American PW Moebius 9010?

[Watching the Wheels]

Hello Friends,
I am a beginner hobby watchmaker. I purchased a 1910 Elgin 294 from a local antique store. It wasn't working, so I didn't have to spend much. I disassembled the watch and reassembled it several times for practice. The balance wheel was soaked in some dirty thick oil. I let the balance assembly soak in lighter fluid and got a vintage mainspring winder and new mainspring. Now the watch ticks and keeps time. I only let it run for a short time because the watch is still dirty. Now that I feel confidence with this new hobby. I am now looking to clean and oil the watch. From everyone I've heard from, Moebius 9010 is a critical synthetic lubricant. However, I've been having trouble finding some. Multiple sources have been sold out. I am on a backorder waitlist. I have purchased some, but it will take weeks, possibly months, to come in. I don't want to wait that long. What is the best Moebius 9010 substitute? I only want to buy a tiny quantity because I have a bottle of Moebius 9010 coming someday. I'm hoping to get it within a week. BTW, I live in MA and am willing to drive and buy a ml of 9010 from any local watchmaker. Don't know why some of these images are upside-down, and not sure how to flip in this forum. They're right side-up in my computer.
Thanks,
- John

 

[everydaycats]

Hello Friends,
I am a beginner hobby watchmaker. I purchased a 1910 Elgin 294 from a local antique store. It wasn't working, so I didn't have to spend much. I disassembled the watch and reassembled it several times for practice. The balance wheel was soaked in some dirty thick oil. I let the balance assembly soak in lighter fluid and got a vintage mainspring winder and new mainspring. Now the watch ticks and keeps time. I only let it run for a short time because the watch is still dirty. Now that I feel confidence with this new hobby. I am now looking to clean and oil the watch. From everyone I've heard from, Moebius 9010 is a critical synthetic lubricant. However, I've been having trouble finding some. Multiple sources have been sold out. I am on a backorder waitlist. I have purchased some, but it will take weeks, possibly months, to come in. I don't want to wait that long. What is the best Moebius 9010 substitute? I only want to buy a tiny quantity because I have a bottle of Moebius 9010 coming someday. I'm hoping to get it within a week. BTW, I live in MA and am willing to drive and buy a ml of 9010 from any local watchmaker. Don't know why some of these images are upside-down, and not sure how to flip in this forum. They're right side-up in my computer.
Thanks,
- John

View attachment 693509 View attachment 693510 View attachment 693511 View attachment 693512 View attachment 693513 View attachment 693514 View attachment 693515 View attachment 693516

I didn't know 9010 was in short supply. Your pics are great. Thanks for posting, and I'm sorry I can't offer more help. I checked esslinger and out of stock. Jules Borel looks to have a supply: Synt-A-Lube (Rolex 2900)
Regards

 

[Watching the Wheels]

I didn't know 9010 was in short supply. Your pics are great. Thanks for posting, and I'm sorry I can't offer more help. I checked esslinger and out of stock. Jules Borel looks to have a supply: Synt-A-Lube (Rolex 2900)
Regards

Thanks for the link. I guess I'll just have two. I can't wait to get this watch all clean and oiled. Thanks!

 

[Rick Hufnagel]

Instead of ordering two 9010s, why don't you order a 9020. It's better for the bigger movements. This way you will eventually have both oils. It'll take you forever to go through two bottles of 9010.

Just FWIW. Have fun regardless. I know it's hard to wait when your ready to go like that!

 

[Watching the Wheels]

Instead of ordering two 9010s, why don't you order a 9020. It's better for the bigger movements. This way you will eventually have both oils. It'll take you forever to go through two bottles of 9010.

Just FWIW. Have fun regardless. I know it's hard to wait when your ready to go like that!

Thanks Rick. You've been very helpful with my struggles. Count on more inquiries from me n the future.
- John

 

[gmorse]

Hi John,

You may find this document on lubrication from the BHI useful.

Regards,

Graham

Attachments

• the_practical_lubrication_of_clocks_and_watches.pdf

  1.6 MB · Views: 148

 

[Watching the Wheels]

Hi John,

You may find this document on lubrication from the BHI useful.

Regards,

Graham

Attachments

• the_practical_lubrication_of_clocks_and_watches.pdf

  1.6 MB · Views: 148

Thanks Graham, I did find this helpful. It looks like I should be getting 9020 for what I'm into. American pocket watches for now, size 18 and 16. Thanks for sharing!!
- John

 

[Dave Haynes]

I agree with Rick 9020 but before buying that Mobius, ask the supplier is they have any generic chronometer oil. The 9020 will cost an arm and a leg, sometimes you can get the generic lubricant for less than half price and there will be 4 or 5 times the amount. Since you are learning the less expensive oil will work fine. Remember: if you think you are using too little, you are not. Less is better. I am also now a firm believer in not oiling pallet fork pivots.

 

[John Runciman]

order a 9020. It's better for the bigger movements

Personally for me for pocket watches I would never use 9010 I don't even have it on my bench at work. 9020 works really well for American pocket watches. I use it on the balance pivots usually all the other pivots except the center wheel and that I use the HP 1300. As far as I can tell I've never had a amplitude issue from using 9020 in pocket watches.

Then if you want your 9010 try Amazon while you're there order some smelling salts the soft pillow to catch yourself when you fall over the price. Looks like they have five Bottles in stock I'm not saying $59 is a bargain price but if you absolutely have to have it you can have it. Other alternative sources eBay it's available all across the planet at a variety of prices that make Amazon look like a bargain. It's one of the amusing problems of buying stuff from alternative sources other than real material houses that it Made on actually cost what you perceive it should cost. In other words horological lubricants are usually expensive but some of these other sources it's extremely expensive. Although sometimes alternative sources are cheaper sometimes.

Then there's a very popular hobbyist oil same company 8000 bargain price of $10 it's lighter than 9010 and it's not synthetic. It also has a much shorter life then the synthetic oils

Then there is the other places like maybe a clock shop supposedly they have one bottle left I somehow doubt they do at the price they have it but maybe.

Moebius Synt-A-Lube Oil - Ronell Clock Co.

For high quality watches. Swiss made to the strictest quality standards. Prevents gumming and corrosion.

www.ronellclock.com

Then there's other companies like Novostar The Swiss brand with usually amusing descriptions for their various lubricants not a lot of specifications. German company Etsyntha We can usually get specifications for their lubricants..

Remember: if you think you are using too little, you are not. Less is better. I am also now a firm believer in not oiling pallet fork pivots.

By the way that conflicts with the current Swiss philosophy. Not the pallet fork pivots that's usually most people agree with that except Seiko sometimes. But what would've been considered excessive at one time is now considered normal. Both Omega Rolex have increased considerably the quantity of lubrication. If you like I can find an image and shows you what they think. Basically if you can still see the top of the pivots that's okay where one time that would have been extremely excessive.

 

[everydaycats]

Personally for me for pocket watches I would never use 9010 I don't even have it on my bench at work. 9020 works really well for American pocket watches. I use it on the balance pivots usually all the other pivots except the center wheel and that I use the HP 1300. As far as I can tell I've never had a amplitude issue from using 9020 in pocket watches.

Then if you want your 9010 try Amazon while you're there order some smelling salts the soft pillow to catch yourself when you fall over the price. Looks like they have five Bottles in stock I'm not saying $59 is a bargain price but if you absolutely have to have it you can have it. Other alternative sources eBay it's available all across the planet at a variety of prices that make Amazon look like a bargain. It's one of the amusing problems of buying stuff from alternative sources other than real material houses that it Made on actually cost what you perceive it should cost. In other words horological lubricants are usually expensive but some of these other sources it's extremely expensive. Although sometimes alternative sources are cheaper sometimes.

Then there's a very popular hobbyist oil same company 8000 bargain price of $10 it's lighter than 9010 and it's not synthetic. It also has a much shorter life then the synthetic oils

Then there is the other places like maybe a clock shop supposedly they have one bottle left I somehow doubt they do at the price they have it but maybe.

Moebius Synt-A-Lube Oil - Ronell Clock Co.

For high quality watches. Swiss made to the strictest quality standards. Prevents gumming and corrosion.

www.ronellclock.com

Then there's other companies like Novostar The Swiss brand with usually amusing descriptions for their various lubricants not a lot of specifications. German company Etsyntha We can usually get specifications for their lubricants..



By the way that conflicts with the current Swiss philosophy. Not the pallet fork pivots that's usually most people agree with that except Seiko sometimes. But what would've been considered excessive at one time is now considered normal. Both Omega Rolex have increased considerably the quantity of lubrication. If you like I can find an image and shows you what they think. Basically if you can still see the top of the pivots that's okay where one time that would have been extremely excessive.

The entire 'oiling' subject has been and will continue to be debated in the Watchmaker community. I would like to see someone do a definitive scientific project regarding watch oil—too little or too much? Where? Palet—yes or no? Viscosity of the oil used?

It seems to me that trends emerge and everyone jumps on the bandwagon without a sound reason why.

Regards

 

[Dave Haynes]

Personally for me for pocket watches I would never use 9010 I don't even have it on my bench at work. 9020 works really well for American pocket watches. I use it on the balance pivots usually all the other pivots except the center wheel and that I use the HP 1300. As far as I can tell I've never had a amplitude issue from using 9020 in pocket watches.




By the way that conflicts with the current Swiss philosophy. Not the pallet fork pivots that's usually most people agree with that except Seiko sometimes. But what would've been considered excessive at one time is now considered normal. Both Omega Rolex have increased considerably the quantity of lubrication. If you like I can find an image and shows you what they think. Basically if you can still see the top of the pivots that's okay where one time that would have been extremely excessive.

I have seen plenty of watches that are running poorly become good runners by simply oiling the pallet stones. I always do using 9415 and I do it the way the old guys did by leaving a little below the stone, bridging stone and pallet fork. When I recently started not oiling the pallet pivots I was stunned by how much better the watches ran. I'm not a trained watchmaker and don't fully understand the effect of lubricant on watch performance. I have and use only the best Mobius oils and have for years, I just used way too much. Regarding the new Swiss plan of using more lubricants: They do sell the stuff, and these are the same people who played a dirty trick on every watchmaker in the US by putting the same part in a different envelope.

 

[John Runciman]

The entire 'oiling' subject has been and will continue to be debated in the Watchmaker community. I would like to see someone do a definitive scientific project regarding watch oil—too little or too much? Where? Palet—yes or no? Viscosity of the oil used?

It seems to me that trends emerge and everyone jumps on the bandwagon without a sound reason why.

Personally I find horological lubrication a very interesting subject. So many opinions that people will fight to the grave over whether they're right or not. Technical literature spanning 100 years so when you're fighting your opinion your holding onto your ancient textbook that claims you must do it this way or else. Manufactures who can't even make up their mind like Seiko on pallet fork pivots with you should or should not. Yes it's an interesting fun subject. Made more interesting because if you do it wrong it can be very dramatic that you have done bad but if you do it right yes you get a little more amplitude but?

Then while you're embracing your books and your technical documents are you really embracing all of it? For instance at the first link looks like our balance jewels our surface treated at least when new but what happens when they get cleaned especially more than one time?. Or how about the PDF I've attached your familiar with the technical sheets from this company what about the manufacturing information sheet ever see one of those? Page 3 is interesting they surface treat the pallet fork jewels no big surprise there but what else do they surface treat is that the balance staff I see? Yes they surface treat the balance staff have you ever seen that in a technical sheet anywhere? I wonder if that's important that we do this would it keep the oil from running down the staff with time?

Then there is the second link the company that's making trillions of dollars off selling little tiny bottles of really expensive oil. But for today look at the lubrication chart just in case you don't I will quote something from it it's at the bottom of the chart by the way "The Synt-HP oils (9101, 9102, 9103, 9104) are preferentially in use for ruby bearings. For brass bearings, we recommend Microgliss D-4 or D-5." I find that a rather interesting statement in that It gives the impression that HP oils should only be used with Ruby jewels but what about the watch companies who think HP oils should be used on setting parts like steel on brass typically? Personally I prefer grease on setting parts but what if your lubricating a seven jewel pocket watch with an HP oil doesn't look like it's recommended anymore. Then conveniently they're not explaining why their HP oil is defective in this particular situation.Oh and this is a relatively new situation it used to not have this at the bottom.

Then regarding supplemental information you typically never see or even know about the third link. Whole bunch a different supplemental documents scroll down the number 40 the one on lubrication. This is actually a rather nice lubrication guide although I might disagree with their choice of lubricants in some situations. I'll let you look to the document but somewhere it does show the minimum quantity of oil on a pivot which at one time might've been considered excessive. Then the maximum quantity is or used to be well it would get you tossed in the sawdust been at school to start over too much way too much. But I have a suspicion now that the watch companies are more involved in servicing their watches are they finding out that super minimalistic doesn't last forever?

Then When you're looking at the Omega lubrication document also look at how to lubricate your escapement that should be good for a heated debate or discussion about insanity or both.

Then you asked about something unfortunate not my image found it someplace possibly on this discussion group some time in the ancient past but not sure where it came from. It's an interesting chart because it has stuff that you sometimes see from the manufacture but some of it you don't see. So they're comparing oils I'm reasonably sure the natural oil at the beginning is the 8000 oil the really cheap one that hobbyists like. Some manufacturing technical sheets for their lubrication's will cover some of the things here but I've never seen anyone cover all of the things like this. The contact angle is interesting because it relates to the most interesting of all long-term spread test. Notice who made the best oils for that? The Elgin oils interesting because a German company has synthesized it is what is available new for purchased just not in this country. Then it's a shame that they don't list and 9020 because from my own personal experience of long-term for the watches I've serviced 9020 stays where I put it but the 9010 my experience is it likes to run away and never be seen again. Then the Elgin oil has been synthesized by a German company unfortunately not available in this country. Rumor has it because they put the word Elgin on the bottle frowned upon by whoever's holding onto the name of the Elgin watch company. Because otherwise both Elgin Hamilton made really good oils beating out the Swiss unfortunately I suspect that probably come in little bottles that are really expensive but still it be nice to get them.

Oiling the Incabloc® shock absorber

The space between the pierced jewel and the endstone of the Incabloc® shock absorber forms an “oil sump” of a specific shape and size to keep the drop of oil in the exact centre and protected from dust

www.incabloc.ch

Oils | www.moebius-lubricants.ch

www.moebius-lubricants.ch

Document Downloads

www.cousinsuk.com

 

[Al J]

For instance at the first link looks like our balance jewels our surface treated at least when new but what happens when they get cleaned especially more than one time?

That's just epilame, and I suspect that most professionals would be using it anyway, so if they wanted to treat the jewels they could easily. Personally I find that if the jewel is clean, using epilame on the cap jewel isn't needed. Most movement tech guides will tell you what not to epilame, so at the factory most of the movement is epilame treated. Factory epilame will last approx. 5 or 6 cleanings, according what I was told at Omega training anyway.

I find that a rather interesting statement in that It gives the impression that HP oils should only be used with Ruby jewels

Personally I think that conclusion is overstating what is written there. I've been using HP oils on brass/bronze bushings for years without issue, and as you mention Omega recommends it. Both Omega and Moebius are Swatch group companies.

But I have a suspicion now that the watch companies are more involved in servicing their watches are they finding out that super minimalistic doesn't last forever?

I don't think you can look at just one thing like this in isolation. What I mean by that is the length of warranties has increased from the "normal" 2 year warranty on a new watch say 15 years ago, to companies who regularly offer 5, and some even as much as 10 year warranties. Warranties aren't really technical things, they are marketing things, so when the warranty war started, everyone had to play catch up, and there were absolutely consequences to that. A friend of mine who worked at a Rolex service center when they increased the warranty to 5 years, said they had to hire more people just to handle the new load of warranty claims that were there before. So if companies are extending warranties, customers expect the watch to be "improved" accordingly (when nothing actually changed) and I think the result of that is that lubrication trends tend to shift to allow longer service intervals without an intervention.

The lubrication on the pivots, yes the max. is more than I would do personally, but the escapement lubrication is a pretty standard approach for the lever, and pretty much exactly what I was taught. I'm not sure what you think is potentially insane about it, but Rolex calls for much more oil than that...

Cheers, Al

 

[John Runciman]

Personally I think that conclusion is overstating what is written there. I've been using HP oils on brass/bronze bushings for years without issue, and as you mention Omega recommends it. Both Omega and Moebius are Swatch group companies.

So what you're telling me is if the company who supposedly makes the lubrication has in their lubrication chart a suggestion of don't use this instead use something else I should disregard that because why?

 

[Al J]

So what you're telling me is if the company who supposedly makes the lubrication has in their lubrication chart a suggestion of don't use this instead use something else I should disregard that because why?

Well, you can use whatever you want - I'm not suggesting you do anything in particular, so I'm not trying to change your mind or have an argument.

However, watch brands call for 9104 on non-jeweled locations all the time, so unless you think they don't know what they are doing and haven't tested in to make sure it will work, I would conclude that it's just fine to use it on brass/bronze bushings, posts, etc.

Cheers, Al

 

[John Runciman]

so unless you think they don't know what they are doing

Yes that's exactly what I'm suggesting.

All I'm trying to say here is lubrication is confusing enough and it doesn't help at all that the manufacture of the lubrication makes a recommendation that goes against the narrative of the entire universe and Swatch group.. Or if we can't believe the lubrication company who can we believe in?

 

[Al J]

Yes that's exactly what I'm suggesting.

All I'm trying to say here is lubrication is confusing enough and it doesn't help at all that the manufacture of the lubrication makes a recommendation that goes against the narrative of the entire universe and Swatch group.. Or if we can't believe the lubrication company who can we believe in?

Sure - if you want to take that recommendation (that's all it is) as a hard and fast rule that should not be broken, that's up to you. Again, I've seen no evidence in my own work, or at any brand training I've been to, that suggests 9104 is inappropriate for applications that are not jeweled. So personally, I wouldn't read too much into one document that recommends a slightly different oil.

To me, lubrication is only confusing if you make it so. Follow the tech guide, and you will be fine.

Cheers, Al

 

[HamBunnGin]

Hi John,

You may find this document on lubrication from the BHI useful.

Regards,

Graham

Attachments

• the_practical_lubrication_of_clocks_and_watches.pdf

  1.6 MB · Views: 148

Fabulous information! Thank you ever so much!!!

 

[DeweyC]

Yes that's exactly what I'm suggesting.

A. Or if we can't believe the lubrication company who can we believe in?

The company that made the watch.

 

[DeweyC]

That's just epilame, and I suspect that most professionals would be using it anyway, so if they wanted to treat the jewels they could easily. Personally I find that if the jewel is clean, using epilame on the cap jewel isn't needed. Most movement tech guides will tell you what not to epilame, so at the factory most of the movement is epilame treated. Factory epilame will last approx. 5 or 6 cleanings, according what I was told at Omega training anyway.



Personally I think that conclusion is overstating what is written there. I've been using HP oils on brass/bronze bushings for years without issue, and as you mention Omega recommends it. Both Omega and Moebius are Swatch group companies.



I don't think you can look at just one thing like this in isolation. What I mean by that is the length of warranties has increased from the "normal" 2 year warranty on a new watch say 15 years ago, to companies who regularly offer 5, and some even as much as 10 year warranties. Warranties aren't really technical things, they are marketing things, so when the warranty war started, everyone had to play catch up, and there were absolutely consequences to that. A friend of mine who worked at a Rolex service center when they increased the warranty to 5 years, said they had to hire more people just to handle the new load of warranty claims that were there before. So if companies are extending warranties, customers expect the watch to be "improved" accordingly (when nothing actually changed) and I think the result of that is that lubrication trends tend to shift to allow longer service intervals without an intervention.

The lubrication on the pivots, yes the max. is more than I would do personally, but the escapement lubrication is a pretty standard approach for the lever, and pretty much exactly what I was taught. I'm not sure what you think is potentially insane about it, but Rolex calls for much more oil than that...

Cheers, Al

The amusing thing to me is that some watches may be in inventory for several years. if I was spending over $5K ( or whatever) on a "new" watch, I would insist it be completely service prior to delivery.

 

[Al J]

The amusing thing to me is that some watches may be in inventory for several years. if I was spending over $5K ( or whatever) on a "new" watch, I would insist it be completely service prior to delivery.

I guess it depends on how you view things. For me personally, as long as the watch is working fine, I would get some use out of it for a few years, and then have it serviced before the warranty expires.