Models 77/79, Waltham's Quirkiest?

MrRoundel

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Greetings all. I'm in the process of trying to get a proper movement for a nice faux box case that I have had for years. And I'm pretty sure that the hunter case originally housed Waltham model 1877. I base this on the location of the two screw marks, as well as the fact it has a screw in the pendant. I don't believe there are threads inside the pendant.

As I search and research, I am finding that these two models have to be the quirkiest Waltham models ever made. Subtle differences in barrel-bridges, varied number of case screws, and the fact that they all SEEM to use a winding pinion that stays with the movement with an incorporated male arbor. Oh, and there appear to have been two different pinion tooth-counts for different pinion/stems. Another quirk. The seemingly obvious proper cases also SEEM to have screw retainers in the pendant.

Between the two models it SEEMS that the model '79 was always made as an OF configuration, but the '77 goes both ways, so to speak. Is this accurate?

After looking at a number of these movements I am wondering if things may not always be as they SEEM. Does anyone out there know whether or not the models '77 and '79 should always have the winding pinion/partial stem that stays with the watch? Some examples that are missing this winding pinion seem to have larger openings in the dust-ring, and perhaps in the side of the movement. Do these indicate a more standard arbor? So, are they missing the pinion or were some of these models made to accept a more standard winding arbor without incorporated pinion? Many thanks in advance. Cheers.
 

PapaLouies

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Greetings all. I'm in the process of trying to get a proper movement for a nice faux box case that I have had for years. And I'm pretty sure that the hunter case originally housed Waltham model 1877. I base this on the location of the two screw marks, as well as the fact it has a screw in the pendant. I don't believe there are threads inside the pendant.

As I search and research, I am finding that these two models have to be the quirkiest Waltham models ever made. Subtle differences in barrel-bridges, varied number of case screws, and the fact that they all SEEM to use a winding pinion that stays with the movement with an incorporated male arbor. Oh, and there appear to have been two different pinion tooth-counts for different pinion/stems. Another quirk. The seemingly obvious proper cases also SEEM to have screw retainers in the pendant.

Between the two models it SEEMS that the model '79 was always made as an OF configuration, but the '77 goes both ways, so to speak. Is this accurate?

After looking at a number of these movements I am wondering if things may not always be as they SEEM. Does anyone out there know whether or not the models '77 and '79 should always have the winding pinion/partial stem that stays with the watch? Some examples that are missing this winding pinion seem to have larger openings in the dust-ring, and perhaps in the side of the movement. Do these indicate a more standard arbor? So, are they missing the pinion or were some of these models made to accept a more standard winding arbor without incorporated pinion? Many thanks in advance. Cheers.
I think the 1877 model hunter case only.
Regards, P/L
 

MrRoundel

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Thanks, PapaLouies. I used to be of that impression as well. However I see quite a few instances in the Waltham serial number book that show model '77's as OF. I think the book is referred to as the "Grey Book". Try looking up a number like 1327500 in that book or on the database site. You'll see what I mean. Cheers.
 

topspin

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MrRoundel

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I believe that my verbosity may have obscured what I was actually looking for in my original question. This one:

" Does anyone out there know whether or not the models '77 and '79 should always have the winding pinion/partial stem that stays with the watch? "

There seem to be uncased examples out there that are either missing the pinion/arbor or they never had them. That's what I'm trying to ascertain. I didn't find the answer in any of the previous threads that links were provided for. Many thanks to all for responding. Cheers.
 

Jerry Treiman

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The 1885 and 1909 material catalogs show both male and female winding pinions for these models. It does appear that the female winding pinion was only on some of the 1877 model hunters (Series E of 1885).
 
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MrRoundel

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Thanks for answering, Jerry. I guess I missed that female pinion in the 1909 catalog. The one I had my eye on for my faux-box case appears to be of the later type. The serial puts in close to 1885.
 

PapaLouies

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Thanks, PapaLouies. I used to be of that impression as well. However I see quite a few instances in the Waltham serial number book that show model '77's as OF. I think the book is referred to as the "Grey Book". Try looking up a number like 1327500 in that book or on the database site. You'll see what I mean. Cheers.
Hi MrRoundel,
The record indicates that 1,327,500 is a 1877 Model O.F.
The 1877 Model 1,327,686 in the same run is shown on the P.W. Data Base and is an Open Face, though listed as H.C.
Open Face Models 1877 or 1879 will have the third wheel planted next to the barrel bridge with the train layout in a clockwise direction.
I think the only way to determine if a movement is 1877 or 1879 is by checking the serial number record.
The plates look alike to me.
Regards, P/L
 

Jerry Treiman

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The record indicates that 1,327,500 is a 1877 Model O.F.
The 1877 Model 1,327,686 in the same run is shown on the P.W. Data Base and is an Open Face, though listed as H.C.
It is my understanding that the 1877 model is only for hunting cases and the 1879 is only for open-face cases. The original ledger entry for the #1,327,686 just indicates an 18-size P.S. Bartlett, stem wind, open-face. The ledger did not record the model name or year. I suspect it was an error in the gray book (one of many) that this was shown as an 1877 model instead of 1879. The movement production date was April-August 1880.
 

Jerry Treiman

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In trying to study these models and find some answers I have seen another example of just how quirky they are. I have six 1877 model movements in various states of completeness, and two of them really surprised me. Unfortunately both of those are missing their barrel bridges and balance wheels, so I have no idea what their full serial numbers are. Both appear to be what are shown in the 1885 Waltham material catalog as SERIES E, 1st series. They are distinguished by a large fine-toothed steel disk attached to the cannon pinion for setting and a distinctive setting lever that folds back on itself.

Such mechanical changes do not surprise me too much, but what really caught my attention is the fact that this set lever configuration forced Waltham to re-locate one of the dial feet. ... and this dial foot configuration is not identified in any Waltham literature or dial charts that I have seen.
1877 ud1a.jpg 1877 dials_a.jpg
 

MrRoundel

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Nice catch, Jerry. These things are wild. They must have given contemporary watchmakers nightmares in ordering parts. At least there were only 3 different types of levers. Look at how many center-wheel/cannon-pinions one has to choose from! I count 10 in the 1909 parts catalog.

Maybe I should put an '83 model in that case. :emoji_expressionless:
 

PapaLouies

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I would say there are, in fact, 1877 Model Open Face Watches.
The American Watch Co. A.T.& Co. #1073611, 1877 Model KW. is in fact Open Face.
For photos see the Pocket Watch Data Base.
This watch is one of a run of 200, so there may be many 1877 Model Open Face Watches.
The 1877 Model gear train is Counter Clockwise and the 1879 Model is Clockwise.
Regards, P/L
 

topspin

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I would say there are, in fact, 1877 Model Open Face Watches.
The American Watch Co. A.T.& Co. #1073611, 1877 Model KW. is in fact Open Face.
For photos see the Pocket Watch Data Base.
This watch is one of a run of 200, so there may be many 1877 Model Open Face Watches.
The 1877 Model gear train is Counter Clockwise and the 1879 Model is Clockwise.
Regards, P/L
Yes - according to the lookup http://nawccinfo.nawcc.org/LookupSN.php
there are something like 8000 of them - across 3 jewel counts, 4 grades, 22 runs.
But the picture of 1073611 looks like a keywind to me, albeit cased with stem/bow at 12.
 

Jerry Treiman

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The 1877 Model gear train is Counter Clockwise and the 1879 Model is Clockwise.
This could also be stated that hunting-case movements are laid out counterclockwise and open-face movements are laid out clockwise.
77-79 mvts.jpg
 

Jerry Treiman

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I would say there are, in fact, 1877 Model Open Face Watches.
The American Watch Co. A.T.& Co. #1073611, 1877 Model KW. is in fact Open Face.
PL - the point of my comment in post #14 is that the train layout first and foremost correlates to hunting or open-face configuration. Secondarily, those layouts correspond, respectively, to the 1877 or 1879 models. If a movement, like #1,073,611, is laid out like a hunting case movement (1877 model) it IS a hunting case movement regardless of how it is cased or dialed. Here is another example of an 1877 KW movement, similar to the one you cited. An open face movement has the stem opposite the 4th wheel (which carries the second hand), which would interfere with the barrel and be an impossibility for this movement.
1489055m copy.jpg
 

PapaLouies

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1877 Model Key Wind movements can be cased in Hunting or Open Face cases.
The only way to describe #1,073,611 is 1877 Model KW, OF.
Regards, P/L
 
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