minute wheel locked on arbor

clarke

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This is out of a German box with no identification of any kind.
The strike spring broke and in the process of taking it apart, I can't get the star cam off because it's held in place behind the minute wheel, and the minute wheel is locked to it's short, front plate mounted arbor.
Taking the split washer off releases the hour wheel and snail, but doesn't release the minute wheel as the same shoulder at the top of the arbor that's holds the washer, also locks down the minute wheel. Maybe the minute wheel is not supposed to come off?
I don't want to force anything so suggestions would be welcome.
thanks.

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R. Croswell

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This is out of a German box with no identification of any kind.
The strike spring broke and in the process of taking it apart, I can't get the star cam off because it's held in place behind the minute wheel, and the minute wheel is locked to it's short, front plate mounted arbor.
Taking the split washer off releases the hour wheel and snail, but doesn't release the minute wheel as the same shoulder at the top of the arbor that's holds the washer, also locks down the minute wheel. Maybe the minute wheel is not supposed to come off?
I don't want to force anything so suggestions would be welcome.
thanks.
I'm not sure I understand the problem. By "minute wheel" are you referring to the wheel directly behind the clip washer shown? With the "washer" removed and the snail removed that wheel should normally slip off easily. Perhaps there is a burr on the arbor where the clip washer was closed? Can you post a close up picture of that section of the movement with the snail and hour wheel removed?

RC
 

clarke

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RC: Thanks for your response. Your question makes me think what I have here is not normal.
The minute wheel is the one behind the clip. And without the washer, I would have thought it would slip off, but it's locked down by what appears to be what I referred to it as a shoulder - maybe a burr as you said?.
Here's a diagram of the situation. I thought maybe the post/arbor has been peened to create the cap, but it looks so perfect that I thought it could be supposed to be that way.
Just filing it off could be the answer, BUT, without the cap, will the washer still be able to hold onto the arbor?

TD: the minute wheel turns freely.

Again, thanks.
c.

shoulder-burr.jpg

cap-burr.jpg shoulder-burr.jpg shoulder-burr.jpg
 
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shutterbug

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That is odd. What does the underside of the pin look like? May be easier to remove it from there. It might even have threads, but more likely staked.
 

R. Croswell

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This is an unusual arrangement. If the objective is just to replace the spring perhaps you can leave the front parts alone and lift off the back plate? If that front post arbor won't unscrew then it was probably not intended to be serviceable. If you find that you must renove it, and if you have a lathe and ability to make a new post, I would consider just cutting the head off and making a replacement post with a hole For a lock wire.

RC
 

shimmystep

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Agree with the above. Either work with taking the back plate away or make a new pillar for the wheel. You may find that, given the arrangement of many German clutches, it may be easier to dismantle and assemble that way anyway.
 

clarke

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RC:
Thanks for your suggestion. I had already gone in from the back plate (for the first time), so your advice justifies that decision.
If you're curious, here's what the minute wheel post looks like.
Thanks to all for your input.
c.

P1120581.jpg
 

R. Croswell

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RC:
Thanks for your suggestion. I had already gone in from the back plate (for the first time), so your advice justifies that decision.
If you're curious, here's what the minute wheel post looks like.
Thanks to all for your input.
c.

273704.jpg
If that is the way it was made then it was never intended to be removed for survive. One other possability comes to mind. Posts like this often have a hole for a lock wire or tapered pin. If someone drove a tapered pin in the hole in too tight the end of the post may have broken off and just been peened over to retain the wheel as part of a quick and dirty repair. If it really was made this way, so much for the reputation of "German engineering".

RC
 

jacks61fd

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The post that wheel rides on may have been longer with a hole through it for a pin on top of the washer , if the post broke at the hole someone may have peened the post to hold the wheel on.
 

shutterbug

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Looking at the picture, RC may have hit it on the head (sorry jacks :)). Broke off, peened over.
 

Tinker Dwight

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The end of the arbor looks to be modified.
Maybe by peening or maybe by some pliers.
Before filing a little, can you do another picture
from the side like this one but with the wheel
lifted as high as it will go. I want to get an idea
of the arbor diameter that the wheel rides on.
Tinker Dwight
 

clarke

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Hello,
All of the levers on this movement are held in place by pins so maybe this wheel was the same and the current state is a case of breakage and peening.
I won't be doing any filing as I'm an amateur and don't have the tools or know-how to fix it if I make things worse. Plus it's only one wheel and everything works as it is and for my purposes, that's fine.
But I've learned a lot from these exchanges and appreciate all the input.
c.

TD: here's your shot.

P1120586.jpg
 

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R&A

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Looks as if somebody has tried to secure the wheel by applying a washer under the wheel and not on top. If the split washer and pliers have damaged the end of the arbor it will be difficult to get the burr off next to the wheel. The end of the arbor may look as if it has been staked. I would predict the damage came from an abusive repair installation. This occurs allot on these type of arbors. As suggested. Removing the arbor from the inner side of the plate would be your best bet. Trying to file you would have to cut into the top of the leaf pinion. And trying to work the gear off would take to much pressure. Plus taking the chance of damaging the wheel and scoring the inside of the bore. Because the washer is on the bottom of the arbor. Once you have it off, you will have material to work with to re-stake it back to the plate. Clean up the burr and be back in business.
 

RJSoftware

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Just so you know -if you don't. Most German clocks you can remove the winding shaft and slip the barrel out the side to service the spring without complete disassembly.

After letting power down in mainsprings...! You start by removing the 2 click springs then the ratchet wheel retainers and slip off the ratchet wheels. The wiggle the arbors out sometimes giving a little twist, the arbors will slip right out.

As to the burr/shoulder, might be a replacement pin and somebody turned it that way. As you say the surface was looking too manufactured to have been a peened job. If the pin is right thickness to serve as an arbor for the gear, it will need a groove so the C clip can have something to grip on so that it will not slide off the arbor. If it's a small shoulder you might be able to round it off with using a pin vise. You could even use a die and thread it a tiny touch then use a nut. But that would not be original. File a groove to be original.

That gear I call the "transfer gear" because it's job is to transfer power from the minute gear to the hour cannon. But those gears are called the "motion works" which have to do with the turning of the hands. I never did learn the "transfer" gears real name.

RJ
 

oldticker

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Thanks RJ. I have actually done loads of these. Don't know if you noticed in the second picture, it looks like a washer is under the minute wheel. This usually goes on top. The OP could remove the post by removing from the bottom and making a new one if the burr is too bad.
 

R. Croswell

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.......... Don't know if you noticed in the second picture, it looks like a washer is under the minute wheel. This usually goes on top. The OP could remove the post by removing from the bottom and making a new one if the burr is too bad.
It seems pretty clear that the assembly as shown is not as it was originally, but it apparently has been functional. The original question, I believe, concerned how to disassemble these parts, not how to correct an operational issue. Please reread post # 13 where the OP said
I won't be doing any filing as I'm an amateur and don't have the tools or know-how to fix it if I make things worse. Plus it's only one wheel and everything works as it is and for my purposes, that's fine.
I'm sure that many of us would "fix" the burred post issue and put things back in "proper order", but under the stated circumstances the best advice to the OP may be to simply do nothing, or defer "repair" until the proper tools and skills have been acquired.

RC
 

oldticker

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not how to correct an operational issue./QUOTE said:
Surely the correct operation is essential? I wouldn't leave a clock in that condition knowing it wasn't right.

I think all the information he has gained here is fine if he were to try a fix. He may not have tools but may get some, who knows.
 

R. Croswell

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Surely the correct operation is essential? I wouldn't leave a clock in that condition knowing it wasn't right.

I think all the information he has gained here is fine if he were to try a fix. He may not have tools but may get some, who knows.
I agree completely but as I understand the situation, this clock is, and has been, operating OK like this. Yes, it should be made right at some point but to wait until the OP has the means to do it right rather than cobble up some fix that won't be any better than what he has now. Now it may be a different story if this was someone else's clock and I was charging them to repair/restore it. Which raises an interesting question - for those of us who do fix clocks for others. If someone brings a clock to have a spring replaced and there are other "sub-par" repairs found what should one do?

RC
 

Tinker Dwight

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My guess, looking at the original post, was that the original C clip was
lost and then replaced with a thicker clip. ( see picture )
Errors in filing a wider groove required some peening to keep the
clip on.
Tinker Dwight
 

R. Croswell

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My guess, looking at the original post, was that the original C clip was
lost and then replaced with a thicker clip. ( see picture )
Errors in filing a wider groove required some peening to keep the
clip on.
Tinker Dwight
Don't know how this one was, but I have seen plain posts that just had a split collar pressed on. Some early Sessions chimers were that way.

RC
 

oldticker

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rather than cobble up some fix that won't be any better than what he has now.
I don't cobble clocks! I take umbridge at your allegation!

I do the correct repair - MY way of doing it would be remove the post and repair PROPERLY or replace the post with a new one! Cheek.
 
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R. Croswell

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I don't cobble clocks! I take umbridge at your allegation!

I do the correct repair - MY way of doing it would be remove the post and repair PROPERLY or replace the post with a new one! Cheek.
Sorry you misunderstand. I'm sure YOU do proper repair work. I was suggesting that rather than having the OP attempt to file the part or attempt a repair that he neither has the skills or tools to properly execute that it would be better to leave it as it is than attempt to cobble up something that would be no improvement.

RC
 

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