Morbier troubles

Discussion in 'Clock Repair' started by Vernon, Jan 11, 2019.

  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  1. Vernon

    Vernon Registered User
    NAWCC Member Donor NAWCC Brass Member

    Dec 9, 2006
    453
    8
    18
    Gardener/Arborist
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I need a little help as this poor thing wont stay running. Before I did any work, it would run for about less than a minute then stop. I'm getting the same results currently. What I have done is: I have disassembled and ultrasonically cleaned. New weight cords. Polished pivots and new bushings where needed. Suspension spring cock tightened because the spring was loose then replaced spring because it broke. New (though no pretty) crutch since the old one broke during disassembly. Still would not run so: EW tipped for concentric then cleaned up points. Pallets touched up with diamond disc on mill and polished. All wheels seem to spin forever with no apparent binding.
    I suspect that the anchor is the problem and am including a video.
     
  2. Vernon

    Vernon Registered User
    NAWCC Member Donor NAWCC Brass Member

    Dec 9, 2006
    453
    8
    18
    Gardener/Arborist
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    IMG_20181217_144823.jpg IMG_20181217_145010.jpg IMG_20190111_151515.jpg A couple of pictures.

    IMG_20181217_144823.jpg IMG_20181217_145010.jpg IMG_20190111_151515.jpg
     
  3. bruce linde

    bruce linde Technical Admin
    NAWCC Member Donor

    Nov 13, 2011
    3,773
    198
    63
    web developer
    oakland, ca.
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    how heavy are the weights? can we see the pendulum?

    and, why the long pin sticking out at the top of the crutch?
     
  4. Joseph Bautsch

    Joseph Bautsch Registered User

    Dec 9, 2006
    814
    46
    28
    Male
    Retired
    Atlanta, GA
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I'm with Bruce, more photos. The drops look good and it has a good sounding tick. The several Morbier clocks that I have run on 9-10 lb weights which is normal. As Bruce suggests might be not enough weight to drive it?
     
  5. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Sep 4, 2008
    2,089
    117
    63
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    The escapement looks good. My first thought was also how heavy are the weights? Also, the weight cord might be tangled, it's not clear from the pictures.

    Uhralt
     
  6. Vernon

    Vernon Registered User
    NAWCC Member Donor NAWCC Brass Member

    Dec 9, 2006
    453
    8
    18
    Gardener/Arborist
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Weights are 8.4 and 9.7 pounds. The long pin is temporary. IMG_20190111_173858.jpg IMG_20190111_174016.jpg IMG_20190111_173702.jpg
     
  7. Vernon

    Vernon Registered User
    NAWCC Member Donor NAWCC Brass Member

    Dec 9, 2006
    453
    8
    18
    Gardener/Arborist
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    IMG_20190111_184404.jpg was overlapped. This shows at a full wind with same symptoms. Good thought...
     
  8. R&A

    R&A Registered User

    Oct 21, 2008
    3,682
    37
    48
    Country Flag:
    The leave pinions maybe very worn I had one do the same thing to me and I had to move the wheel over to a unworn spot and didn't have any problems after that.
     
  9. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Sep 4, 2008
    2,089
    117
    63
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
  10. shutterbug

    shutterbug Super Moderator
    NAWCC Member

    Oct 19, 2005
    37,662
    254
    83
    Male
    Self employed interpreter/clock repairer
    Iowa
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Depending on how much you swung the pendulum before taking the video, it seems to have a good amount of recoil. I don't believe the anchor is the issue. When it stops, take your tweezers and wiggle each wheel, working down from the escape wheel. The first one that doesn't wiggle easily will be where you should start looking for the problem.
     
  11. Joseph Bautsch

    Joseph Bautsch Registered User

    Dec 9, 2006
    814
    46
    28
    Male
    Retired
    Atlanta, GA
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    You say that all the wheels spin freely. Have you tried putting in two wheels and see how they interact? Start with the great wheel add the second wheel and spin. If they spin freely together remove the great wheel and put in the third wheel and spin thoes two. If they all work together then do as shutterbug says. The problem may not show up until the wheels are put under running pressure.
     
  12. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Sep 4, 2008
    2,089
    117
    63
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Did you check the bushings of the time side great wheel? Sometimes there is considerable downward wear due to the heavy weight and maybe failing lubrication/abrasives. This would cause a meshing problem with the next pinion. The problem is often only evident when the clock is under power, not when you spin wheels manually.

    Uhralt
     
  13. Vernon

    Vernon Registered User
    NAWCC Member Donor NAWCC Brass Member

    Dec 9, 2006
    453
    8
    18
    Gardener/Arborist
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Yes, all of the wheels and pinions work smoothly together. RA got me to thinking about pinion wear. Looking closely, the great wheel and t2 pinion had slight wear. Then it hit me that the great wheel was a little loose due to wear in the nut that holds it in place. I went ahead and made a new one today and will put everything together tomorrow and see if that does it. Does a taper pin seem appropriate here as it gives nice downward preasure? IMG_20190112_154035.jpg IMG_20190112_184841.jpg
     
  14. Vernon

    Vernon Registered User
    NAWCC Member Donor NAWCC Brass Member

    Dec 9, 2006
    453
    8
    18
    Gardener/Arborist
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I typically use the heaver weight on the strike. We'll see how the clock responds.
     
  15. Vernon

    Vernon Registered User
    NAWCC Member Donor NAWCC Brass Member

    Dec 9, 2006
    453
    8
    18
    Gardener/Arborist
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    It didn't seem excessive but will recheck.
     
  16. Joseph Bautsch

    Joseph Bautsch Registered User

    Dec 9, 2006
    814
    46
    28
    Male
    Retired
    Atlanta, GA
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    The tapper pin will work fine as long as the gear wheel is not pushed against the winding barrel so hard that it is too difficult to turn it.
     
  17. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Sep 4, 2008
    2,089
    117
    63
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    A tapered pin might work ok. just make sure that there is not too much friction when you wind the clock. That would indicate too much pressure.

    Uhralt

    Edit: It seems that Joseph and I are on the same wavelength.
     
  18. Vernon

    Vernon Registered User
    NAWCC Member Donor NAWCC Brass Member

    Dec 9, 2006
    453
    8
    18
    Gardener/Arborist
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Ok, I'll watch for that.
    I tested this afternoon with the new part. I believe that there is an improvement because it has run the longest so far. 15 minutes before I stopped it. This on risidual oil within the bushings and the heavier weight. Total pendulum swing 2.5" with about .25" overswing seems paltry to me. On any other clock I would lower the anchor. This video is about 10 min. into running.
     
  19. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Sep 4, 2008
    2,089
    117
    63
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Is there a wolf in your house? The amplitude of the pendulum is a little small. When I observe the pallets in the video it seems that the escapement teeth touch the pallet lower than the previous wear marks show. Is there any way to lower the anchor? Maybe make a new bushing with an eccentric bore?

    Uhralt
     
  20. Vernon

    Vernon Registered User
    NAWCC Member Donor NAWCC Brass Member

    Dec 9, 2006
    453
    8
    18
    Gardener/Arborist
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    No wear on the pallets as they we're just ground and pollished. Eccentric bushing may be an option but that may be a challenge for my experience. The wolf is our young Labrador retriever that we got from Canada:)
     
  21. Vernon

    Vernon Registered User
    NAWCC Member Donor NAWCC Brass Member

    Dec 9, 2006
    453
    8
    18
    Gardener/Arborist
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Think before I do anything else, I'll put the wheels back on the lathe and look for a bent arbor or pivot.
     
  22. shutterbug

    shutterbug Super Moderator
    NAWCC Member

    Oct 19, 2005
    37,662
    254
    83
    Male
    Self employed interpreter/clock repairer
    Iowa
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I'm not all that familiar with the Morbier clocks, but there seems something inherently wrong with the crutch system. I'm used to seeing some type of movement where the crutch meets the hanger. Your clock looks solidly fixed so that movement is impossible. Others may know whether that's a good design or not, but in my mind there should be some wiggle room to account for circular movement of the spring wire/hanger.
    If the screw where that brass piece connects to the pendulum is loose to allow movement, that would be better.
     
  23. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Sep 4, 2008
    2,089
    117
    63
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Shutterbug may be up to something. Usually the connection between pendulum and crutch has some wiggle room both where it is screwed to the pendulum and in the hole for the crutch wire. This piece should be able to rotate a tiny bit up and down (around the point where it is screwed to the pendulum) when the pendulum swings.

    Uhralt
     
  24. Vernon

    Vernon Registered User
    NAWCC Member Donor NAWCC Brass Member

    Dec 9, 2006
    453
    8
    18
    Gardener/Arborist
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    There is slight wear which means that I should harden those.
     
  25. Vernon

    Vernon Registered User
    NAWCC Member Donor NAWCC Brass Member

    Dec 9, 2006
    453
    8
    18
    Gardener/Arborist
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Doesn't seem like there is room for an eccentric bushing although I have seen them on this style of clock before. All pivots wheels and pinions rechecked and in good shape. End shake ample on all but ew minimal but OK. Main wheel bushes are fine.
     
  26. Vernon

    Vernon Registered User
    NAWCC Member Donor NAWCC Brass Member

    Dec 9, 2006
    453
    8
    18
    Gardener/Arborist
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    This screw is loose and allows freedom of movement.
     
  27. Vernon

    Vernon Registered User
    NAWCC Member Donor NAWCC Brass Member

    Dec 9, 2006
    453
    8
    18
    Gardener/Arborist
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    So it has run all night on the heavier weight and a mocked up pendulum about the same length as the other. It just couldn't run strongly or at all with the larger one.
    I'm getting almost 4" total swing good overswing at the ew. and most likely will be able to handle the strike actuation once that goes in. This is a friend's clock that he got at a Mart. I was wondering, is it possible that this clock was built to have the lighter and smaller pendulum? I am sort of out of ideas. Thanks for all of your ideas and help.
     
  28. shutterbug

    shutterbug Super Moderator
    NAWCC Member

    Oct 19, 2005
    37,662
    254
    83
    Male
    Self employed interpreter/clock repairer
    Iowa
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Any way to lighten the pendulum you have? It looks pretty cool. Dead beat clocks handle heavy pendulums much better than recoil types. You may be right about it being a marriage.
     
  29. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Sep 4, 2008
    2,089
    117
    63
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    With the lighter pendulum the escapement action does look quite good. However, these big pendulums were used with the anchor escapement that you have, so the clock should be able to run with it. The older crown wheel and verge escapements couldn't handle the big pendulums, those had lighter ones. I wonder if there is anything going on with the pendulum suspension that increases friction when the heavier pendulum is used. I also notice that the suspension spring is very short. Can you try a longer one?

    Uhralt
     
  30. Vernon

    Vernon Registered User
    NAWCC Member Donor NAWCC Brass Member

    Dec 9, 2006
    453
    8
    18
    Gardener/Arborist
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    It would need to be put on the next order which may be awhile. What length would you suggest?
     
  31. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Sep 4, 2008
    2,089
    117
    63
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I just looked it up in the book "Die Comtoiser Uhr" by Schmitt and it seems that your suspension spring is probably correct. The free spring part seems to be only about 5mm. What maybe looks different is the way the pendulum leader is attached to the spring. Can you show a picture of this point taken from the side?

    Another possibility is that with the heavy pendulum the clock may be slightly out of beat. That would make it hard to keep the heavy pendulum moving.

    Uhralt
     
  32. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Sep 4, 2008
    2,089
    117
    63
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Oh. and one more thing. In your home-made wire crutch there is a large circle-shaped section just before it attaches to the dog bone connector. This section may bend and act like a spring while the pendulum is moving, especially during recoil with the heavy pendulum, robbing pendulum momentum. I think you should try to shape this section more like the original: A downward wire with a single small bent forward that attaches to the dog bone connector.

    If you need the circular section for clearance with the winding arbor, it should be made from a thicker wire and as small as possible to avoid bending.
     
  33. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Sep 4, 2008
    2,089
    117
    63
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Here is a picture:
    Comtoise.JPG
     
  34. Vernon

    Vernon Registered User
    NAWCC Member Donor NAWCC Brass Member

    Dec 9, 2006
    453
    8
    18
    Gardener/Arborist
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Uhralt,
    I do see slight flexing at the "C" portion of the crutch! I fashioned this after the one that got damaged and used the same size wire. I wasn't proud of it for sure. I will look into redoing this based on your photo with a IMG_20190115_173509.jpg IMG_20190115_173539.jpg IMG_20190115_174552.jpg IMG_20190115_173436.jpg heavier wire.
    Here are some shots of the suspension area.
    Thanks!
     
  35. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Sep 4, 2008
    2,089
    117
    63
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    It seems that the top of the leader has been exchanged some time ago. I expected a simple hook that rides on the pin through the suspension spring. however this should work ok. I think that re-doing the crutch wire to make it more stiff will have an effect. Make the "c" portion as small as possible. Good luck!

    Uhralt
     
  36. Joseph Bautsch

    Joseph Bautsch Registered User

    Dec 9, 2006
    814
    46
    28
    Male
    Retired
    Atlanta, GA
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    #36 Joseph Bautsch, Jan 15, 2019 at 9:29 PM
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2019 at 9:36 PM
    I have four of these clocks and I've worked on others. I've never seen a crutch set up like that. The reason it may not run is because someone put the wrong hook up between the crutch and the pendulum. Your setup looks like its jerking the pendulum back and forth. The set up on all of the ones I have and ones I've seen, the crutch wire comes straight down from the escapement with a Z bend in the end. Another flat rod is attached to it with the Z bend through a hole in the end of the rod. The other end of the flat rod goes over to the pendulum and is attached with a swivel joint. That set up allows the crutch to accommodate the arc in the pendulum and provide a smooth swing. That home made leader has a hole just above the circle opening. That is probably where the crutch flat rod should have been attached. I'll have to pull one of mine apart to get a picture of how it works which may take a day or two to get it posted.
     
  37. Peter John

    Peter John Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Sep 4, 2018
    119
    21
    18
    Male
    Watch and clock repair
    Scottsdale, Arizona
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Your problem is the crutch wire is too flimsy. It is flexing instead of driving the pendulum. The curve around the arbor needs to be redone as well. Way too big. The crutch wire should drop straight down for about another inch below the arbor. I have one on the rack right now, at my shop. It is swinging the large pendulum very well with about 6 lb weights. Reason for that is the customer didn’t bring the weights when he brought the clock movement. I’ll take a photo when I get in tomorrow. Also your photos are showing too high upon the assembly. The problem is at the bottom where the dog bone piece is attached. Peter
     
  38. Joseph Bautsch

    Joseph Bautsch Registered User

    Dec 9, 2006
    814
    46
    28
    Male
    Retired
    Atlanta, GA
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Vernon, attached are four photos of the crutch and pendulum leader attachment from two of my Morbiers. Most all of this type Morbier clock use this system to attach the escapement crutch to the pendulum leader. The brass bar between the crutch and the leader is "not locked down". It is loose on both ends to allow it to shift with the arc of the escapement crutch and the pendulum arc changes. In your case it looks like the bar attached to the crutch and the other end attached to the leader are locked down. Those joints have to be free to move with the motion of the crutch and the pendulum. The loop you have in the crutch with a spring motion won't work. All that does is rob impulse power needed to swing the pendulum. Adding more spring will only make the problem worse. The escapement crutch wire should be very stiff to prevent it from bending and taking power from the pendulum. The brass bar is - 1.96" in length and is 1.3" up from the pendulum hanging point at the bottom. Its about .032" thick. Your clock probably had the same system until a "repairman" changed it and it didn't work out very well.

    Morbier #1.jpeg Morbier #2.jpeg Morbier #3.jpeg Morbier #4.jpeg
     
  39. Peter John

    Peter John Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Sep 4, 2018
    119
    21
    18
    Male
    Watch and clock repair
    Scottsdale, Arizona
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Those photos state it all as to the correct way it should be. Any I added would just be duplicates. If you use a stiff enough wire for the crutch and shape it like the photos show your clock should work. Peter
     
  40. Vernon

    Vernon Registered User
    NAWCC Member Donor NAWCC Brass Member

    Dec 9, 2006
    453
    8
    18
    Gardener/Arborist
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Thanks for the photos Joe. I was just getting ready to say the same Peter. I got a little excited last night after seeing Uhralts picture and went to the workshop but all I had was 1/16" and 1/8" steel. One was about what I have and the other seems too rigid. Will stop on the way home and see if there is something in between.
     
  41. Peter John

    Peter John Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Sep 4, 2018
    119
    21
    18
    Male
    Watch and clock repair
    Scottsdale, Arizona
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    The crutch wire is semihard. It won’t break but it should be stiff enough that bending it to set the beat requires some effort.
     
  42. Joseph Bautsch

    Joseph Bautsch Registered User

    Dec 9, 2006
    814
    46
    28
    Male
    Retired
    Atlanta, GA
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Vernon, you can use a 3/32" welders mild steel filler rod. Its very close to the same diameter as the original. The mild steel filler welding rod comes in one pound tubes and are 36" in length. (around $12 to $14 each tube, on line or at a welding supply store). The rods are hard and stiff but still bendable and malleable with heat. They also come in .035", .045", 1/16", 1/8" as well as the 3/23". They come with a thin copper coating which is easy to remove with fine sand paper or steel wool.
     

Share This Page