold a small magnet say 6 inches from the compass needle and start moving the magnet back and forth you’ll cause the needle to move freely and possibly spin. Now move the magnet to within an inch and repeat and the needle will stay basically stuck pointing at the magnet! Because the field is too strong!
Just a thought.
James

Thank you for you reply, and input, the clock has always been linked to a small variable trans former, I believe the clocks were designed to run on thee volts, but I suspect the batteries back when it was made are very different from todays, the transformer used can be varied from 1 to 12 volts. when the clock is run at low voltage the aptitude of the large balance wheel is very low and the wheel hardly moves. it's much better at 5/6 volts, but even then it's still not really as it should be, I must be honest I know nothing about coils magnetism, as mentioned the coils were professionally rewound in same manner as the original, every thing in the clock is as it should be, thats what led me to believe the the balance spring is at fault.
Kind regards Terry Gray,

 

[Mike Phelan]

At the time the clock was made, all battery cells were 1.5 volts using carbon+zinc, and remained so until the 1960s or so.
Given that everything on your clock has been replaced apart dron the spring, it sure looks like that is the problem; however, can't you try to gently bend it until the centre is central to the bottom bearing?

 

[Terry Gray]

At the time the clock was made, all battery cells were 1.5 volts using carbon+zinc, and remained so until the 1960s or so.
Given that everything on your clock has been replaced apart dron the spring, it sure looks like that is the problem; however, can't you try to gently bend it until the centre is central to the bottom bearing?

thanks info kind regards Terry Gray

 

[Jmeechie]

I’ve been looking and looking at your clock and am somewhat perplexed, the coil(s) seem out of place and are not where all the others are positioned?
could you post a float and rear picture of the coils and the armature.
Here‘s a post off the internet that discusses these interesting clocks.

https://physicsmuseum.uq.edu.au/system/storage/serve/33452/Mark%202%20balance%20wheel%20clock%20v4.pdf

It seems all these clocks had a single coil positioned under the bottom pivot? I struggling to figure out how the armature passes the end of the coil(s)?

 

[Jmeechie]

Ok, I found a YouTube video of your style of movement running. It seems yours is based on the similarities of Hipp-Toggle where the switch contacts only after the rotation of the balance degrades and impulses the balance once.

And apparently when the solenoids close there’s a curved arm attached to the plunger strap that pushes/forces the balance forward increasing the swing!

So, I really suspect you’re dealing with a timing issue based on what you have previously written And how I see this actuation of the balance.
Here’s the stepsI would follow to determine what’s occurring incorrectly:
1: Disconnect and remove power source
2. manually turn balance wheel until hanging trip plate is over double notch switch
3. at this point observe where pin on balance is in reference to curved wire rod from solenoid
4. manually close solenoid and see where arm strikes pin on balance in reference to curve
5. release balance at this point and count number of swings until switch is triggered

Somewhere in this sequence I believe is the problem! Looking at all the balance springs they’re all squewiff so I doubt that’s the issue. My guess is either the curved arm is bent back away slightly too much or is catching the pin with enough force!
In the 2nd video it‘s running without the movement installed and you may want to do this on yours as it will make observing easier.
Oh, and if you can, post a video of yours trying to run.
James

 

[Jmeechie]

Oh, on #1 I didn’t mean to remove the power supply wiring, I meant disconnect or unplug.
Sorry for the confusing statement.

 

[Terry Gray]

Ok, I found a YouTube video of your style of movement running. It seems yours is based on the similarities of Hipp-Toggle where the switch contacts only after the rotation of the balance degrades and impulses the balance once.

And apparently when the solenoids close there’s a curved arm attached to the plunger strap that pushes/forces the balance forward increasing the swing!

So, I really suspect you’re dealing with a timing issue based on what you have previously written And how I see this actuation of the balance.
Here’s the stepsI would follow to determine what’s occurring incorrectly:
1: Disconnect and remove power source
2. manually turn balance wheel until hanging trip plate is over double notch switch
3. at this point observe where pin on balance is in reference to curved wire rod from solenoid
4. manually close solenoid and see where arm strikes pin on balance in reference to curve
5. release balance at this point and count number of swings until switch is triggered

Somewhere in this sequence I believe is the problem! Looking at all the balance springs they’re all squewiff so I doubt that’s the issue. My guess is either the curved arm is bent back away slightly too much or is catching the pin with enough force!
In the 2nd video it‘s running without the movement installed and you may want to do this on yours as it will make observing easier.
Oh, and if you can, post a video of yours trying to run.
James

 

[Terry Gray]

Ok, I found a YouTube video of your style of movement running. It seems yours is based on the similarities of Hipp-Toggle where the switch contacts only after the rotation of the balance degrades and impulses the balance once.

And apparently when the solenoids close there’s a curved arm attached to the plunger strap that pushes/forces the balance forward increasing the swing!

So, I really suspect you’re dealing with a timing issue based on what you have previously written And how I see this actuation of the balance.
Here’s the stepsI would follow to determine what’s occurring incorrectly:
1: Disconnect and remove power source
2. manually turn balance wheel until hanging trip plate is over double notch switch
3. at this point observe where pin on balance is in reference to curved wire rod from solenoid
4. manually close solenoid and see where arm strikes pin on balance in reference to curve
5. release balance at this point and count number of swings until switch is triggered

Somewhere in this sequence I believe is the problem! Looking at all the balance springs they’re all squewiff so I doubt that’s the issue. My guess is either the curved arm is bent back away slightly too much or is catching the pin with enough force!
In the 2nd video it‘s running without the movement installed and you may want to do this on yours as it will make observing easier.
Oh, and if you can, post a video of yours trying to run. as for the timing you can move the l shaped lever
James

thank you for taking the time to reply, believe I have tried just about every thing, have watched the videos on you tube and Carlton clocks, as for the curved arm it's very far from straight forward as it might seem it has to be exactly right other wise it catches the l shaped leaver, on the balance wheel wheel to get the optimum leverage,