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Discussion in 'European & Other Pocket Watches' started by captainscarlet, May 6, 2015.
Does anyone here have any idea who made this movement?
Is there a serial number anywhere?
Hi Audemars, there is no serial number. Pretty distinctive drive train though.
Maybe something under the dial? Never saw a movement like that, are there two mainsprings? How about a photo of the dial too.
Ok, here are a couple of shots, not very good though
I have seen a Patek minute repeater with a similar winding gear configuration, but this watch is a bit of a mystery to me.
A two train independent seconds pocket watch.
Please tell us the number on the inner cover.
I think the watch had a deadbeat center seconds hand.
Ooooh! G_Z.... I'm gettingnow. The only number on the case apart from 18k is "44133" which is on the inside of both covers.
Very nice watch man! I'm jealous.
swiss made by one of the great makers (Aubert; Audemars; Piguet ??) for the british customer (not often found this complication in a full plate movement).
Traded by F. C. Dupre:
That is marvellous information Gerald. I wonder if it can be pinned down to one maker. One thing that bothers me is that there appears to be a spelling mistake on the cuvette.....Jewells, when surely it should be Jewels?
Gerald, I am somewhat familiar with two-train watches because I have a L. Huguenin two-train split-seconds (rattrapante) chronograph with 1/4 second jump dial, but I have never examined a non-rattrapante two-train watch with independent seconds. I expect that some of them, perhaps even all of them, are chronographs. Is Captain Scarlet's watch a chronograph? If so, I find it surprising that the cuvette never mentions that feature, unless "independent seconds" is another name for a chronograph. If watches like Captain Scarlet's are not all chronographs, what purpose was served by the independent seconds feature, especially in watches like Captain Scarlet's that also have non-independent seconds dials?
There were two variants of two-train movements:
the flashing 1/4 second or 1/5 second movements('seconde foudroyante') and the jumping movements with 1/1 second moves of the centre seconds hand. The second ones ('seconde morte') were stopp/restart without reset. Advantage was that these watches did not loose the time sync as the traditional british 'centre seconds' where the whole movement stopps.
I think the given watch has a start/stop switch at the 7 o' clock position ?.
Both mechanisms were used before the chronograph came out, few years later chronograph/rattrapante and two train complications were combined.
Just want to say a BIG thank you to all who have contributed to this thread so far. It's a bit like finding treasure
Here is one more pic which may or may not aid with positive identification.
The button/slide at 7 (top of pic next to the hinge) does not move, although it looks as if it once did. I'm thinking that this complication has been disabled in the past, possibly due to the lack of parts in New Zealand. Kiwi ingenuity may have kicked in and eliminated the dead beat complication in favour of a time keeper?
Gerald, if I correctly understand you, originally twin-train movements were used either to achieve secondes foudroyant or secondes morte.
Seconde foudroyant was just a special sub seconds feature, i.e., one in which the 360 degree rotation of the second hand would take 15 or 20 seconds, and the hands would move in 1/4th or 1/5th of a second increments.
Seconde morte was more akin to a stop watch feature; it permitted the central second hand to be stopped without stopping the time function of the watch.
You say that both features were developed before chronographs were developed. I understand you to mean that these old secondes morte watches are not considered chronographs. Is that because there is no way to reset the hand to zero after each time the secondes morte feature was used?
Right with one clarification:
The flashing seconds of a 'seconde foudroyant' movement's sub dial with four or five divisions make a full turn in one second in four or five jumps.
I am advised that those "internal" clicks on the winding train are very typical of Audemars' 1870s - 1885 production and are one of the clues that my advisors look for.
The full plate however is not - as far as I am aware - typical although we know that they made all sorts of things for all sorts of people.
This is why I asked if there was a serial number.
Have you had the plate off?
What sort of attachment is there on the centre pivot?
Paul have you tried the #44133 ?
I don't know if it's valid but I think the winding wheel with 4 screws is a hint towards Aubert freres.
Paul, thanks for your continued interest in this watch. It would be marvellous indeed if it could be pinned down to one of your ancestors. No the movement has not been disassembled so unfortunately, as yet there have been no marks or numbers discovered.
Zantke' illustrations show the great majority of similar winding trains have three screws on the winding wheel.
There are four with four screws and about five with two.
So we'll have to wait and see if Captain S has the plate off - and maybe the dial……………….
Rest assured, as soon as this watch looks anywhere close to needing a strip down I will post any discoveries. Thanks again chaps
Sorry, couldn't resist...now back to regular programming.
Haha, captainscarlet was my nick name in the forces. I was never sure if my guys thought I was indestructible....Or they just thought I walked funny