Model 92 ATC Premier

Fred Hansen

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Hi Jim -

Have you also narrowed down production figures for the hunting case Appleton Tracy "Premier"?

I picked one of these up recently and will have to get the serial number to you.

Fred
 

Snide

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Fred-

As with the open face Premiers, the hunters appear with no rhyme nor reason in various ATC runs. I would be hard pressed to give you a production figure but here is some of the data; there have been reports of 9 Premier hunters (59 O.F.). The earliest occurs in run 10534001-500 which the Gray Book says are ATCs. The last occurs in run 12020401-500 which the book also says are ATCs. The open faced movements appear from 10038201-9000 to 14194501-5500 and the book also indicates them as being ATCs. There are 5 runs the book indicates as being Premiers, and for some reason they all occur in the 11 million range, but there have only been reports of Premiers in 2 of those runs. Two of those runs are hunters.

A collectors tip-all of the hunting case movements seem to be of the same variation but there were not many early O.F. Premiers made where the serial number is next to the barrel bridge. It would also appear that very few were made after the case screw positions were changed, so those with the case screw located at the edge of the barrel bridge would be "rare".

All of this comes with the ususal caveat, "the current research would suggest..."

Jim
 
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Snide

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Ray-

Thanks for the numbers, I'll add them to the database. As per the above, your Premier is not a common watch. Do you have a photo of it?

Jim
 
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Snide

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Ray-Great photos, thanks. From that run, I have serial numbers for 6 Premiers and 5 ATCs. Some runs are listed in the Gray Book as Premier but this one is designated as ATC. It will probably be impossible to determine accurate Premier production figures. Suffice to say though, they are collectable.

Jim
 

R.Hallenbeck

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Very interesting Jim,
I will add mod 92 numbers as I get them.
Besides any Illinois watches, these are the "other" watches I love to focus on collecting.

Ray
 

Fred Hansen

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Hi Jim -

The serial number of the Appleton Tracy "Premier" hunting case I found is 11503144.

Here is a pic of the movement ...

https://mb.nawcc.org/images/imported/2008/02/1.php?id=2397

Fred
 

49stude63

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Well if anyone is still collecting this data, I picked up an open face premier movement in a hunting case. The serial number is 12,053,871 it has the "Premier" around the large wind wheel with the serial number along the edge of the barrel bridge. These don't seem to be that common but when I search the past posts some of the links were long gone to determine how many open face ATC Premier movements were made. I did get the feeling not very many for the open face and even less for the hunter movements.
 

Kent

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I'm still interested in the AT&Co Premier, thanks for the data!
 

49stude63

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In the database I couldn't figure out if I should enter 1892 and then ATco or 1892 and Premier but if I entered Premier my serial number did not show up, if I entered ATCo quite a few runs turned up which from the post this version is not all that common.
 

Snide

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The Gray Book only lists 5 runs of Model 92s as being Premiers with a total production of 3000, open face and hunting case movements. Unless someone has been collecting serial numbers and updating the database, this is probably all that will show up. The problem with this is that there are runs listed as ATC that contain Premiers and the runs listed as Premier also contain movements that are just marked ATC.

I will do my best to get the new Model 92 website up within the next few weeks.
 

49stude63

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If it helps I will post pictures for future reference, it has the funky script that has been mentioned in previous posts and it also has a serial number where the last few digits were put on by someone with a major hang-over.
 

Kent

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Thanks for the data. I have no idea what those hand-scribed numbers are, perhaps Jim does?
 

Dave Chaplain

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Possibly a new "earliest sn" seen? 10057544 marked ATCo Premier, OF, but I haven't actually checked the winding bridge serial number ...
 

topspin

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Re: Model 92 ATC Premier

So did we identify the hand-scribed numbers in the end? To me it looks similar to the "watch repairers marks" often found inside the case back.

Also (and apologies if we already covered this) is an AT&Co "Premier" any different to an AT&Co "Safety Barrel" or is it just a cosmetic change for marketing purposes?
 

AllanB

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Re: Model 92 ATC Premier

Hi All,

I have ATCo Premier #10,057,536 which is identical to the photo in Ray Hallenbeck's post above. I have registered this with Jim at the 1892 database.

Allan
 

Larry Treiman

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Re: Model 92 ATC Premier

[EXCERPTED].......Also (and apologies if we already covered this) is an AT&Co "Premier" any different to an AT&Co "Safety Barrel" or is it just a cosmetic change for marketing purposes?
Based on a Waltham ad announcing the introduction of the 18-size,1892-model AT&Co."Premier", the main, and possibly only difference appeared to be the fact that the "Premier" version was adjusted to five positions, while the regular version was adjusted to just three positions.

It has been many years since I saw the ad and I have not seen the two AT&Co. versions side-by-side, so I can't comment on "cosmetic" differences. For that matter, since I never collected or studied much in the way of 18-size Walthams, I don't know if any of either version were actually marked with the number of position adjustments. I hope a Waltham 18-size expert can elucidate.

[EDIT] I just noticed that this subject re position adjustments has also been covered in a post in a current thread started by Bill Manders yesterday (Thurs., May 18), titled "Waltham A.T. & Co." At this moment that thread is right below this one in the index. I wonder how I missed it!?!?!

Larry Treiman
 
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AllanB

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Re: Model 92 ATC Premier

Dave,

I regret I have not and am unable to so do as due to arthritis I have no fine control of my hands. Nowadays I rely on a good friend in Poland to repair and service my watches. I love acquiring and having put back into working order watches that I like and which I wish for my collection. Sometimes it is not economic to so do but as I do not sell, but keep, this is not of prime importance. (It is to my wife however!!)
This AT&Co Premier watch has recently been acquired as part of a group of 1892 movements being sold by a chap in Canada. I acquired an OF 19j Vanguard, a 17j Htg Riverside, an early 17j OF AT&Co and this movement. All of these are complete except for the escape wheel and pallet fork. In addition a largely stripped out movement for a 17j PSB, an 845 and a 19j Crescent Street were also sent along with a box of 1892 Bits and pieces - wheels, clutches, pinions and a bag of jewel housings and jewels including, significantly, an escape wheel and pallet fork. The chap was exceedingly generous in what he sent and has significantly enhanced my 1892 collection
The 19j Vanguard has gone off for restoration along with an 21j early Vanguard (4th Run) which came up for sale here in Uk and I was able to acquire at a very reasonable cost as it needed a centre wheel ( I have two so hopefully one will fit) and I will be sending this AT&Co Premier later in the summer. In the meantime I attach a photograph of it as received. I will be changing the rather naff dial.
Allan
305322.jpg 305323.jpg
 

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Dave Chaplain

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Re: Model 92 ATC Premier

Nice pics, and nice collection going there Allen! The only thing holding me back from taking a screwdriver to my collection (at the moment) is time, and then my skill level! :)

FYI - my Premier (very close in number to yours) has a double sunk roman numeral dial, with red minutes chapter numbers at the 5-minute marks, and a block "Waltham" signature ...
 

AllanB

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Re: Model 92 ATC Premier

Dave,

Thank you for the information. I have a spare 1892 DS Block Waltham dial, sadly without the red minute chapters, which I will use unless another more suitable one becomes available.

A question I did mean to ask both yourself and others was whether these Grey metal dials were an official Waltham replacement dial (1920/30's?) or whether they were produced by another manufacturer to meet a replacement demand. The reason I ask is that this is the second time I've acquired a 1892 movement with this dial (the other was on a 21j Vanguard and was considerably better than this one).

Allan
 

Dave Chaplain

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Re: Model 92 ATC Premier

Allan, don't act too quickly! I recall a discussion where Waltham offered silver finished 18s dials for a short period, and that they ultimately didn't take with the public. So depending on the period in question, yours isn't necessarily incorrect - until that detail can be surfaced.
 

topspin

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Re: Model 92 ATC Premier

Yes, the dial does look a bit rubbish, but after a good cleaning to freshen it up with whatever the appropriate cleaner/solvent may be, I feel confident the end result would be much nicer.
 

ben_hutcherson

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Re: Model 92 ATC Premier

Waltham did sell a silver "High Visibility" dial.

I'll post this since the auction has ended. I sold this a few weeks ago.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/23J-Waltham...974249?hash=item36174a3929:g:8PEAAOSwjqVZBo5H

I'd had this watch a while-the dial was quite thick and probably heavier than an enamel dial. The numerals are thick, almost three dimensional enamel paint.

Later repros are relatively thin metal and are easily IDed in hand.

I'm going to go with the above being a reproduction since the seconds bit isn't sunk. Notice that it is on my example.
 

Tom McIntyre

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Re: Model 92 ATC Premier

As Ben said, these high visibility dials were an extra cost option when first introduced. They never did catch on, but I have a Premier Maximus in a very heavy 18K white gold case that has a silver dial.
305355.jpg 305356.jpg 305357.jpg
 

AllanB

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Re: Model 92 ATC Premier

Thank you all. I am inclined to believe that it is a non original replacement dial but I will never the less try to clean it up.

The fact that I have managed to obtain two such dials on 1892 movements in a small number -less than 15--of such movements is my only remaining concern as to its "waltham" originallity.

Allan
 

ben_hutcherson

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Re: Model 92 ATC Premier

The fact that I have managed to obtain two such dials on 1892 movements in a small number -less than 15--of such movements is my only remaining concern as to its "waltham" originallity.

Allan
I'll go digging in a little while, but I can probably find nearly identical Hamilton, Illinois, and Elgin marked dials in my stashes.

The seconds bit is a dead give-away on the one you posted. As I said, on an original silvered dial the seconds bit is sunk(see both my example and Tom's) and the printing is quite crisp all over.

These type of metal dials were available as replacements from a lot of the major jobbers in the 40s-60s. It was cheap and easy way for watchmakers to "dress up" an old watch with a junky enamel dial for an easier sale or to make a customer's old watch look better.
 

Kent

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Re: Model 92 ATC Premier

Based on a Waltham ad announcing the introduction of the 18-size,1892-model AT&Co."Premier", the main, and possibly only difference appeared to be the fact that the "Premier" version was adjusted to five positions, while the regular version was adjusted to just three positions.

It has been many years since I saw the ad ...
Here are the relevant ads showing the replacement of the three position adjusted Appleton, Tracy & Co. grade in Waltham's line of 18-size railroad watches with the newly introduced five position adjusted Appleton, Tracy & Co. Premier grade.


attachment.jpg attachment.jpg attachment.jpg


In our data base of surviving examples of railroad watches (and other watches we find to be interesting) Ed Ueberall and I have the following model '92, 17-jewel, Appleton, Tracy & Co. movements marked "Premier" listed. They are open-face except as noted. And, as always, are subject to errors in reporting/recording. Also, it should be noted that there are Appleton, Tracy & Co.-marked movements from runs designated as AT&Co Premier that are not marked "Premier":

10038325
10038697
10038815
10057145
10057243
10057536 - Just Added
10057544 - Just Added
10057615
10057758
10092035
10092589
10092595
10534102
10534107
10534125
10534411
10534419
10539551 - HC
10539573 - HC
10539614
10539615
10539675
10539745
10539948
11059529 - HC
11059952
11071607 - HC
11071799 - HC
11072053
11503037 - HC
11503144 - HC
11503309
11503434
11503526
11527449
11527525
12002415
12003006
12003139
12003267
12003424
12012062
12012076
12012320
12020080
12020100
12029026
12029225
12029261
12029325
12029340
12053569
12053871
12068007
12068282
12068801
12081914
12082119
12527501
12527507
12542140
12542385
12542411
12566517
12566558
12566652
 
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Jskirk

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So would this be a Premier moment thatvis not marked? I just bought this one over the weekend for 40.00 , it has a huge Alaska silver case.

20191230_182835.jpg 20191230_182841.jpg 20191230_182735.jpg
 

Kent

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If its not marked "Premier" then it isn't an AT&Co Premier grade movement.
 

Jskirk

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Ok thanks, I looked at the 1892 website and gained alot of info on this watch. That is a good site.
 

Snide

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To make things a bit more tangled, 845 movements occasionally show up in ATC runs. The Grey Book lists 12577500-600 as the first run of 845 hunters and 12652701-3200 as the first run of 845 open face movements. To date 4 hunters and 14 OF 845s have been reported previous to these runs. Most of these movements are found in ATC or ATC Premier runs but they are also found in some Crescent St runs. The 12577601-8000 run is actually listed in the GB as 17-21J ATC movements. 845s and ATCs have been reported but no Premiers and no 21J ATCs.
 
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Paul Sullivan

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I have added one more to the list 10539781that I bought last month (I acquired 10539781in 2017 ) and both are marked with the serial number and "PREMIER" stamped below it on the barrel bridge. I searched online and came up with a few more backed up by photo observations.
Here's an update of Kent's list which now totals 74 known model '92 Premiers.


Observed Model '92 Premiers
10038325
10038697
10038815
10057145
10057243
10057536
10057537 New
10057544
10057615
10057758
10092035
10092125 New
10092589
10092595
10092950 New
10534102
10534107
10534125
10534411
10534419
10539551 HC
10539573 HC
10539614
10539615
10539675
10539745
10539781 New
10539822 New
10539948
11059529 HC
11059952
11071607 HC
11071799 HC
11072053
11503037 HC
11503144 HC
11503159 New
11503309
11503434
11503526
11527449
11527525
12002415
12003006
12003139
12003267
12003424
12012062
12012076
12012320
12020080
12020100
12029026
12029225
12029261
12029325
12029340
12053569
12053871
12068007
12068282
12068420 New
12068801
12068984 New
12081914
12082119
12527501
12527507
12542140
12542385
12542411
12566517
12566558
12566652
74 Obs.
 

Paul Sullivan

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Thanks. That makes 76 obs. of model 1892 Premier marked movements.

Here is an ad, from the NAWCC library, of Waltham's announcement of it's 17j A5P ATCo. Premier. One side shows the cropped image of the movement and the serial numbers look to be 10038320 or perhaps ending in 8 or 6, placing it quite close to the first serial number in the list of
observed movements.

1902_Oct_1_AT&Co_Premier-crop_top-down-tile.jpg


10038325
10038697
10038815
10057145
10057243
10057536
10057537 New
10057544
10057615
10057758
10092035
10092125 New
10092589
10092595
10092950 New
10534102
10534107
10534125
10534411
10534419
10539551 HC
10539573 HC
10539614
10539615
10539675
10539745
10539781 New
10539822 New
10539948
11059529 HC
11059952
11071607 HC
11071799 HC
11072053
11503037 HC
11503144 HC
11503159 New
11503309
11503434
11503526
11527449
11527525
12002415
12003006
12003139
12003267
12003424
12012062
12012076
12019796 HC New
12012320
12020080
12020100
12029026
12029225
12029261
12029325
12029340
12053569
12053871
12068007
12068282
12068420 New
12068801
12068984 New
12081914
12082119
12527501
12527507
12542140
12542385
12542411
12566517
12566558
12566652
75 Obs.

Here is the18s ATCo. '82 Premier, #10539781(1900), that I got last month. A bit of corrosion on the barrel wheel but overall the movement looks good. It came in an excellent SB&B Phil. 20 yr case with out much wear. Best of all it still keeps excellent time.

Movement ATCo. 18s Premier c .JPG Dial ATCo. 18s Premier .JPG collage.jpg
 
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Paul Sullivan

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Updated ATCo. Premier list with Mike's Premier (10534267) added.

Observed Model '92 Premiers
10038325
10038697
10038815
10057145
10057243
10057536
10057537 New
10057544
10057615
10057758
10092035
10092125 New
10092589
10092595
10092950 New
10534102
10534107
10534125
10534267 New
10534411
10534419
10539551 HC
10539573 HC
10539614
10539615
10539675
10539745
10539781 New
10539822 New
10539948
11059529 HC
11059952
11071607 HC
11071799 HC
11072053
11503037 HC
11503144 HC
11503159 New
11503309
11503434
11503526
11527449
11527525
12002415
12003006
12003139
12003267
12003424
12012062
12012076
12012320
12020080
12020100
12029026
12029225
12029261
12029325
12029340
12053569
12053871
12068007
12068282
12068420 New
12068801
12068984 New
12081914
12082119
12527501
12527507
12542140
12542385
12542411
12566517
12566558
12566652
75 Obs.
 

grtnev

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Updated ATCo. Premier list with Mike's Premier (10534267) added.

Observed Model '92 Premiers
10038325
10038697
10038815
10057145
10057243
10057536
10057537 New
10057544
10057615
10057758
10092035
10092125 New
10092589
10092595
10092950 New
10534102
10534107
10534125
10534267 New
10534411
10534419
10539551 HC
10539573 HC
10539614
10539615
10539675
10539745
10539781 New
10539822 New
10539948
11059529 HC
11059952
11071607 HC
11071799 HC
11072053
11503037 HC
11503144 HC
11503159 New
11503309
11503434
11503526
11527449
11527525
12002415
12003006
12003139
12003267
12003424
12012062
12012076
12012320
12020080
12020100
12029026
12029225
12029261
12029325
12029340
12053569
12053871
12068007
12068282
12068420 New
12068801
12068984 New
12081914
12082119
12527501
12527507
12542140
12542385
12542411
12566517
12566558
12566652
75 Obs.
Out of the 75 observations, 7 are hunter case (9.3 %). According to NAWCC Waltham Co records search page, there were 3000 AT&Co Premier grade movements made; 600 HC, 2400 OF (20% HC).

However you want to look at it, AT&Co Premier grade, especially the HC variant, was a low volume movement for Waltham.

Richard

8ECEF5CB-437B-4556-B626-A3AD1DB3B426.jpeg
 

Paul Sullivan

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Thanks Kenny. I've added your Premier #10534179 as the latest on the list which stands at 76. Keep your OF Premier until you come across a HC Premier.;)


Observed Model '92 Premiers
10038325
10038697
10038815
10057145
10057243
10057536
10057537 New
10057544
10057615
10057758
10092035
10092125 New
10092589
10092595
10092950 New
10534102
10534107
10534125
10534179 latest addition
10534267 New
10534411
10534419
10539551 HC
10539573 HC
10539614
10539615
10539675
10539745
10539781 New
10539822 New
10539948
11059529 HC
11059952
11071607 HC
11071799 HC
11072053
11503037 HC
11503144 HC
11503159 New
11503309
11503434
11503526
11527449
11527525
12002415
12003006
12003139
12003267
12003424
12012062
12012076
12012320
12020080
12020100
12029026
12029225
12029261
12029325
12029340
12053569
12053871
12068007
12068282
12068420 New
12068801
12068984 New
12081914
12082119
12527501
12527507
12542140
12542385
12542411
12566517
12566558
12566652

76 Obs.
 

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