Moedl 92 ATC Premier

Discussion in 'American Pocket Watches' started by Snide, Aug 31, 2005.

  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  1. Snide

    Snide Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Mar 6, 2001
    805
    1
    18
  2. Snide

    Snide Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Mar 6, 2001
    805
    1
    18
  3. Fred Hansen

    Fred Hansen Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Aug 18, 2002
    5,158
    12
    38
    Country Flag:
    Hi Jim -

    Have you also narrowed down production figures for the hunting case Appleton Tracy "Premier"?

    I picked one of these up recently and will have to get the serial number to you.

    Fred
     
  4. Snide

    Snide Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Mar 6, 2001
    805
    1
    18
    Fred-

    As with the open face Premiers, the hunters appear with no rhyme nor reason in various ATC runs. I would be hard pressed to give you a production figure but here is some of the data; there have been reports of 9 Premier hunters (59 O.F.). The earliest occurs in run 10534001-500 which the Gray Book says are ATCs. The last occurs in run 12020401-500 which the book also says are ATCs. The open faced movements appear from 10038201-9000 to 14194501-5500 and the book also indicates them as being ATCs. There are 5 runs the book indicates as being Premiers, and for some reason they all occur in the 11 million range, but there have only been reports of Premiers in 2 of those runs. Two of those runs are hunters.

    A collectors tip-all of the hunting case movements seem to be of the same variation but there were not many early O.F. Premiers made where the serial number is next to the barrel bridge. It would also appear that very few were made after the case screw positions were changed, so those with the case screw located at the edge of the barrel bridge would be "rare".

    All of this comes with the ususal caveat, "the current research would suggest..."

    Jim
     
  5. R.Hallenbeck

    R.Hallenbeck Registered User

    Jan 17, 2004
    129
    0
    0
    Jim,
    I have serial # 10,092,589 which is marked Premier and serial # 10,092,285 from the same run of 1000 and it's marked At&Co.

    Ray
     
  6. Snide

    Snide Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Mar 6, 2001
    805
    1
    18
    Ray-

    Thanks for the numbers, I'll add them to the database. As per the above, your Premier is not a common watch. Do you have a photo of it?

    Jim
     
  7. R.Hallenbeck

    R.Hallenbeck Registered User

    Jan 17, 2004
    129
    0
    0
    Jim,
    Here is the picture of the Premier and the At&Co from the same run (I believe it's the same run of 1000 watches). Ray
     

    Attached Files:

  8. Snide

    Snide Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Mar 6, 2001
    805
    1
    18
    Ray-Great photos, thanks. From that run, I have serial numbers for 6 Premiers and 5 ATCs. Some runs are listed in the Gray Book as Premier but this one is designated as ATC. It will probably be impossible to determine accurate Premier production figures. Suffice to say though, they are collectable.

    Jim
     
  9. R.Hallenbeck

    R.Hallenbeck Registered User

    Jan 17, 2004
    129
    0
    0
    Very interesting Jim,
    I will add mod 92 numbers as I get them.
    Besides any Illinois watches, these are the "other" watches I love to focus on collecting.

    Ray
     
  10. Fred Hansen

    Fred Hansen Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Aug 18, 2002
    5,158
    12
    38
    Country Flag:
    Hi Jim -

    The serial number of the Appleton Tracy "Premier" hunting case I found is 11503144.

    Here is a pic of the movement ...

    [​IMG]

    Fred
     
  11. 49stude63

    49stude63 Registered User

    Mar 21, 2009
    1,249
    0
    36
    Male
    Technical manager
    Michigan
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Well if anyone is still collecting this data, I picked up an open face premier movement in a hunting case. The serial number is 12,053,871 it has the "Premier" around the large wind wheel with the serial number along the edge of the barrel bridge. These don't seem to be that common but when I search the past posts some of the links were long gone to determine how many open face ATC Premier movements were made. I did get the feeling not very many for the open face and even less for the hunter movements.
     
  12. Kent

    Kent Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    I'm still interested in the AT&Co Premier, thanks for the data!
     
  13. 49stude63

    49stude63 Registered User

    Mar 21, 2009
    1,249
    0
    36
    Male
    Technical manager
    Michigan
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    In the database I couldn't figure out if I should enter 1892 and then ATco or 1892 and Premier but if I entered Premier my serial number did not show up, if I entered ATCo quite a few runs turned up which from the post this version is not all that common.
     
  14. Snide

    Snide Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Mar 6, 2001
    805
    1
    18
    The Gray Book only lists 5 runs of Model 92s as being Premiers with a total production of 3000, open face and hunting case movements. Unless someone has been collecting serial numbers and updating the database, this is probably all that will show up. The problem with this is that there are runs listed as ATC that contain Premiers and the runs listed as Premier also contain movements that are just marked ATC.

    I will do my best to get the new Model 92 website up within the next few weeks.
     
  15. 49stude63

    49stude63 Registered User

    Mar 21, 2009
    1,249
    0
    36
    Male
    Technical manager
    Michigan
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    If it helps I will post pictures for future reference, it has the funky script that has been mentioned in previous posts and it also has a serial number where the last few digits were put on by someone with a major hang-over.
     
  16. rrpktwatcher

    rrpktwatcher Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Feb 1, 2007
    151
    0
    0
    Retired
    Northern VA, near Wash, DC
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    #16 rrpktwatcher, Jan 26, 2011
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2011
    Re: Model 92 ATC Premier

    Kent - F Y I - OF, sn-10534107, ca-1901 . . . listed only as AT&Co - any ideas/thoughts re: the hand-scribed numbers above the click?:???:
     

    Attached Files:

  17. Kent

    Kent Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Thanks for the data. I have no idea what those hand-scribed numbers are, perhaps Jim does?
     
  18. Dave Chaplain

    Dave Chaplain Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Possibly a new "earliest sn" seen? 10057544 marked ATCo Premier, OF, but I haven't actually checked the winding bridge serial number ...
     
  19. topspin

    topspin Registered User

    Dec 14, 2014
    1,158
    3
    0
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Re: Model 92 ATC Premier

    So did we identify the hand-scribed numbers in the end? To me it looks similar to the "watch repairers marks" often found inside the case back.

    Also (and apologies if we already covered this) is an AT&Co "Premier" any different to an AT&Co "Safety Barrel" or is it just a cosmetic change for marketing purposes?
     
  20. AllanB

    AllanB Registered User

    May 13, 2014
    75
    0
    0
    Retired Surveyor
    Nottingham , UK
    Country Flag:
    Re: Model 92 ATC Premier

    Hi All,

    I have ATCo Premier #10,057,536 which is identical to the photo in Ray Hallenbeck's post above. I have registered this with Jim at the 1892 database.

    Allan
     
  21. Larry Treiman

    Larry Treiman Registered User

    Jan 18, 2009
    3,236
    28
    48
    Tired and retired!
    So. Calif.
    #21 Larry Treiman, May 19, 2017
    Last edited: May 19, 2017
    Re: Model 92 ATC Premier

    Based on a Waltham ad announcing the introduction of the 18-size,1892-model AT&Co."Premier", the main, and possibly only difference appeared to be the fact that the "Premier" version was adjusted to five positions, while the regular version was adjusted to just three positions.

    It has been many years since I saw the ad and I have not seen the two AT&Co. versions side-by-side, so I can't comment on "cosmetic" differences. For that matter, since I never collected or studied much in the way of 18-size Walthams, I don't know if any of either version were actually marked with the number of position adjustments. I hope a Waltham 18-size expert can elucidate.

    [EDIT] I just noticed that this subject re position adjustments has also been covered in a post in a current thread started by Bill Manders yesterday (Thurs., May 18), titled "Waltham A.T. & Co." At this moment that thread is right below this one in the index. I wonder how I missed it!?!?!

    Larry Treiman
     
  22. Dave Chaplain

    Dave Chaplain Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Re: Model 92 ATC Premier

    Hi Allan, have you by chance checked the winding bridge serial number (so I don't have to check mine)? :)
     
  23. AllanB

    AllanB Registered User

    May 13, 2014
    75
    0
    0
    Retired Surveyor
    Nottingham , UK
    Country Flag:
    Re: Model 92 ATC Premier

    Dave,

    I regret I have not and am unable to so do as due to arthritis I have no fine control of my hands. Nowadays I rely on a good friend in Poland to repair and service my watches. I love acquiring and having put back into working order watches that I like and which I wish for my collection. Sometimes it is not economic to so do but as I do not sell, but keep, this is not of prime importance. (It is to my wife however!!)
    This AT&Co Premier watch has recently been acquired as part of a group of 1892 movements being sold by a chap in Canada. I acquired an OF 19j Vanguard, a 17j Htg Riverside, an early 17j OF AT&Co and this movement. All of these are complete except for the escape wheel and pallet fork. In addition a largely stripped out movement for a 17j PSB, an 845 and a 19j Crescent Street were also sent along with a box of 1892 Bits and pieces - wheels, clutches, pinions and a bag of jewel housings and jewels including, significantly, an escape wheel and pallet fork. The chap was exceedingly generous in what he sent and has significantly enhanced my 1892 collection
    The 19j Vanguard has gone off for restoration along with an 21j early Vanguard (4th Run) which came up for sale here in Uk and I was able to acquire at a very reasonable cost as it needed a centre wheel ( I have two so hopefully one will fit) and I will be sending this AT&Co Premier later in the summer. In the meantime I attach a photograph of it as received. I will be changing the rather naff dial.
    Allan
    [​IMG][​IMG]
     
  24. Dave Chaplain

    Dave Chaplain Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Re: Model 92 ATC Premier

    Nice pics, and nice collection going there Allen! The only thing holding me back from taking a screwdriver to my collection (at the moment) is time, and then my skill level! :)

    FYI - my Premier (very close in number to yours) has a double sunk roman numeral dial, with red minutes chapter numbers at the 5-minute marks, and a block "Waltham" signature ...
     
  25. AllanB

    AllanB Registered User

    May 13, 2014
    75
    0
    0
    Retired Surveyor
    Nottingham , UK
    Country Flag:
    Re: Model 92 ATC Premier

    Dave,

    Thank you for the information. I have a spare 1892 DS Block Waltham dial, sadly without the red minute chapters, which I will use unless another more suitable one becomes available.

    A question I did mean to ask both yourself and others was whether these Grey metal dials were an official Waltham replacement dial (1920/30's?) or whether they were produced by another manufacturer to meet a replacement demand. The reason I ask is that this is the second time I've acquired a 1892 movement with this dial (the other was on a 21j Vanguard and was considerably better than this one).

    Allan
     
  26. Dave Chaplain

    Dave Chaplain Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Re: Model 92 ATC Premier

    Allan, don't act too quickly! I recall a discussion where Waltham offered silver finished 18s dials for a short period, and that they ultimately didn't take with the public. So depending on the period in question, yours isn't necessarily incorrect - until that detail can be surfaced.
     
  27. topspin

    topspin Registered User

    Dec 14, 2014
    1,158
    3
    0
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Re: Model 92 ATC Premier

    Yes, the dial does look a bit rubbish, but after a good cleaning to freshen it up with whatever the appropriate cleaner/solvent may be, I feel confident the end result would be much nicer.
     
  28. ben_hutcherson

    ben_hutcherson Registered User
    Donor NAWCC Member

    Jul 15, 2009
    2,758
    5
    38
    Chemistry Graduate Student
    Kentucky
    Region Flag:
    Re: Model 92 ATC Premier

    Waltham did sell a silver "High Visibility" dial.

    I'll post this since the auction has ended. I sold this a few weeks ago.

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/23J-Waltham-Vanguard-M1892-Antique-Railroad-Pocket-Watch-Gold-Filled-Silver-Dial-/232318974249?hash=item36174a3929:g:8PEAAOSwjqVZBo5H

    I'd had this watch a while-the dial was quite thick and probably heavier than an enamel dial. The numerals are thick, almost three dimensional enamel paint.

    Later repros are relatively thin metal and are easily IDed in hand.

    I'm going to go with the above being a reproduction since the seconds bit isn't sunk. Notice that it is on my example.
     
  29. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
    Staff Member Donor Sponsor NAWCC Member

    Aug 24, 2000
    77,820
    396
    146
    Male
    retired SW dev
    Boston
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
  30. AllanB

    AllanB Registered User

    May 13, 2014
    75
    0
    0
    Retired Surveyor
    Nottingham , UK
    Country Flag:
    Re: Model 92 ATC Premier

    Thank you all. I am inclined to believe that it is a non original replacement dial but I will never the less try to clean it up.

    The fact that I have managed to obtain two such dials on 1892 movements in a small number -less than 15--of such movements is my only remaining concern as to its "waltham" originallity.

    Allan
     
  31. ben_hutcherson

    ben_hutcherson Registered User
    Donor NAWCC Member

    Jul 15, 2009
    2,758
    5
    38
    Chemistry Graduate Student
    Kentucky
    Region Flag:
    Re: Model 92 ATC Premier

    I'll go digging in a little while, but I can probably find nearly identical Hamilton, Illinois, and Elgin marked dials in my stashes.

    The seconds bit is a dead give-away on the one you posted. As I said, on an original silvered dial the seconds bit is sunk(see both my example and Tom's) and the printing is quite crisp all over.

    These type of metal dials were available as replacements from a lot of the major jobbers in the 40s-60s. It was cheap and easy way for watchmakers to "dress up" an old watch with a junky enamel dial for an easier sale or to make a customer's old watch look better.
     
  32. Kent

    Kent Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Re: Model 92 ATC Premier

    Here are the relevant ads showing the replacement of the three position adjusted Appleton, Tracy & Co. grade in Waltham's line of 18-size railroad watches with the newly introduced five position adjusted Appleton, Tracy & Co. Premier grade.


    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]


    In our data base of surviving examples of railroad watches (and other watches we find to be interesting) Ed Ueberall and I have the following model '92, 17-jewel, Appleton, Tracy & Co. movements marked "Premier" listed. They are open-face except as noted. And, as always, are subject to errors in reporting/recording. Also, it should be noted that there are Appleton, Tracy & Co.-marked movements from runs designated as AT&Co Premier that are not marked "Premier":

    10038325
    10038697
    10038815
    10057145
    10057243
    10057536 - Just Added
    10057544 - Just Added
    10057615
    10057758
    10092035
    10092589
    10092595
    10534102
    10534107
    10534125
    10534411
    10534419
    10539551 - HC
    10539573 - HC
    10539614
    10539615
    10539675
    10539745
    10539948
    11059529 - HC
    11059952
    11071607 - HC
    11071799 - HC
    11072053
    11503037 - HC
    11503144 - HC
    11503309
    11503434
    11503526
    11527449
    11527525
    12002415
    12003006
    12003139
    12003267
    12003424
    12012062
    12012076
    12012320
    12020080
    12020100
    12029026
    12029225
    12029261
    12029325
    12029340
    12053569
    12053871
    12068007
    12068282
    12068801
    12081914
    12082119
    12527501
    12527507
    12542140
    12542385
    12542411
    12566517
    12566558
    12566652
     
Loading...
Similar Threads - Moedl Premier Forum Date
Will the real Premier please stand up! American Pocket Watches Sep 27, 2017
Waltham Premier Maximus American Pocket Watches May 28, 2015
Looking for a box for my Premier Maximus American Pocket Watches Apr 22, 2015
37 sz Waltham Premier clock. American Pocket Watches Apr 19, 2015

Share This Page