Movement by Samual Weatherilt, Liverpool

Discussion in 'European & Other Pocket Watches' started by Nick23, Oct 28, 2016.

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  1. Nick23

    Nick23 Registered User

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    #1 Nick23, Oct 28, 2016
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2016
    This movement is signed S. Weatherilt with the address 23 Great Crossall St. The Liverpool Poll Book for 1832 confirms Samuel Weatherilt, Watchmaker, at this address.

    The movement appears to be well made and jewelled including cap jewels to the escape wheel. One or two things appear unusual about the movement. At least to me, such as:-

    The position of the banking pins at the top and bottom at the rear of the lever.

    Also there is a cross piece on the top of the curb pins that the hair spring has to be threaded through before securing it. I assume to keep the hairspring from dislocating should the watch receive a sudden jolt?

    The movement is engraved No. 1120, but the top plate and balance cock are stamped SW (Samuel Weatherilt?) 1220. Could this be a case of the engraver getting his 1s and 2s mixed up?

    I have also noticed that on the back of the dial, under the glazing is the initial W. Any possibility that it is associated with Weatherilt?


    On the subject of the engraving, I have noticed that above the 'L' in Liverpool amongst the curlycues there appears to be the letters S.I, possibly the initials of the engraver?

    Having always in the past been a collector of American watches and now switching my attention to collecting English pocket watches I would welcome any comments regarding the movement. It came without a case, but it is DSCF0029.JPG DSCF0005.JPG DSCF0008.JPG DSCF0009.JPG DSCF0017.JPG DSCF0022.JPG DSCF0026.JPG DSCF0027.JPG in perfect working order and keeping time to within a minute over 24 hours.

    Nick.
     
  2. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    #2 gmorse, Oct 28, 2016
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2016
    Hi Nick,

    First of all, what you have is not an English lever, but a Massey type III lever, identifiable by the shape of the roller. Edward Massey is himself believed to have fitted many of his escapements, (patented in 1814, and a precursor of the English lever), in watches by other makers. The stamping of the pillar plate and the cock foot with the initials "SW" suggests that the signature on the top plate is in fact the name of the frame maker, which is unusual, but unfortunately I can't find any reference to a Samuel Weatherilt, (or Weatherill; a clearer picture of the signature would be useful), amongst the known frame makers in the Prescot area. This isn't unusual, because the majority of these craftsmen remain as unidentified sets of initials.

    The closed index pins are unusual in an English movement, but not unique, and the letters engraved with the Liverpool signature are similarly unusual. Again, very few if any of the Liverpool engravers are identified. I'm not sure what you mean about the banking pins, a picture would help here.

    The "W" on the balancing enamel of the dial would have been put there by the dial maker to identify his customer.

    The different serial numbers may be the engraver's mistake, or, less probably, the "SW" frame maker could be quite unrelated to the top plate signature, and this is just an odd coincidence.

    It looks to be in very good condition, and I suppose it dates from the 1830s or 40s.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  3. Nick23

    Nick23 Registered User

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    Thanks Graham for your helpful comments. I have taken another photo of the signature and it does end in a 't', and that spelling was confirmed in the Liverpool Poll Book.

    I have also included a photo showing just one banking pin at the end of the lever where there are normally two.


    In photo 5 in my original posting the ends of the banking pins can be seen just behind and to either side of the blued screws holding the escape wheel jewel. I hope that makes sense. DSCF0031.JPG DSCF0035.JPG
     
  4. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User

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    Graham/Nick - Loomes lists 2 Samuel Weatherilts listed in Liverpool, with the comment 'probably 2 of this name in succ'
    (I) 1795-1834
    (II) 1821-1829
    but no other information.

    John
     
  5. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    #5 gmorse, Oct 28, 2016
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2016
    Hi Nick,

    Thanks for clarifying the name.

    I can see one pin next to the lever jewel, and a post just next to the barrel, whose purpose is to provide some protection for the escapement in the event of a chain breakage. This is in itself not common, and where it is fitted, it's usually made of steel.

    DSCF0031_edit.jpg DSCF0035_edit.jpg

    There's nothing visible near the escape pivot jewel. I expect there's another banking pin on the same side of the lever but inboard of its arbor, and possibly hiding under the balance cock, unless the potence itself is providing the other banking. There were various experiments in planting the bankings, including single pins through a hole or slot in the tail of the lever, applied slotted blocks, and this is another variant.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  6. Nick23

    Nick23 Registered User

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    Hi Graham,

    I can see the second banking pin inside the movement but can't take a decent photo. The end of the inner one is normally hidden under the balance cock, but with the cock removed it is visible and I have arrowed the them both in this photo.

    Regards,
    Nick

    DSCF0036.JPG
     
  7. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Nick,

    That shows it nicely. These pins were not designed to be easily adjusted, which is no bad thing; making them easily accessible from the top plate is just too tempting for the tinkering community . . .

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  8. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    #8 Allan C. Purcell, Aug 4, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 4, 2017

    Thought you would like to see this-I bought it yesturday-will tell you more when it arrives.

    Regards,

    Allan.
     
  9. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    Hi John,
    In Gore´s 1853 directory Samual Weatherilt is listed has a watchmaker. 21, Virgil Street.
    So the second one seems to have worked a lot longer.

    Regards,

    Allan.
     
  10. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    #10 Allan C. Purcell, Aug 5, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 6, 2017
    Hi Nick,
    While looking through my watch movements this weekend, I came across this un-named Liverpool movement which has its banking pins the same as your Weatherlit.See above, last photograph is best.
    Apart from that this watch has a small cutout on the end of the barrel plate. It was probably a whim of the barrel plate maker-though the only other I have like this was made by John Moncas.No I am not implying Moncas had anything to do with this movement the number is to small and it an STR. Though the watch in its day was well made. Thenk you for putting your Weatherlit on the board I think he is going to be of interest, shame there is no mention of him at the Liverpool Museum.

    Regards,

    Allan.
     
  11. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    The weatherilt watch movement arrived today, I was hopeing with it´s early number it would be a Massey escapement-sorry to say it is a single table roller, though I should think before 1830?

    Regards,

    Allan.
     
  12. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    It happns to us all I think-one rushes to get information to someone else-and full care is not taken- I have to admit the Weatherilt watch is in fact a Massey Five. It was reflection that I could see that looked like a safty pin on the lever arm. When I took my time I took off the cock and could the see the roller-the long jewel on the Massey five roller was there- but sad to say a small part of the stone is brocken off. That explained why the watch kept slipping-and stopping.
    Regards,

    Allan.
     
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