Moebius 9415 on Pocketwatches

ben_hutcherson

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I'm getting ready to order some more oil, and am wondering if I should include a bottle of 9415 in my order.

I only work on American pocket watches-rarely smaller than 12 size, and mostly 16 and 18 size. All of these run at 18,000 bph and slower.

In the past, I've always used Moebius 9010 on the pallet stones.

Since I last ordered oil, though, I've learned of the existence of 9415, which is supposedly designed just for this purpose.

In reading about it, though, I see that it's generally recommended for use with modern high-beat watches.

I'm wondering if I'll see any advantage in using this with my old watches, or should I just stick to what I've been doing?

Thanks,
Ben
 

s. smith

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I have not tired it so i can,t comment on how good it is ,the one i use and like is moebius 941 it was made specifically for the pallets.
 

ben_hutcherson

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Samie,

Thanks for the response.

I went ahead and ordered a bottle of 941.
 

s. smith

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Ben i have found it too be a good oil for pallets it takes just the tinnest bit and gives good results..I know it seems crazy too some too pay 20 + dollars for a oil just for the pallets but it,s well worth it always pays too buy the best .
 

ben_hutcherson

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Yes, indeed it did hurt to pay that much for it, but I realize that it's probably going to last a long, long time.

I've been trying to avoid buying any bench supplies, as I'm going to be buying a local bench and tools in the next week(hopefully) locally from a good friend(Dan Crawley-a long time NAWCC member). I was about halfway through my last stick of pegwood, though, and running low on grease, so I figured it would be in my best interest to go ahead and make the order.

Thanks again for the help.
 

Al J

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Jul 21, 2009
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9415 is fine for slow beat watches. If you go to the ETA pages for example, and look up the tech guide for the 6497-1, an 18,000 vph pocket watch movement now used for wrist watches, you will find that they recommend using either 941 or 9415 on the pallet stones.

I use 9415 for all the watches I work on from 18,000 to 36,000, and it works fine.

Cheers, Al
 

NewbieCoachRob

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I read that it is not advisable to apply oil directly to the pallet stones, as capillary action sucks it into the bridge between them. Instead, it was recommended to apply a tiny drop of oil (didn't specify which type) to every OTHER escape wheel gear tooth.

Which is better?

To Al J: Could you provide the link for the ETA page? Also, is there an easy way of looking at a movement to determine bph? I came across this labor intensive formula in my reading:

BPH = (Gear teeth (2 x 3 x 4 x escape) x 2 ) / (pinion teeth (3rd x 4th x escape))
 
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darrahg

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The pallet oils mentioned above are the best as they will not creep on to other areas but will provide the slick oily surface for smooth operation.
 

NewbieCoachRob

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The pallet oils mentioned above are the best as they will not creep on to other areas but will provide the slick oily surface for smooth operation.
Do you also oil every other escape wheel tooth?

Can Microgliss be used, or is it too thick? I don't want to buy very expensive lubricants as a beginner, especially not a $20+ oil just for two stones. That seems excessive. Which lube do you use on the stones? I own a bottle of Moebius 8000/8. Would that work?
 

John Runciman

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Depending upon whose literature you look at whether you should be using 941 or 9415 can be confusing. Some of the technical sheets will say you can use either one depending on which you have available. Others are more specific where 9415 is listed as a grease for watches at 28,800 bph. Then 941 is listed as an oil for 18,000, 19,800 and 21,600 bph.

I think what the problem is as you look at various datasheets is when they were printed up. 941 has been available for a very long time and on the older datasheets was used for all frequencies of watches. 9415 was introduced some time after the year 2000 and originally was specified for high-frequency watches. I'm guessing what happened was after it was introduced it was discovered that it works fine on all frequency watches.

Then if you look at the description 941 is listed as oil and 9415 is listed as a grease. Because it's a grease it's supposed to stay wherever you put it longer. If you look at both bottles visually they look identical. If you turn the bottles upside down visually it's quite apparent that the 9415 is considerably thicker than the 941.

The last time I was updating my lubrication I found my local material house didn't have any 941 which was what I was using. All they had in stock was the 9415 as that is what everyone was using. So I'm using 9415 for everything and haven't noticed any difference.

John
 

darrahg

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Do you also oil every other escape wheel tooth?

Can Microgliss be used, or is it too thick? I don't want to buy very expensive lubricants as a beginner, especially not a $20+ oil just for two stones. That seems excessive. Which lube do you use on the stones? I own a bottle of Moebius 8000/8. Would that work?
I cannot recommend Microgliss as I think it would be inappropriate for pallet use. I have not used it so someone else might be able to comment on that further. I use 941 for pallet oil. I do not oil the escape wheel. I do believe a tiny bit goes on to each tooth as they make contact with the jewels.

Aha, go ahead and bite the bullett. Get the expensive stuff. You will not regret it if you plan on 'sticking' with it. The price of the oil will be small once you start getting into it seriously and begin purchasing tools such as a lathe, timer, and other insignificant tools that will cost you 40 bucks a pop. Hold yer breath and, by the way, purchase oil cups for each type of oil. That is another ten to twenty bucks or so. Breath deeply and go at it slowly.DA
 
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LarFure

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Do you also oil every other escape wheel tooth?

Can Microgliss be used, or is it too thick? I don't want to buy very expensive lubricants as a beginner, especially not a $20+ oil just for two stones. That seems excessive. Which lube do you use on the stones? I own a bottle of Moebius 8000/8. Would that work?
Jules Borel sells a watch oil they call classical watch oil. I suspect that this might be the synthetic version of the old Elgin M-56B oil that everyone used to like so much. A AW-CI member had a Swiss watch oil company analyze a sample of this oil and make a synthetic version some years ago. There was a snag in the plans when it came to selling this oil. Had something to do with the use of the Elgin name. I obtained a bottle of the Swiss synthetic and like it very much. You could use this oil for all pivots in pocket watches and get good results. I have even used it on the pallet stones to see how it would work in that application,and was pleasantly surprised with the results. But only use it for balance and escpae wheel pivots now,and use different Moebius oils for all the other pivots in a watch. For a beginner if you had a bottle of that oil,a good mainspring grease,and a container of KT-22 grease for the winding setting parts you'll be set. As you advance in watch repair you might get into the more expensive oils later.
 

NewbieCoachRob

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Jules Borel sells a watch oil they call classical watch oil. I suspect that this might be the synthetic version of the old Elgin M-56B oil that everyone used to like so much. A AW-CI member had a Swiss watch oil company analyze a sample of this oil and make a synthetic version some years ago. There was a snag in the plans when it came to selling this oil. Had something to do with the use of the Elgin name. I obtained a bottle of the Swiss synthetic and like it very much. You could use this oil for all pivots in pocket watches and get good results. I have even used it on the pallet stones to see how it would work in that application,and was pleasantly surprised with the results. But only use it for balance and escpae wheel pivots now,and use different Moebius oils for all the other pivots in a watch. For a beginner if you had a bottle of that oil,a good mainspring grease,and a container of KT-22 grease for the winding setting parts you'll be set. As you advance in watch repair you might get into the more expensive oils later.
I found the classic watch oil on J. Borel's website. Now, if I can register with them, maybe I can order it. Some parts suppliers would not let me buy from them, saying only "jewelers" were permitted to do so. So, i had my jeweler friend order from them. (Cas-ker is one example.)
Thanks for the reply. ;)
Rob
 

Al J

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I read that it is not advisable to apply oil directly to the pallet stones, as capillary action sucks it into the bridge between them. Instead, it was recommended to apply a tiny drop of oil (didn't specify which type) to every OTHER escape wheel gear tooth.

Which is better?

To Al J: Could you provide the link for the ETA page? Also, is there an easy way of looking at a movement to determine bph? I came across this labor intensive formula in my reading:

BPH = (Gear teeth (2 x 3 x 4 x escape) x 2 ) / (pinion teeth (3rd x 4th x escape))

Here is the link to the ETA customer service site:

https://secure.eta.ch/csp/DesktopDefault.aspx

At the top of the page, there is a link to "Technical Documents" and if you click on that, it will give you access to the search page. In the first drop down menu, I usually select "All Product Ranges" and this will bring up all the calibers they have information on (including quartz) when you click on the second drop down menu. You can then select 6497-1 and it will bring up options for the tech guides and manufacturing information.

For oiling the escapement, I was taught to oil the stones, so that's the way I do it. Some people oil the teeth, but I find I have more control over the amount of oil when I use the method of placing a small drop on the exit stone face, and then cycling the pallet back and forth a few times, watching the teeth carry the oil away. I then add more oil and repeat the process.

Once I've gone around the escape wheel one revolution doing this, I cycle the fork back and forth to run the escape wheel around a few times, then check the amount of oil that forms between the tooth and the stone.

IMO if you add oil to every other escape wheel tooth, you will likely have too much when you are done. Might get away with that method on pocket watches, but for wrist watches it would be too much oil.

I can post photos of how it looks to do this if you would like to see them, so let me know.

Cheers, Al
 

N2FHL

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Sorry to chime in so late on this thread. The use of the 9415 has caused me to learn a new word- thixotropic. In short, thixotropic oils behave like a grease until compressed and then perform like a thinner oil.

Apparently, the Swiss determined that the escapements on some of the higher beat watches were throwing some of the oil off. They adopted the use of the 9415, which when compressed by the escape wheel tooth coming in contact with the palet stone, behaves like the 941 we all used to use. Over time, they determined that it could also be used on all escapements.

So theoretically the 9415 should perform just the same as the 941, but is less likely to spread or end up where it is not supposed to be.

Steve
 

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