Muckle Case data

Discussion in 'American Pocket Watches' started by Greg Frauenhoff, Aug 6, 2003.

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  1. Greg Frauenhoff

    Greg Frauenhoff Registered User
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    Aug 25, 2000
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    Inquiring minds want to know: how many Muckle reversible cases were made? Only one way I know how to answer such a question and that is Serial Numbers!

    Summary of very scanty serial number data from an old thread:

    2518-Northwestern-18s KW-NOT a Muckle
    17536-Northwestern-Muckle
    21838-Northwestern?-Muckle
    21849-Northwestern w/ "R" in shield-Muckle
    23203-Rockford w/ "R" in shield-Muckle
    28152-Rockford w/ "R" in shield-Muckle-16s
    29669-Rockford w/ "R" in shield-Muckle
    31645-Rockford w/ "R" in shield-Muckle

    Maybe other members can supply further s/n data.

    Post away!

    Greg Frauenhoff

    My Watch Site
     
  2. Greg Frauenhoff

    Greg Frauenhoff Registered User
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    Aug 25, 2000
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    Inquiring minds want to know: how many Muckle reversible cases were made? Only one way I know how to answer such a question and that is Serial Numbers!

    Summary of very scanty serial number data from an old thread:

    2518-Northwestern-18s KW-NOT a Muckle
    17536-Northwestern-Muckle
    21838-Northwestern?-Muckle
    21849-Northwestern w/ "R" in shield-Muckle
    23203-Rockford w/ "R" in shield-Muckle
    28152-Rockford w/ "R" in shield-Muckle-16s
    29669-Rockford w/ "R" in shield-Muckle
    31645-Rockford w/ "R" in shield-Muckle

    Maybe other members can supply further s/n data.

    Post away!

    Greg Frauenhoff

    My Watch Site
     
  3. John Pavlik

    John Pavlik Registered User
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    Dec 30, 2001
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    Greg,

    The Muckle case I had serial 28648 with the R. Movment Waltham Ellery #2350547....

    John
     
  4. Whit Joyner

    Whit Joyner Registered User

    Mar 8, 2001
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    My Muckle has two different serial numbers. It's a Size 18, coin silver, 28827 but also marked 21117. It's twice marked with an "R" in a shield. Other markings are:
    Rockford
    Coin
    E. A. Muckle - 1882 Pat.

    Crossman says the Northwestern Watch Case Co. began in Rockford, IL in 1878 and became the Rockford Watch Case Co. in 1883. My patent date may prove Crossman in error.
     
  5. Greg Frauenhoff

    Greg Frauenhoff Registered User
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    Whit,


    On your Muckle where are the various serial numbers located? I. e. which one is on the dust cap (where the patent date is located) and which is on the rest of the case. Where are the various "R"s and/or "Rockford" located. The #21xxx may fall into the time frame when these cases were marked Northwestern. The early (and erroneous) patent date of 1882 on your Muckle has been noticed on other such beasts, but the correct patent date is in 1883 (Bernie has posted this info in another thread, my own copy of this patent is buried on my desk somewhere).

    BTW, the old thread has some info on the NW/Rock case Co. history that suggests the name change occured between 1886 and 1890. 1882 for the name change is too early (plenty of old ads for NW are from 1884 etc.)

    Thanks and keep the nos. coming.

    Greg Frauenhoff

    My Watch Site
     
  6. Greg Frauenhoff

    Greg Frauenhoff Registered User
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    Updated s/n list (Thanks to info from John, Bernie and Whit):

    2518-Northwestern-18s KW-NOT a Muckle
    17536-Northwestern-Muckle
    21117
    21838-Northwestern?-Muckle
    21849-Northwestern w/ "R" in shield-Muckle
    23203-Rockford w/ "R" in shield-Muckle
    25459-Rockford w/ "R" in shield-Muckle-16s
    28055-Rockford w/ "R" in shield-Muckle-16s
    28152-Rockford w/ "R" in shield-Muckle-16s
    28648-Rockford w/ "R" in shield-Muckle
    28827-Rockford w/ "R" in shield-Muckle
    29669-Rockford w/ "R" in shield-Muckle
    31645-Rockford w/ "R" in shield-Muckle
    31902-Rockford w/ "R" in shield-Muckle (ebay)

    Greg Frauenhoff

    My Watch Site

    [This message was edited by Greg Frauenhoff on August 07, 2003 at 21:14.]
     
  7. Greg Frauenhoff

    Greg Frauenhoff Registered User
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    Located my copy of pat abst #275251 Magic Watch-Case Edward A. Muckle, Rockford, Ill.

    Filed Aug 5, 1882. Pat date of Apr. 3, 1883.

    Greg Frauenhoff

    My Watch Site
     
  8. Greg Frauenhoff

    Greg Frauenhoff Registered User
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    I was wrong (again)...

    The following notice appeared in a Sept. 1885 trade journal:

    "The Northwestern Watch Case Company will henceforth be known as the Rockford Watch Case Company."

    Greg Frauenhoff

    My Watch Site
     
  9. Douglas Romero

    Douglas Romero Registered User
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    Couple more...and these cases are in super condition. :)

    18 size Illinois Watch Co., Springfield, Illinois. transitional frosted/gilt mvmt. in E.A. Muckle Coin Silver Reversible case. Patent is April 3, 1883. Movement S/N 465958. Case S/N 22640.

    16 size Rockford 17 jewel mvmt. in E.A. Muckle Coin Silver Reversible case. Patent is April 3, 1883. Movement S/N 380422. Case S/N 25205.

    Doug Romero
     
  10. Greg Frauenhoff

    Greg Frauenhoff Registered User
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    Doug,

    Thanks for the extra data. If you don't have to go out of your way to provide such, which of the following markings are in your cases:

    (A) Northwestern (no "R" in shield and no "Rockford")
    (B) Northwestern and "R" in shield (but no "Rockford")
    (C) Northwestern and "R" in shield and "Rockford"
    (D) Rockford and "R" in shield (but no Northwestern)
    (E) something else

    Greg Frauenhoff

    My Watch Site
     
  11. Douglas Romero

    Douglas Romero Registered User
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    For Greg and any others who might be interested. Some links to a couple of the Muckles I have. Greg - guess you can put these down as 'D'. Sorry for the lousy movement pix.

    18 size Muckle - case is in amazing condition

    Case

    http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/3880661/1059074867286_18smuckleback.jpg

    Front cover markings

    http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/3880661/1061490126130_18smuckleinfrontcov.jpg

    Rear cover markings

    http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/3880661/1060629580034_18smuckleinbackcov.jpg

    Movement

    http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/3880661/1059863920272_18smucklemvmt.jpg

    16 size Muckle - case and watch not to shabby either

    Case

    http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/3880661/1062565592586_16smucklecaseback.jpg

    Front cover markings

    http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/3880661/1062584446761_16smuckleincasefront.jpg

    Movement

    http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/3880661/1062483826831_16smucklemvmt.jpg

    Doug Romero
     
  12. Greg Frauenhoff

    Greg Frauenhoff Registered User
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    Doug,

    Thanks for the info and pics of your sharp cases.

    Here is the updated s/n list:

    2518-Northwestern-18s KW-NOT a Muckle
    17536-Northwestern-Muckle
    21117
    21838-Northwestern?-Muckle
    21849-Northwestern w/ "R" in shield-Muckle
    22640-Rockford w/ "R" in shield-Muckle
    23203-Rockford w/ "R" in shield-Muckle
    25205-Rockford w/ "R" in shiled-Muckle-16s
    25459-Rockford w/ "R" in shield-Muckle-16s
    26638-Rockford w/ "R" in shield-Muckle-16s ebay
    28055-Rockford w/ "R" in shield-Muckle-16s
    28152-Rockford w/ "R" in shield-Muckle-16s
    28648-Rockford w/ "R" in shield-Muckle
    28827-Rockford w/ "R" in shield-Muckle
    29669-Rockford w/ "R" in shield-Muckle
    31645-Rockford w/ "R" in shield-Muckle
    31902-Rockford w/ "R" in shield-Muckle (ebay)


    The data are, of course, very limited, but it certainly doesn't appear as though huge numbers of these cases were made.

    Greg Frauenhoff

    My Watch Site
     
  13. Greg Frauenhoff

    Greg Frauenhoff Registered User
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    An old advertising cut shows a Muckle with s/n 28066 that is marked "Rockford" and also has the "R" in shield. It can't be determined if it is marked "Northwestern" as well.

    Greg Frauenhoff

    My Watch Site
     
  14. Larry Seikel

    Larry Seikel Registered User

    Dec 8, 2001
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    Hi Greg,
    Here is some more Muckle case data from eBay auctions (all of it taken from the auction descriptions and/or photos):

    22706-18S-"Rockford"-w/ "R" in shield-"Muckle"-"Coin"
    23016-18S-"Rockford"-w/ "R" in shield-(no mention of, or photo, showing "Muckle")-"Coin"
    28302-16S-"Rockford"-w/ "R" in shield-"Muckle"-(described as 14k solid gold)
    30215-18S-"Rockford"-(no mention of, or photo, showing shield marking)-"Muckle"-"Coin"
    31621-18S-"Rockford"-w/ "R" in shield-"Muckle"-"Coin"

    Regards,
    Larry Seikel
     
  15. Greg Frauenhoff

    Greg Frauenhoff Registered User
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    Whit and Larry,

    Thanks for the extra data.

    Here is the updated s/n list:

    2518-Northwestern-18s KW-NOT a Muckle
    17536-Northwestern-Muckle
    21117 (dust cover only, Pat. 1882)
    21838-Northwestern?-Muckle
    21849-Northwestern w/ "R" in shield-Muckle
    22640-Rockford w/ "R" in shield-Muckle
    22706-Rockford w/ "R" in shield-Muckle
    23016-Rockford w/ "R" in shield-Muckle
    23203-Rockford w/ "R" in shield-Muckle
    25205-Rockford w/ "R" in shiled-Muckle-16s
    25459-Rockford w/ "R" in shield-Muckle-16s
    26638-Rockford w/ "R" in shield-Muckle-16s ebay
    28055-Rockford w/ "R" in shield-Muckle-16s
    28066-Rockford w/ "R" in shield-Muckle-(size?)
    28152-Rockford w/ "R" in shield-Muckle-16s
    28302-Rockford w/ "R" in shield-Muckle-16s (14K?)
    28648-Rockford w/ "R" in shield-Muckle
    28827-Rockford w/ "R" in shield-Muckle
    29669-Rockford w/ "R" in shield-Muckle
    30215-Rockford ("R" in shield?)-Muckle
    31621-Rockford w/ "R" in shield-Muckle
    31645-Rockford w/ "R" in shield-Muckle
    31902-Rockford w/ "R" in shield-Muckle (ebay)

    Greg Frauenhoff

    My Watch Site
     
  16. Greg Frauenhoff

    Greg Frauenhoff Registered User
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    Data point for a non-Muckle Northwestern:

    611-Northwestern-18s KW-NOT a Muckle

    And just for Jon, original looking Muckle occupants:

    21838-Waltham #1949535
    23203-Elgin #1630966
    28152-Elgin #1568741

    Others can no doubt add their data if they so desire.

    Greg Frauenhoff

    My Watch Site

    [This message was edited by Greg Frauenhoff on August 22, 2003 at 13:11.]
     
  17. Jon Hanson

    Jon Hanson Registered User
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    Thank you!

    Jon Hanson, NAWCC #8801
    Founder and President Chapter 149, The Early American Watch Club
     
  18. harold

    harold Registered User
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    I have 2 watches in a Muckle case. Does anybody need the serial numbers for a data bank?
     
  19. Greg Frauenhoff

    Greg Frauenhoff Registered User
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    Harold,

    The more data the better. Feel free to add your data (serial numbers of cases, s/ns of mvts if original looking, etc.) as a reply to this thread, or if you prefer you can email it to me.

    Thanks,

    Greg Frauenhoff

    My Watch Site
     
  20. harold

    harold Registered User
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    I looked up my two Muckles and the numbers are as follows:

    Northwest # 20972. Inner case has the Muckle patent date of April 3rd, 1883. In addition it ha a number 18 in the very centre of the case. I has a P.s. Bartlett movement with movement number 2,405,663.

    Rockford # 23595. Inner case also has the Muckle patent date but no centre number.
    It has a Elgin National Watch Co. movement # 1,720,785.
    I don't have a good digital camera to take pictures of the movements or the cases. I hope this will give additional data to anyone who will record this information for future reference.
     
  21. Greg Frauenhoff

    Greg Frauenhoff Registered User
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    Here is the updated s/n list:

    611-Northwestern-18s KW-NOT a Muckle
    2518-Northwestern-18s KW-NOT a Muckle
    17536-Northwestern-Muckle
    20972-Northwestern-Muckle (Wal. #2405663)
    21117 (dust cover only, Pat. 1882)
    21838-Northwestern?-Muckle (Wal. #1949535)
    21849-Northwestern w/ "R" in shield-Muckle
    22640-Rockford w/ "R" in shield-Muckle
    22706-Rockford w/ "R" in shield-Muckle
    23016-Rockford w/ "R" in shield-Muckle
    23203-Rockford w/ "R" in shield-Muckle (Elg. #1630966)
    23595-Rockford-Muckle (Elg. #1720785)
    25205-Rockford w/ "R" in shiled-Muckle-16s
    25459-Rockford w/ "R" in shield-Muckle-16s
    26638-Rockford w/ "R" in shield-Muckle-16s ebay
    28055-Rockford w/ "R" in shield-Muckle-16s
    28066-Rockford w/ "R" in shield-Muckle-(size?)
    28152-Rockford w/ "R" in shield-Muckle-16s (Elg. #1568741)
    28302-Rockford w/ "R" in shield-Muckle-16s (14K?)
    28648-Rockford w/ "R" in shield-Muckle
    28827-Rockford w/ "R" in shield-Muckle
    29669-Rockford w/ "R" in shield-Muckle
    30215-Rockford ("R" in shield?)-Muckle
    31621-Rockford w/ "R" in shield-Muckle
    31645-Rockford w/ "R" in shield-Muckle
    31902-Rockford w/ "R" in shield-Muckle (ebay)

    Greg Frauenhoff

    My Watch Site
     
  22. Hugh Manera

    Hugh Manera Guest

    Assuming mine is a "muckle" (ie reversible / identicle ?) outer case. The data is.
    Size 18, 1879, Wm. Ellery, patent pinion, Waltham Mass. No. 2164511.
    Case..5 piece with snap on bezel, gold hinges, floral / foliage front and back. Northwest Coin 20092. Bristol England
     
  23. Greg Frauenhoff

    Greg Frauenhoff Registered User
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    Hugh,

    Thanks for posting your data.

    Greg

    Greg Frauenhoff

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  24. Hans Dahlke

    Hans Dahlke Registered User
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    Greg,

    I have two reversible 16 size cases.

    1) E.A. Muckle/Pat'd./April/3d/1883/26638 on inside case, engraved with a tropical bird and plants

    Rockford/coin/hallmark shield with some Gothic letters/26638 on outside case, with blank shield in center and engraved with similar (or same) tropical bird and plants

    gold hinges

    2) Patended/April 3d/1883/crown hallmark (similar to that used by Muhr Case Co.)/warranted/45112 on inside case, engine turned on back

    45112 on outside case, engine turning with fancy initialed shield in center and nice vermicelli around frame and lid

    This case is gold-filled.

    Both cases convert movements to sidewinder position when in open face mode.

    Greg, if you have any information on the gold filled case (it has the Muckle patent, is it by Muckle, Muhr?) I would like to learn about it. I have also an 18 size Muckle coin silver keywind case, but it is not in my hands right now, so I don't have the specifics.

    Hans
     
  25. harold

    harold Registered User
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    Your latest list does that include all serial numbers you have received? If that is the case - the two I sent you you are not on the list.
     
  26. Greg Frauenhoff

    Greg Frauenhoff Registered User
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    Hugh, Hans, Harrold, et al.,

    Here is the updated (I hope) s/n list:

    611-Northwestern-18s KW-NOT a Muckle
    2518-Northwestern-18s KW-NOT a Muckle
    17536-Northwestern-Muckle
    20092-Northwestern-Muckle (Wal. #2164511)
    20972-Northwestern-Muckle (Wal. #2405663)
    21117 (dust cover only, Pat. 1882)
    21838-Northwestern?-Muckle (Wal. #1949535)
    21849-Northwestern w/ "R" in shield-Muckle
    22640-Rockford w/ "R" in shield-Muckle
    22706-Rockford w/ "R" in shield-Muckle
    23016-Rockford w/ "R" in shield-Muckle
    23203-Rockford w/ "R" in shield-Muckle (Elg. #1630966)
    23595-Rockford-Muckle (Elg. #1720785)
    25205-Rockford w/ "R" in shiled-Muckle-16s
    25459-Rockford w/ "R" in shield-Muckle-16s
    26638-Rockford w/ "R" in shield-Muckle-16s ebay
    28055-Rockford w/ "R" in shield-Muckle-16s
    28066-Rockford w/ "R" in shield-Muckle-(size?)
    28152-Rockford w/ "R" in shield-Muckle-16s (Elg. #1568741)
    28302-Rockford w/ "R" in shield-Muckle-16s (14K?)
    28648-Rockford w/ "R" in shield-Muckle
    28827-Rockford w/ "R" in shield-Muckle
    29669-Rockford w/ "R" in shield-Muckle
    30215-Rockford ("R" in shield?)-Muckle
    31621-Rockford w/ "R" in shield-Muckle
    31645-Rockford w/ "R" in shield-Muckle
    31902-Rockford w/ "R" in shield-Muckle (ebay)
    45112-Muckle style "Patented April 3d 1883", but may have been manufactured by Muhr as it has Muhr style trademark and it is not marked either Northwestern or Rockford

    Greg Frauenhoff

    My Watch Site
     
  27. Greg Frauenhoff

    Greg Frauenhoff Registered User
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    a couple recent Muckle's from the internet:

    27249-Rockford
    29617-Rockford
     
  28. bernie levine

    bernie levine Registered User

    Aug 10, 2003
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    Greg,

    I can't remember if you also posted an earlier
    Muckle "magic watchcase" patent # 71505
    patented Nov. 26, 1867?

    bernie Levine
     
  29. Greg Frauenhoff

    Greg Frauenhoff Registered User
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    Hi Bernie,

    I don't remember mentioning that patent. Can you provide further details?

    Thanks,
     
  30. bernie levine

    bernie levine Registered User

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    Greg,

    Thanks for your quick reply.
    Here is all know:
    About 10 years ago I was browsing through
    U.S. patents and found No. 71505 Pat Nov 1867.
    At that time I made a copy of drawing page and no
    more.It did interest me since it was different
    than later 1883 patent which you have referenced.
    I can not access patents from my computer because
    I don't have a TIFF VIEWER.

    If you are unable to access it. I would be happy to go to the library
    in Cincinnti have a complete print out made and mail it to you.
    I guess I am overly curious about this earlier patent since it is
    different in some ways and wonder if the case was ever produced
    and fitted to a watch.

    bernie levine
     
  31. bernie levine

    bernie levine Registered User

    Aug 10, 2003
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    Greg
    An addition to my previous reply.

    After a closer look at the drawing, I believe the earlier patent was for a key wind key set movement because it does not show a winding stem orwinding crown...only a stem buttom to press
    and release the internally cased movement for rotation. The rest of the drawing is like the
    1883 patent. At least this is my interpretation
    of the drawing and the difference.

    bernie levine
     
  32. terry hall

    terry hall Registered User
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  33. bernie levine

    bernie levine Registered User

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    Terry,

    Thanks much for the TIFF Viewer info.
    It is much appreciated.

    bernie levine
     
  34. Greg Frauenhoff

    Greg Frauenhoff Registered User
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    Another data point, but for a non-Muckle

    11717-NorthWestern-18s KW, NOT a Muckle
     
  35. Jeff Hess

    Jeff Hess Moderator
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    23696-Rockford-Muckle (Elg. #1711075)
     
  36. Jeff Hess

    Jeff Hess Moderator
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  37. Jeff Hess

    Jeff Hess Moderator
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  38. Greg Frauenhoff

    Greg Frauenhoff Registered User
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  39. Fred Hansen

    Fred Hansen Registered User
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    Greg -

    Did you catch the Muckle cased Tremont that passed through eBay recently?

    Fred
     
  40. Greg Frauenhoff

    Greg Frauenhoff Registered User
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  41. Fred Hansen

    Fred Hansen Registered User
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    Listing is here ...

    http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&?ViewItem&item=4961589860

    ... but pics are down so you might email the seller. The case was apparently KW only, it did have a crown but this was described as decorative only and fixed to the case. I could not see any other movement screw-marks other than the Tremont's in the case.

    Fred
     
  42. Jeff Hess

    Jeff Hess Moderator
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  43. andy O

    andy O Guest

    How's about one more? Mine is 18 size, marked Rockford, Coin, "R" in shield, 29336. Movement is Rockford, grade 89, model 7, gilt, serial 328719. Original to the case.

    Dust cover shows E. A. Muckel pat'd April 3D 1883, below is the # 35, below that serial # 29336
     
  44. Greg Frauenhoff

    Greg Frauenhoff Registered User
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    Thanks Andy. I'll add it to the next update of the list.
     
  45. Jerry Freedman

    Jerry Freedman Registered User
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    I just aquired a "Muckle" I think. It is marked North Western Coin, 16755. I am a little bit hesitant about snapping off the dust cover. It seems like it is an awkward job, getting it off and back on. Any suggestions would be helpful.
     
  46. Jerry Freedman

    Jerry Freedman Registered User
    NAWCC Star Fellow NAWCC Member

    Sep 16, 2000
    659
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    Well, I snapped off the dust cover and got a surprise. The case serial number is shown as 16755, and in two other places I see 755 and 55.Inside the dust cover is 17556. However, above 6 is stamped a 5. The dust cover is also marked E A Muckle, Pat 1882. That seems to differ from some of the other cases mentoned. The watch is a gilded P S Bartlett which appears to be a model 77.
     
  47. Greg Frauenhoff

    Greg Frauenhoff Registered User
    NAWCC Fellow NAWCC Member

    Aug 25, 2000
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    Jerry,

    Thanks for the info. Any chance that we can see a pic of the case part s/nos.? Also, if the Bartlett mvt looks original to the case it would be interesting to know the serial number.
     
  48. Jerry Freedman

    Jerry Freedman Registered User
    NAWCC Star Fellow NAWCC Member

    Sep 16, 2000
    659
    16
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    Greg: I find photographing this case somewhat difficult. If I can get it done, I will e-mail you the results. With the watch in the open face mode, the case back is marked North Western Coin, and has the serial number 16755. The bezel and the frame are both marked 755. The dust cover has the E A Muckle 1882 as a circle with PAT in the center. The serial number 16756 is below the circle. Above the last 6 is a 5. The style of the 5 is exactly the same as all the other 5's on the case. It appears to be done by the same punch. The serial number of the movement is 1954020. There are no other screw marks on the case ledge. I forgot to mention above that the ledge that the case screws are touching has 55 stamped on it in the same style as the other 5's. I hope this helps.

    Jerry Freedman
     
  49. Greg Frauenhoff

    Greg Frauenhoff Registered User
    NAWCC Fellow NAWCC Member

    Aug 25, 2000
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    Jerry,

    Seems to be a neat case with a factory "error" on the numbering. No problem if you can't get a picture as your latest info should cover everything we need to know.
     
  50. Greg Frauenhoff

    Greg Frauenhoff Registered User
    NAWCC Fellow NAWCC Member

    Aug 25, 2000
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    I've added a couple neat Northwestern items to my Muckle page. 600 Climax cases per month and 200 ordinary ones.
     

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