Mother’s clock

Dells

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Hi all
I finally plucked up the courage to have a look at my mothers smith’s Westminster chime that my late father bought her for there first anniversary ( he worked for smith’s ) well it must have been dropped in the house move because not only was the glass broken but as can be seen from the picture the long leaver had jumped out of the slot in the plate, I think that was why it was permanently chiming, but as I had the movement out of the case I thought I may as well strip clean and service it, although it had been done about 6 years earlier so it didn’t look to bad .
I just hope as I have done a Haller & Benzing it will come a bit easier but only time will tell.
Dell
42582137-F1C1-4E62-A270-7C2C2970397E.jpeg
 
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Dells

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Well I have mother’s clock up and running, it was well worth having a go at another Westminster chime first although that is still not chiming every now and then, it made this smiths clock so much easier although I had a problem getting the chime to go into warning then run , there are two little hooks for the stop and one is adjustable with a pin that locates to the other hook it was a pain getting that adjusted to the correct position also the locking cam was troublesome as well because there are two cams, but got there in the end (I think ) can anyone please tell me if there is a rule of thumb.
Thanks in advance Dell
 

RJSoftware

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Sometimes you can bend lever arm, ever so slight, just to add a hair more lift, so it can start. But the question is which one.

Other times bushing work needs to be done as a mesh is binding, sucking energy, preventing gears flowing at start.
 
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shutterbug

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Sometimes adjusting the two hooks at the 3/4 hour position is beneficial. If they are both in the same position at that time, they will likely work correctly independently as well.
 
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Dells

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My mother’s clock it doing everything it should, keeping good time, chiming correct when it should and striking the correct amount of times when it should, BUT at 10 to 1 every day it also strikes 10 times , anyone have any suggestions as to what could be causing this ?
Thanks in advance Dell
 

R. Croswell

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My mother’s clock it doing everything it should, keeping good time, chiming correct when it should and striking the correct amount of times when it should, BUT at 10 to 1 every day it also strikes 10 times , anyone have any suggestions as to what could be causing this ?
Thanks in advance Dell
Make sure that the rack tail drops cleanly on the lowest section of the snail at 12:00 and cleanly on the highest section of the snail at 1:00 and at no time contacts the steep twelve-one wall on the snail. A good video of the front of the movement when it is misbehaving may help.
 

Dells

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Hi R Croswell
Thanks for prompt reply as soon as I get a minute I will remove from case and do a video and check out what you say .
Dell
 

RJSoftware

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10 minutes till any hour is the moment the lever is lifting for setting up pre strike conditions.

On a count-wheel a timing issue from gear assembly causes stop lever to miss pin on pinned wheel.

On rack-snail this is moment rack drops against snail which determine amount of hour strikes. If you listen closely, a healthy rack drops with a little bounce sound.

On some movement, the tang of the rack does not possess flexing design like modern movement. Flexing rack tang was added to rack-snail to avoid deformation when owner advances hands forwards, to set time and does not stop advancement to allow movement to fully strike at 12 hour.

Allowing the strike full count at 12 lifts rack tang out of way so when 1 o'clock blade portion of snail swings around it won't get caught. After 12 strike you can advance forward as fast as you like.

This problem is specific to rack-snail as when the snail blade rises back up from 12 to 1, the snail blade forces/bends rack tang behind snail blade edge as user advances hands forwards to adjust time.

The tang stays behind count-wheel blade till time advances at later hour where snail edge is lower. This action bends rigid designed tang to where it fails to drop against snail blade edge properly.

The cure on rigid type is to simply bend tang back out so tang meets snail edge properly.

This is why when advancing hands forwards to set time I pause to allow a full strike count at the 12 hour always. Often I don't remember which of my clock have rigid or flexing rack tangs.

Besides, I ain't that much a dang hurry and who likes all that bending behind snail action even if designed to anyway.

I also dont like to turn hands backwards, though I know many clocks can get away with it. It's disastrous for count-wheel clocks with J lever.

I also know the trick of approaching hour with minute hand and backing up to the 9, to trick advance count-wheel count.

But I dont like it. Just being conservative in my habits.
 
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shutterbug

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I think RC is on the right track here. It sounds to me like the snail is dropping at 12, but is being interrupted by the 1:00 shelf during the gathering cycle. Then the rack tail is forced behind the snail, and during the 1:00 warning run it gathers the rest of the rack teeth. If I'm correct, you won't hear 12 counts at the 12:00 strike. Probably just two.
I think a lot of repairmen set the snail at the 12:00 mark when putting the movement together. The 11:00 position is much better, because it's actually the narrowest shelf. Put it right in the middle of the 11:00 shelf on top of the hour, and everything else will work as it should.
 
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Dells

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Thanks for replies it’s my day off tomorrow so I will remove movement and have a look and do a video.
Shutterbug
It strikes 12 at 12 I get the 3/4 chime at 45 to one then at 50 minutes to one it strikes 10 times then at one I get the full chime and one strike.
 

Dells

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The only thing I can see is when clock set to strike the holding pin sometimes sits on top of tooth on rack but not always ( see video )
487CE5B3-F42E-48B3-962D-75D47571D315.jpeg
 

shutterbug

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With the movement out of the case, does it still replicate the problem? Could you make a video of it doing the 10 strike thing at 1:00 warning?
 

Dells

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Hi Shutterbug
I can’t get it to do it out the case but that pin sitting on top of the rack tooth as can be seen in video when it does it it makes it drop one strike , just as example if it does it on 8 say it will only strike 7.
Dell
 

Dells

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And me, as for the rack problem ( pin sitting on top of tooth ) how do I solve that because it doesn’t always do it ?
 

shutterbug

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The gathering pallet might be loose. That would explain things. It should be tight on the shaft, and should move with the arbor and never independently. If it's loose, tap it tighter with a small hollow punch. You could use a small screwdriver and a hammer, but be very careful not to bend the arbor.
 

Dells

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I have the correct punch in a set that I used to refit it but I checked anyway and it is not loose.
 

tracerjack

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And me, as for the rack problem ( pin sitting on top of tooth ) how do I solve that because it doesn’t always do it ?
After taking a closer look at your photo, I see that the rack tail is not friction jointed as some are, but appears to be a solid, one piece unit. So, no, there is no adjustment there. The only other place I can think to look is the rack hook pin. Does it look as if the pin on the rack hook has become bent over a bit?
 
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Dells

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I have already checked that because as it got damaged in house move but the only thing that I could find damaged apart from the glass was the long leaver as it had jumped out of the front plate but when I removed it it straightened itself, could the long leaver cause the problem?
 

tracerjack

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The relationship between the rack hook pin and the rack is not affected by the long lever. The long lever only lifts the rack hook and sets in down, but doesn't position it. In one photo, the rack hook looked like it had some chew marks on it. But from your last post, I can't tell whether you meant the rack hook was damaged but you fixed it, or that you just checked for damage and didn't see any. Since bending things is always a risk, before you do any bending of the rack pin, let's see what others have to say.
 

Dells

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If you look at the picture in the first post you can see the long leaver out of the front plate I am wondering if it done something to the pin hook I hadn’t done anything to any leaver or anything for that matter because the long leaver went back straight when I removed it.
 

Dells

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I don’t know if it helps but I was having another look at the clock today and the clock struck 11 then 1 missed 12 .
 

tracerjack

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Look at where the rack tail is hitting the snail during a strike at 11 and 12. Those steps are so narrow, it is easy when putting the snail back on, to get it misaligned. Most use the 11 step when setting the snail. The rack tail needs to hit the center of that narrow step.
 
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shutterbug

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Your strike is inconsistant. There's a slight chance that it's a snail adjustment issue, but I'm still thinking there's an issue with the gathering pallet. Watch that as it strikes. I'm pretty sure you'll see it moving a bit on its arbor.
 

Dells

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Well I have moved the snail so when the rack falls it falls into the middle of the step on the snail and I have moved the hands 1/4 hour at a time for the full 12 hours and everything seems to be working as it should ( touch wood ) so I am leaving it on test stand to run until my next day off ( Wednesday) to see how it goes.
 
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Dells

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Since moving the snail it’s been running faultless so hopefully it looks like that may have been the problem, something else to add to the learning bank.
Many thanks everyone
Dell
 

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