Muller Schlenker - 2 weight Vienna - Won't run!

Discussion in 'Clock Repair' started by Dave T, Aug 1, 2018.

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  1. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    #1 Dave T, Aug 1, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2018
    I have yet to keep this clock running for any extended period of time. Sometimes a whole week, sometimes 3 or 4 hours, sometimes maybe 5 minutes. With 5 minutes most recently. I've had it out of the case numerous times, and on the bench it runs great. But in the case, I can hear something rubbing. Problem is, in the case I can't see it in order to be able to find out what it is.
    If you want to see what it looks like take a look here: My new clock, what is it? Muller-Schlenker?
    On these the pendulum and gong assembly is mounted to the back of the case. Last time I had it out I lubed the slot in the pendulum and the leader going into it. Then, it ran for a couple of hours maybe. Maybe I can figure out a way to mount the whole thing on a flat board and hang it on the wall so I can see.
    I have a video.... mostly to listen to not look at. Forget the background music and you can hear it.[​IMG]

     
  2. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    I think you're going to have to pull the hands and remove the dial so you can see what's happening.
     
  3. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    "I can hear something rubbing", track that down and you will probably find your problem. A dental mirrow and a flashlight should reveal the problem. The pendulum clearance is obvious
    So it can't be much else other than the crutch pin rubbing the backboard or the pendulum rod rubbing the gong, gong mount, or the hammer.
    BTW, the correct position for the movement plate is not always all the way in. Pull it out about 1/8" and see if the rubbing sound stops.
    Willie X
     
  4. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    Thanks for the ideas, I have moved the movement in and out to see if that makes any difference. It isn't all the way back now. I'll try to figure a way to look closer. Maybe I'll see it somewhere.
    It doesn't have much swing, but I think that's okay. It sounds good when it runs.
     
  5. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    Most will swing the pendulum far enough to cover most of the beat plaque but this is highly variable. Less than 1" would likely indicate some problem that needs to be delt with. One thing for sure, your clock should make no rubbing sounds ... If you have a beat amp, this is a good time to use it. Willie X
     
  6. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    Willie, I don't have one, (beat amp). Maybe it's time. What do you all know about these:
    Timetrax Model #60 Beat Amplifier With PC/Smartphone Interface & Clip-on Sensor
    The other thing I'm thinking about now is the swing. This is the clock David LaBounty worked on for me. He re-surfaced and adjust the pallets. And I didn't want to adjust anything on the escape.
    I still think the main problem is a rub or drag somewhere, and I've looked and looked.
    I also tried to listen to different areas with a long handled screwdriver to see if I could pinpoint it.
     
  7. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    #7 Willie X, Aug 1, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2018
    Was it possible to slide the movement foward 1/8"? This will clear many clearance issues but some movements are locked in place and cannot be moved.
    A little Honey-Tone guitar practice amp (photo) makes a good beat amp. Only about 21 bucks + pick up, which can run from 6 to 30 bucks. Willie X
    20180115_164426.jpg
     
  8. John P

    John P Registered User
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    The timetrax amp is a great little tool and we use it a lot out in the field. No batteries needed.

    johnp
     
  9. shimmystep

    shimmystep Registered User

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    Could the noise be crutch rattle?
     
  10. wow

    wow Registered User
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    Dave, a mechanic’s stethoscope works great for finding that rubbing noise. They are cheap and Harbor freight has them. I have a beat amplifier, but the long rod on the stethoscope will sometimes reach places the beat amp will not.
     
  11. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    Thanks again all,
     
  12. rgmt79

    rgmt79 Registered User
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    Dave T, it seems to me that you may not have the clock hanging correctly. I have a GB regulator which is similar to your clock and also has the pendulum and gong attached to a fitting fixed to the back of the case. You can see from the photo's attached that it was necessary to hang the clock with quite a big clearance away from the wall at the top in order to make sure everything cleared ok...it is all quite tight and required some packing pieces (wooden tooth picks) behind the fitting inside the back of the case to achieve the clearances necessary.

    IMG_0547.jpg IMG_0548.jpg
     
  13. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    Thanks, I've definitely considered that. I know these are close tolerance clocks. But I'm real sure now there's no obstruction anywhere in the pendulum area. I adjusted the gong to clear, and the pendulum frees the case a good half inch.
    I've been watching this clock closely quite a while now this morning, and all the pendulum and suspension elements are free with no rub or drag.
    One thing I'm beginning to question is the swing. When this clock settles down I only have about an inch of swing. And when it runs consistently, which is very rare, that's about all it has.
    As I mentioned earlier this clock has adjustable pallets and was adjusted by David LaBounty and I hate to mess with it, but I'm about to the point of ... What have I got to lose?
    This is the only Vienna I have and so far, I hate it! :)
     
  14. R&A

    R&A Registered User

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    Check the suspension spring clearance on the verge. It maybe rubbing there.
     
  15. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    Trying to understand this thought. I don't see how the suspension spring could rub. All the pendulum components are mounted on the back of the case.
    Here's a picture of it when I got it, before I installed a good suspension spring.
    German Regulator two weight 3.jpg
     
  16. rgmt79

    rgmt79 Registered User
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    I have two Vienna's (both GB) and an inch of swing is about right...you will love it when you get it sorted:)
     
  17. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    I knew I read that somewhere. I won't mess with the verge!
     
  18. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    Been at this for another two hours now. Took the movement out, took the gong out and left it out, put a spacer between the clock and mounting bracket to allow a little more standoff at the top.
    I'm 99.9% sure nothing's rubbing outside the movement.
    I'm now inclined to think the noise is inside the frame of the movement within the train.

    Not worth mention probably, but the escape verge has quite a bit of end play, (which would move the pallets position on the escape wheel slightly) and I can position it at either end of the play, and there is no difference.

    Junk man picks up on Mondays! ;)
     
  19. shimmystep

    shimmystep Registered User

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    What tolerance/slop have you in the crutch slot on the pendulum rod, when assembled.
     
  20. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    I'd say maybe 1 mm more or less. just guessing. I can try to measure it.
     
  21. shimmystep

    shimmystep Registered User

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    The crutch pin is ordinarily round in shape where it enters the pendulum rod on Viennas, so the tolerance can and should be less in my view, especially given it is a deadbeat that the amplitude is ideally short. I would be tempted to see/test if reducing that will help, for e.g. temporarily wrapping some electrical tape tightly around the crutch pin to take up most of the slack, oil it and set it off. Crutch slop can make some odd noises, especially if the crutch/crutch pin and pend' rod don't hang in parallel and perpendicular, respectively. If the noise doesn't go you'll have ruled that out, if it does go...
     
  22. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    Thanks! I'll definitely try it. Hope I understand exactly. Before I do, take a look at this video, and see if you think it's a problem?
     
  23. shimmystep

    shimmystep Registered User

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    Quite a lot of end shake on the EW arbour but shouldn't be a problem. What you show on the video is not what I was talking about in my last post though :)
     
  24. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    Duh! Finally got that through my head. Sorry. I'll try it.
     
  25. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    There seems to be no EW action at all in the video. That means one of two things: either the pallets are set too low so that escapement is impossible, or there is no power to the EW.
     
  26. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    You must be referring to the last video. That one was with the movement out of the clock for me to show how much endshake the anchor has.

    If you look at the first video in post #1 you can see the seconds bit is moving nicely.
    Sounds good and strong when I can get it to run.
     
  27. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    Oh. That does make a difference :)
     
  28. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    All the time you were referring to the crutch slot and pendulum rod, my crazy mind was thinking about the end shake on the anchor shaft. Don't ask me why.
    Anyway, the correct answer to your question is "very minimal". I'd say .2 mm. Looks good to me. I've seen a lot of clocks run with a lot more. Not to say a Vienna can stand these tolerances. I don't know.
    I also tried to put some electrical tape there as you suggested, but there's not enough room for the thickness of the tape to insert it into the pendulum.
     
  29. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    In reference to the very large enshake on the pallet arbor, check the corner post. Often there is a small ledge machined on the post and a small recess on the plates. These two features are designed to snap together tightly. Often this line-up doesn't happen and the plate is actually setting up on this little ledge. As already mentioned, it probably doesn't make a big difference but it could cause some drag if the crutch can move back against the wear plate but more importantly the plates would not be properly aglined. Willie X
     
  30. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    If I understand what you're saying here, I'm pretty sure this clock doesn't have the machined ledge. I've had it apart several times, and never had any concern aligning the plates. These pictures might reveal something to you that I don't see. The last picture was during the teardown.
    Muller Schlenker 24.jpg Muller Schlenker 23.jpg Muller Schlenker 8.jpg
     
  31. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    For what it's worth, when the clock is running I can move the anchor shaft back and forth and it runs equally in either position. Just won't continue to run.
     
  32. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    But is it rubbing something when it's in either of the extreme posotions? Something has happened to the arbor, or plates, The clock wasn't made with that much end-play. IOWs, the excessive end play might not be a problem in itself but it could be an indicator of an unnoticed problem. Oh, is the scraping noise still there? Willie X
     
  33. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    #33 Dave T, Aug 3, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2018
    Willie, As near as I can tell, the rubbing is intermittent. And the position of the anchor shaft doesn't make any difference. I've tried to center it and it's still the same.
    From my inspection and the pictures I posted, it appears to me that the plates are snug against the inside of the posts on all four corners. And when I assembled it, it went together smoothly without any coaxing.
    I don't know why the end play is there, I don't see anything that looks bent or out of position,
    And yes, the noise is still there. On rare occasion it will run for several hours and maybe days.
    I do notice that the noise generally occurs when the pendulum swings to the left, and not when it moves to the right.

    With these thoughts in mind, I think I'll tear it down again. But not sure what else to look for.
    Update, just looked at it, and all the other gears have much less endshake. Just a minimal amount compared to the anchor. And the anchor bridge is solid and looks straight. It does have the adjustable eccentric on the other side, but I can't see that it's ever been touched.
     
  34. shimmystep

    shimmystep Registered User

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    Perhaps another video without music in the background, and of good sound quality might help, though I think it going to be hard for us to i.d. where the noise is coming from, without eyes on it as well.
     
  35. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    Actually I did try to make another video, but it didn't turn out so well. I'll try it again.
    That noise is not steady, it comes and goes. I thought it was when the pendulum just swings left, but that's not necessarily so.
    I appreciate all the help. Think I'll open it up again and take another look.
     
  36. R&A

    R&A Registered User

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    Now that we have a picture there is a better understanding When guys post and there isn't a picture to reverence off of then it's shooting from the hip for us to figure out what maybe the problem.
     
  37. bruce linde

    bruce linde Technical Admin
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    dave -

    i have had great success seeing what's going on behind the scenes (i.e., dial) since i got this:

    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B079G9QWKW/ref:^h_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1

    connect to my iPhone (once i downloaded the app) and lets me see what's going on in situ.

    btw... i have one vienna regulator, too... and it's driven me crazy over time... they are somewhat unforgiving, but once you get 'em right they run like clocks (so to speak) :cool:
     
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  38. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    New day... Mounted the clock on a stand where I can look at all of it. Took this video. I know now for sure nothing in the gong, pendulum area is rubbing.
    One thing I do see is a little pendulum wobble. I'm tempted to adjust the crutch post where it slides through the pendulum. It may not be exactly perpendicular to the pendulum? But I can't see that it is.


    Sound still not that good. I'll try it again.
     
  39. bruce linde

    bruce linde Technical Admin
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    The pendulum really starts to wobble at at about 1:20, and it goes out of beat. Have you tried a new suspension spring? Have you looked closely at the escape wheel to make sure that none of the cheese have issues… I.e. short, worn, bent?
     
  40. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    Bruce, You may be onto something. I'm thinking suspension spring too. Not sure the one I have is right. Didn't have one when I got it. But I think it might be too small allowing the pendulum to twist. I'm sure the escape wheel and pallet is correct. It was all adjusted by Dave LaBounty, and it looks good.
    Here's one more video, just for sound. you can really hear it about half way through. But it's difficult to get the sound recorded properly.

    I've got a stethoscope coming. Maybe that will help.
     
  41. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    Looking at the pictures in post #30, it appears that there's an irregularity in the EW pinion. It might just be the light and/or picture angle, but it would be worth looking at again. Pic #3 is the one I'm referencing.
     
  42. shimmystep

    shimmystep Registered User

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    I've said all along that I think the noise is crutch pin rattle, and this is the last time I'm going say that!! :)
    I'm ab sure it is the crutch pin in the pendulum rod against the wear plates. Sorting out that pendulum wobble is your first step,i.e new suspension spring and check the crutch pin in perpendicular.
     
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  43. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    I can take a hard look at it. Here's a couple more pictures from the build.
    Muller Schlenker 9.jpg Muller Schlenker 3.jpg
     
  44. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    I hear you!! Finally. :)
     
  45. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    Took a break and did something I know how to... mowed the yard.. Out there nobody's telling me it's not right! :)
    Okay, here's an update. Changed the suspension spring, but still don't know if it's what it should be. It's 8mm wide and 11mm long, whole assembly. Not sure the thickness of the actual spring. I could measure it if I need to.
    Muller Schlenker suspension spring.jpg
    Took the crutch out and tried to make sure the pin thru the pendulum is perpendicular. If it was off it wasn't much and I'm not sure it's right yet.
    Pendulum wobble is gone!
    But, bottom line, it's still making a noise and won't keep running.
    Don't know what to do except try to adjust the crutch pin again. I do feel pretty certain now the noise, and most likely drag, is coming from the pin thru the pendulum.
     
  46. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
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    How does the slot in the brass insert of the pendulum rod look like? is it smooth or is there some roughness or wear? That could rob some power.

    Uhralt
     
  47. bruce linde

    bruce linde Technical Admin
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    in my (somewhat limited) experience a crutch pin smacking left to right and back again in a crutch slot that's a little too wide will either make the ticking a lot louder, or sound uneven... in the latter case, kind of a a sliding noise into either the tick or tock, but not both. while a crutch slot that's too wide can contribute to pendulum wobble, the only times i've ever had the crutch slot be a problem was when it was too tight... in which case it would cause the movement to stop.

    i think the video we really need to see is one that shows escape wheel and verge interacting, and suspension spring going back and forth in its slot.
     
  48. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    Another video for you as requested. It's real difficult to video the escape wheel between the solid plates, but here's the crutch pin. If there's any movement it is very minimal. The pin is smooth with no burrs.
     
  49. bruce linde

    bruce linde Technical Admin
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    i think the crutch setup looks pretty darn good... i'm not seeing extra movement in the crutch pin/slot.

    still wondering if the lock and drop are right on the escape wheel and verge... any way to see a video of what's happening there?
     
  50. leeinv66

    leeinv66 Moderator
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    I'd not be happy with the amount of slop between the pin and the sides of the slots in the wear plate. While it would be fine in a recoil, spring driven movement, it is too sloppy for a dead beat, weight driven movement. Time for a new wear plate that is sized correctly to the pin. You need to listen to Shimmystep. He is giving you solid advise.
     

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