Morbier troubles

Vernon

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I need a little help as this poor thing wont stay running. Before I did any work, it would run for about less than a minute then stop. I'm getting the same results currently. What I have done is: I have disassembled and ultrasonically cleaned. New weight cords. Polished pivots and new bushings where needed. Suspension spring cock tightened because the spring was loose then replaced spring because it broke. New (though no pretty) crutch since the old one broke during disassembly. Still would not run so: EW tipped for concentric then cleaned up points. Pallets touched up with diamond disc on mill and polished. All wheels seem to spin forever with no apparent binding.
I suspect that the anchor is the problem and am including a video.
 

Vernon

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bruce linde

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how heavy are the weights? can we see the pendulum?

and, why the long pin sticking out at the top of the crutch?
 

Joseph Bautsch

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I'm with Bruce, more photos. The drops look good and it has a good sounding tick. The several Morbier clocks that I have run on 9-10 lb weights which is normal. As Bruce suggests might be not enough weight to drive it?
 

Uhralt

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The escapement looks good. My first thought was also how heavy are the weights? Also, the weight cord might be tangled, it's not clear from the pictures.

Uhralt
 

Vernon

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Weights are 8.4 and 9.7 pounds. The long pin is temporary. IMG_20190111_173858.jpg IMG_20190111_174016.jpg IMG_20190111_173702.jpg
 

Vernon

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IMG_20190111_184404.jpg was overlapped. This shows at a full wind with same symptoms. Good thought...
 

R&A

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The leave pinions maybe very worn I had one do the same thing to me and I had to move the wheel over to a unworn spot and didn't have any problems after that.
 

shutterbug

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Depending on how much you swung the pendulum before taking the video, it seems to have a good amount of recoil. I don't believe the anchor is the issue. When it stops, take your tweezers and wiggle each wheel, working down from the escape wheel. The first one that doesn't wiggle easily will be where you should start looking for the problem.
 

Joseph Bautsch

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You say that all the wheels spin freely. Have you tried putting in two wheels and see how they interact? Start with the great wheel add the second wheel and spin. If they spin freely together remove the great wheel and put in the third wheel and spin thoes two. If they all work together then do as shutterbug says. The problem may not show up until the wheels are put under running pressure.
 

Uhralt

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Did you check the bushings of the time side great wheel? Sometimes there is considerable downward wear due to the heavy weight and maybe failing lubrication/abrasives. This would cause a meshing problem with the next pinion. The problem is often only evident when the clock is under power, not when you spin wheels manually.

Uhralt
 

Vernon

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Yes, all of the wheels and pinions work smoothly together. RA got me to thinking about pinion wear. Looking closely, the great wheel and t2 pinion had slight wear. Then it hit me that the great wheel was a little loose due to wear in the nut that holds it in place. I went ahead and made a new one today and will put everything together tomorrow and see if that does it. Does a taper pin seem appropriate here as it gives nice downward preasure? IMG_20190112_154035.jpg IMG_20190112_184841.jpg
 

Vernon

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The weights are probably correct. In my Comtoise clock they are 10 pounds each. Do you use the heavier weight on the time side?

Uhralt
I typically use the heaver weight on the strike. We'll see how the clock responds.
 

Vernon

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Did you check the bushings of the time side great wheel? Sometimes there is considerable downward wear due to the heavy weight and maybe failing lubrication/abrasives. This would cause a meshing problem with the next pinion. The problem is often only evident when the clock is under power, not when you spin wheels manually.

Uhralt
It didn't seem excessive but will recheck.
 

Joseph Bautsch

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The tapper pin will work fine as long as the gear wheel is not pushed against the winding barrel so hard that it is too difficult to turn it.
 

Uhralt

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Yes, all of the wheels and pinions work smoothly together. RA got me to thinking about pinion wear. Looking closely, the great wheel and t2 pinion had slight wear. Then it hit me that the great wheel was a little loose due to wear in the nut that holds it in place. I went ahead and made a new one today and will put everything together tomorrow and see if that does it. Does a taper pin seem appropriate here as it gives nice downward preasure? View attachment 512109 View attachment 512110
A tapered pin might work ok. just make sure that there is not too much friction when you wind the clock. That would indicate too much pressure.

Uhralt

Edit: It seems that Joseph and I are on the same wavelength.
 

Vernon

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A tapered pin might work ok. just make sure that there is not too much friction when you wind the clock. That would indicate too much pressure.

Uhralt

Edit: It seems that Joseph and I are on the same wavelength.
Ok, I'll watch for that.
I tested this afternoon with the new part. I believe that there is an improvement because it has run the longest so far. 15 minutes before I stopped it. This on risidual oil within the bushings and the heavier weight. Total pendulum swing 2.5" with about .25" overswing seems paltry to me. On any other clock I would lower the anchor. This video is about 10 min. into running.
 

Uhralt

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Is there a wolf in your house? The amplitude of the pendulum is a little small. When I observe the pallets in the video it seems that the escapement teeth touch the pallet lower than the previous wear marks show. Is there any way to lower the anchor? Maybe make a new bushing with an eccentric bore?

Uhralt
 

Vernon

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No wear on the pallets as they we're just ground and pollished. Eccentric bushing may be an option but that may be a challenge for my experience. The wolf is our young Labrador retriever that we got from Canada:)
 

Vernon

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Think before I do anything else, I'll put the wheels back on the lathe and look for a bent arbor or pivot.
 

shutterbug

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I'm not all that familiar with the Morbier clocks, but there seems something inherently wrong with the crutch system. I'm used to seeing some type of movement where the crutch meets the hanger. Your clock looks solidly fixed so that movement is impossible. Others may know whether that's a good design or not, but in my mind there should be some wiggle room to account for circular movement of the spring wire/hanger.
If the screw where that brass piece connects to the pendulum is loose to allow movement, that would be better.
 

Uhralt

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Shutterbug may be up to something. Usually the connection between pendulum and crutch has some wiggle room both where it is screwed to the pendulum and in the hole for the crutch wire. This piece should be able to rotate a tiny bit up and down (around the point where it is screwed to the pendulum) when the pendulum swings.

Uhralt
 

Vernon

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When I observe the pallets in the video it seems that the escapement teeth touch the pallet lower than the previous wear marks show.
There is slight wear which means that I should harden those.
 

Vernon

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Doesn't seem like there is room for an eccentric bushing although I have seen them on this style of clock before. All pivots wheels and pinions rechecked and in good shape. End shake ample on all but ew minimal but OK. Main wheel bushes are fine.
 

Vernon

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So it has run all night on the heavier weight and a mocked up pendulum about the same length as the other. It just couldn't run strongly or at all with the larger one.
I'm getting almost 4" total swing good overswing at the ew. and most likely will be able to handle the strike actuation once that goes in. This is a friend's clock that he got at a Mart. I was wondering, is it possible that this clock was built to have the lighter and smaller pendulum? I am sort of out of ideas. Thanks for all of your ideas and help.
 

shutterbug

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Any way to lighten the pendulum you have? It looks pretty cool. Dead beat clocks handle heavy pendulums much better than recoil types. You may be right about it being a marriage.
 

Uhralt

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So it has run all night on the heavier weight and a mocked up pendulum about the same length as the other. It just couldn't run strongly or at all with the larger one.
I'm getting almost 4" total swing good overswing at the ew. and most likely will be able to handle the strike actuation once that goes in. This is a friend's clock that he got at a Mart. I was wondering, is it possible that this clock was built to have the lighter and smaller pendulum? I am sort of out of ideas. Thanks for all of your ideas and help.
With the lighter pendulum the escapement action does look quite good. However, these big pendulums were used with the anchor escapement that you have, so the clock should be able to run with it. The older crown wheel and verge escapements couldn't handle the big pendulums, those had lighter ones. I wonder if there is anything going on with the pendulum suspension that increases friction when the heavier pendulum is used. I also notice that the suspension spring is very short. Can you try a longer one?

Uhralt
 

Vernon

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It would need to be put on the next order which may be awhile. What length would you suggest?
 

Uhralt

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I just looked it up in the book "Die Comtoiser Uhr" by Schmitt and it seems that your suspension spring is probably correct. The free spring part seems to be only about 5mm. What maybe looks different is the way the pendulum leader is attached to the spring. Can you show a picture of this point taken from the side?

Another possibility is that with the heavy pendulum the clock may be slightly out of beat. That would make it hard to keep the heavy pendulum moving.

Uhralt
 

Uhralt

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Oh. and one more thing. In your home-made wire crutch there is a large circle-shaped section just before it attaches to the dog bone connector. This section may bend and act like a spring while the pendulum is moving, especially during recoil with the heavy pendulum, robbing pendulum momentum. I think you should try to shape this section more like the original: A downward wire with a single small bent forward that attaches to the dog bone connector.

If you need the circular section for clearance with the winding arbor, it should be made from a thicker wire and as small as possible to avoid bending.
 

Vernon

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Uhralt,
I do see slight flexing at the "C" portion of the crutch! I fashioned this after the one that got damaged and used the same size wire. I wasn't proud of it for sure. I will look into redoing this based on your photo with a IMG_20190115_173509.jpg IMG_20190115_173539.jpg IMG_20190115_174552.jpg IMG_20190115_173436.jpg heavier wire.
Here are some shots of the suspension area.
Thanks!
 

Uhralt

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It seems that the top of the leader has been exchanged some time ago. I expected a simple hook that rides on the pin through the suspension spring. however this should work ok. I think that re-doing the crutch wire to make it more stiff will have an effect. Make the "c" portion as small as possible. Good luck!

Uhralt
 

Joseph Bautsch

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I have four of these clocks and I've worked on others. I've never seen a crutch set up like that. The reason it may not run is because someone put the wrong hook up between the crutch and the pendulum. Your setup looks like its jerking the pendulum back and forth. The set up on all of the ones I have and ones I've seen, the crutch wire comes straight down from the escapement with a Z bend in the end. Another flat rod is attached to it with the Z bend through a hole in the end of the rod. The other end of the flat rod goes over to the pendulum and is attached with a swivel joint. That set up allows the crutch to accommodate the arc in the pendulum and provide a smooth swing. That home made leader has a hole just above the circle opening. That is probably where the crutch flat rod should have been attached. I'll have to pull one of mine apart to get a picture of how it works which may take a day or two to get it posted.
 
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Peter John

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Your problem is the crutch wire is too flimsy. It is flexing instead of driving the pendulum. The curve around the arbor needs to be redone as well. Way too big. The crutch wire should drop straight down for about another inch below the arbor. I have one on the rack right now, at my shop. It is swinging the large pendulum very well with about 6 lb weights. Reason for that is the customer didn’t bring the weights when he brought the clock movement. I’ll take a photo when I get in tomorrow. Also your photos are showing too high upon the assembly. The problem is at the bottom where the dog bone piece is attached. Peter
 

Joseph Bautsch

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Vernon, attached are four photos of the crutch and pendulum leader attachment from two of my Morbiers. Most all of this type Morbier clock use this system to attach the escapement crutch to the pendulum leader. The brass bar between the crutch and the leader is "not locked down". It is loose on both ends to allow it to shift with the arc of the escapement crutch and the pendulum arc changes. In your case it looks like the bar attached to the crutch and the other end attached to the leader are locked down. Those joints have to be free to move with the motion of the crutch and the pendulum. The loop you have in the crutch with a spring motion won't work. All that does is rob impulse power needed to swing the pendulum. Adding more spring will only make the problem worse. The escapement crutch wire should be very stiff to prevent it from bending and taking power from the pendulum. The brass bar is - 1.96" in length and is 1.3" up from the pendulum hanging point at the bottom. Its about .032" thick. Your clock probably had the same system until a "repairman" changed it and it didn't work out very well.

Morbier #1.jpeg Morbier #2.jpeg Morbier #3.jpeg Morbier #4.jpeg
 

Peter John

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Those photos state it all as to the correct way it should be. Any I added would just be duplicates. If you use a stiff enough wire for the crutch and shape it like the photos show your clock should work. Peter
 

Vernon

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Thanks for the photos Joe. I was just getting ready to say the same Peter. I got a little excited last night after seeing Uhralts picture and went to the workshop but all I had was 1/16" and 1/8" steel. One was about what I have and the other seems too rigid. Will stop on the way home and see if there is something in between.
 

Joseph Bautsch

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Vernon, you can use a 3/32" welders mild steel filler rod. Its very close to the same diameter as the original. The mild steel filler welding rod comes in one pound tubes and are 36" in length. (around $12 to $14 each tube, on line or at a welding supply store). The rods are hard and stiff but still bendable and malleable with heat. They also come in .035", .045", 1/16", 1/8" as well as the 3/23". They come with a thin copper coating which is easy to remove with fine sand paper or steel wool.
 

Vernon

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Well, I finally sourced some .078" piano wire and remade the crutch lowering it and made a new brass connector riviting it to the leader (leaving it loose like you would a click rivit) No change in power. This gets me back to the lighter bob which it does fine with. I am using the lighter weight by the way.

IMG_20190121_112656.jpg
 

Uhralt

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That is weird. I honestly expected a success story. When you hang the heavy pendulum, is there any chance that the leader slightly touches a side of the slot in the bottom of the case? It seems that somebody has worked on the slot in the past to avoid such a problem.

Uhralt
 

Uhralt

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Well, I finally sourced some .078" piano wire and remade the crutch lowering it and made a new brass connector riviting it to the leader (leaving it loose like you would a click rivit) No change in power. This gets me back to the lighter bob which it does fine with. I am using the lighter weight by the way.

View attachment 513735
Looking at your video in post #18 it appears that the pendulum leader gets really close to the front of the slot mentioned above. Would the clock run when you put something thin under the front of the clock bottom to tilt the movement a bit backwards? Maybe a quarter coin under the left and right side?

Uhralt
 

Vernon

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Plenty of room here. During this inspection however, I noticed that the mocked up pendulum rod that I'm using is round where the hook is made which helps create some of the overswing. The one that came with the clock is more square.

IMG_20190121_150059.jpg
 

bruce linde

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i keep looking at the verge and not liking it... the visible pallet face looks good but the rest looks crudely finished. any chance it's a replacement?

if you truly have enough slop in all the pivots, and none are bent, and the crutch attachement screw in the center isn't too tight, and the weights are around 9lbs, you should be up and running.

any chance the pendulum is rubbing against the iron movement case? i had that issue with mine....
 

Vernon

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i keep looking at the verge and not liking it... the visible pallet face looks good but the rest looks crudely finished. any chance it's a replacement?

if you truly have enough slop in all the pivots, and none are bent, and the crutch attachement screw in the center isn't too tight, and the weights are around 9lbs, you should be up and running.

any chance the pendulum is rubbing against the iron movement case? i had that issue with mine....
No rubbing. Good slope in pivots and freedom at the brass connector or "dog bone". I also thought something suspect about the anchor. Looking at the exit? pallet, it has been slippered. When I was applying heat to harden, the solder started to melt so I stopped. There appears to be a gap like the thickness taken away wasn't made up.

IMG_20190121_152122.jpg
 

Uhralt

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The shape of the right (discolored) side of the anchor looks incorrect. The impulse face seems to be almost flat. When you compare the profile with the anchor shown in post #38 you will see that it should be more rounded. It seems possible that little impulse will come from this side of the anchor.

Uhralt
 

Vernon

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Oh boy, so this should be curved? This was originally but was also crowned in the center so I got rid of that and gave a flat area for the pallet to land on. I payed attention to the drop off edge as I didn't want to change that. Now what are my options?
 
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