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Discussion in 'General Clock Discussions' started by Steven Thornberry, Nov 21, 2007.
The Gilbert is 12 x 9 3/4 across base...a little under 10.
Nice to see you back, Bob. Town duties have let up a bit? Nice little cottage clock.
Now and then I get a little brake, not not very often.
A new acquisition, but I'll put it here because it is a mini, 10" high. The New Haven O.B. Time, one of seven "Black Moulding" clocks shown in Tran's NH book, page 309. It is possibly the earliest (?), shown from the 1880 catalogue while the others are shown from the 1881 catalogue. (Not sure about that statement, however.) It is the smallest of the pendulum driven clocks in the group. It seems all original except for the upper glass, whuch I'm certain is an older replacement. The gilt ornamentation is in good shape, as is the bottom glass, which has nice colors. It was listed on ebay under antique alarm clocks, not under New Haven clocks. There is no label, and the 30-hour NH movement is unsigned. It will soon need a cleaning but is currently running well.
Gilbert 30 hour time only with alarm: 6 1/8" wide by 9 3/8" tall by 3" deep. The base is a little wider. Just aquired this. It's a cuttie!
Nice mini's Steven and Vernon....ya gotta love these little guys...
Your clock is actually more interesting then the average cottage.
Based upon the case, placement of winding hole, and what little I can see of the bottom part of the movement, I believe that this clock is a Gilbert with a "dual ladder" movement with integral alarm. IMHO, makes this one a some cuts above the rest.
There was just a very recent discussion about these Gilberts. See the thread:
Also see the links to some Bulletin references therein which are worthwhile reading (can only be accessed by members).
Disclaimer:I freely provide this information without restriction to it's use as has been my established practice.
Thanks for the link on the post RM. I thought that I might be pulling the dial sooner than later.
Yes, that's the little beauty right there. I believe SBT went to Winsted to work for Gilbert and the design of these movements is credited to him.
Here are some of mine. The one next to the Seth Thomas is a Geo. B. Owen, the one on the far right is a Gilbert rosewood.
I forgot my little Jerome!
I (heart) cottage clocks. Whether common or rare, just like them.
In my neck of the woods, there's an outdoor flea market that's always worth a pick as every once in a while stuff does show up.
Not too long ago, I stumbled upon a miniature ST cottage alarm timepiece on a table for what I considered was a reasonable price, especially when one contemplates the sorta crazy prices they were bringing a few years back. So a deal was quickly struck (had to be cash). I assumed when I made my purchase it was a typical 30 hour time piece. I was pleasantly surprised otherwise. Read on.
Doing a bit of reading turned up some interesting stuff that I thought might be of interest to a few.
Owen Burt wrote some wonderful articles for the Bulletin on these little ST cottages. The one I will refer to in this posting is:
The case is rosewood veneer on pine and stands about 9 inches tall. It survives in wonderful original condition. Note there is no door. The pendulum is accessed through an oval opening in the bottom. A pain in the neck. See figures 2.5, 2.8, and 2.9. This is referred to as "cabinet #1". Apparently the arrangement of performing a rectal exam on the clock every time one wished to adjust the pendulum was not well received, so this case was made relatively briefly from 1865-8.
There is a glazed spun brass bezel over a printed light tan paper dial applied to a zinc dial pan. Note the 1/4 hour markers. The use of a light tan paper dial gave me some pause as I wondered if it was a replacement. But it looked "right" and genuinely aged. See figures 2.18-2.21. It's the right dial and bezel and it even bears the patent date and the method for locking in the bezel glass mentioned. This type of paper dial was used from 1866 to the middle of 1867 when the 1/4 hour markers were dropped. Not earth shattering but neat.
The outer surface of the back board bears the tan paper maker's label. It's partially obscured by a series of repair labels. See figure 2.10. This is the "T-01" label used from 1865-8 of which fewer are printed on tan paper applied to the outside of the back board.
Now for the time only steel spring driven signed brass movement which is mounted to the back board with cast iron strips staked to the back of the movement. See figures 2.11, 2.12, 1.13. Doing some measurements, tooth counts, and other comparisons, I realized this was an 8 day movement! And yes, it does run for 8 days. In about 1864 ST wished to introduce an 8 day cottage movement. To do so at the lowest cost of retooling possible, they reused that for the 30 hour movement with some modifications to create an 8 day one. See the article for details. The new 8 day movement was introduced in 1865 mounted with wood blocks. The use of the iron mounting strips replaced that method in 1866. This is referred to as the "3B-G" movement. The version with the separate alarm mounted below is referred to as the "3C-Q".
In my experience, which is admittedly not extensive with this type of miniature cottage, 8 day versions seem to be much less common than the 30 hour ones. Furthermore, all of this helps to date this clock to a relatively narrow window of 1866-7.
So, there are genuinely antique American clocks out there at a reasonabe price that with a little digging can tell an interesting story.
Interesting little guy. I used to own one of these cottage cabinets, and it was an eight day, or at least it had an eight-day spring. However, I found that the click kept giving away, and I began to suspect that either it needed a smaller 8-day spring or it was a 30-hour movement that a previous owner had tried to make an eight day. In any event, I let it go to a fellow who adopts lost causes.
I have Burt's articles in the little booklet that was later published by Great Lakes Chapter # 6. They are an interesting read but the classifications he developed are a bit thick to wade through. Still, a very useful series.
I agree that the classification scheme is rather "dense". True of most of what I call the "taxonomy" articles, including the wood works ones.
I see this thread has been dry for a while, so here's a contribution. I recently picked up this modest little cottage clock. It is unmarked except for the movement, which is signed “Ansonia Clock Co., Ansonia, Conn. U.S.A.” The case itself is unprepossessing and has some rather crude looking parts, particularly the door latch and the door hinge (at top). They appear to be original. Although not obvious from my picture, the top right slant of the door is darker than the rest. Perhaps replaced veneer. The clock is just under 10” tall at the peak of the door. Otherwise, the slant-top case, at the peak, is 9 ¼” tall. It is 6 7/8” wide at the base, its widest point.
The 30-hour round movement is working fairly well - so far - though it could do with a cleaning, etc. This is the second clock I’ve owned that contained this Ansonia movement. The first, a round top cabinet cottage clock, was previously posted here, where folks stumbled all over themselves to comment. Tran’s Ansonia book contains a picture of this movement that came from a small steeple (p. 440, fig. 1737). Since the movement in my clock mentions the factory location in Ansonia, CT, I date the clock to “ca. 1880.” The Ansonia factory was closed around 1883, though, of course, already completed movements would have been kept until used up. Neither this clock nor the round top cabinet cottage appears in Tran. Perhaps they were manufactured shortly after the Ansonia Brass and Copper Company was reorganized into the (second) Ansonia Clock Company.
Tran’s 2d ed. Of his book on Welch clocks shows a very similar moved marked “E.N. Welch M’f’g. Co.” The obvious difference that hits the eye is the escape wheel. The Welch movement has a solid EW (see p. 458, fig. 1440). A. Lee Smith discusses these round movements on page 724 of his article in the Dec. 1998 NAWCC Bulletin, “Cottage Timepieces and their Movements.” He mentions that the movement with the solid EW was used by the E.N. Mfg. Co., Welch, Spring & Co., and Jerome & Co. He also states that similar movements were used by Ansonia (4-spoke EW); H. J. Davis [sic-- he means Davies] (also 4 -spoke EW); in a case with an E&A Ingraham label (5-spoke EW); and the Canadian “Stinger” timepiece (6 spokes). I was unable to find anything about the Canadian “Stinger.”
As an additional comment, Smith’s article shows pictures of similar 8-day movements found in an Atkins cottage clock and a Welch, Spring & Co. cottage clock (p. 732).
Let me start by complimenting your impeccable taste in clocks :cyclops:
Mine is also unmarked except for the stamped round plate skeletonized movement.
The inside of the case of mine has a sort of ruddy brown almost sandy feeling finish, like they were trying to imitate flocked paper.
Slightly different base.
It has the pendulum it came with. Not sure which is correct.
Note, however, in both, the pendulum is off center!
Well, dog my cats! The long lost (fraternal) twin. I like the finish on yours. Mine has had a hard life and did not age gracefully. I agree about the sandy feeling finish inside the case. I though it might have been flocking that had worn off, but now I'm not sure. I prefer your pendulum; must see if I have a spare of the right length.
what a great thread.. ty for reserecting.
I have one of these 8 day minis, but it has no marking and i have never taken the face off to look at the movement.. its 11x7 and runs like a charm and alarm works fine.. pretty decent shape with no BIG problems. even still has 95% of the paint on the glass.
I looked at all the pix in this thread and mine has the winding holes. "akilter" of each other. one just past 4oclock and the other just past 10.
I am not computer literate to do pix.
extremely similar to the clock with no hands in post 40 even down to the green paint on the glass. but different positioning of the winding holes
Welcome sundance. We'd like to see the clock and help you ID it, if possible. If you can take some pictures, this thread will give you some help in posting them.
This is an unmarked alarm cottage with original brass springs it has two labels ,one is how to operate the alarm and the other is the retailer I think ,j.j. Beals co.it is similar to some of S.B. terry clocks and also New England but it has a round plate movement.
Oooo...dat very nice!!
Any chance of getting a peak at the movement??
Yes,when I get a chance to take the dial off at some point,the was a great article in the nawcc bulletin on this type of more nonstandard cottage clocks some years ago,as I remember there was one cottage clock in there that had a similar round movement ...see if you can find it in your library RM,if yo can not locate it ,I will locate it..
My usual go to and starting point reference for these cottage clock movements is Lee Davis' wonderful Bulletin article on cottage clock movements. Here's the link: http://www.nawcc.org/images/stories/1990/articles/1998/317/317_709a.pdf
Round plate cottage movements are shown therein.
Rm I tried to access your link but I have not been a nawcc member for some years.the article I was referring to was by Lee smith in the December of 1998 nawcc bulletin
Yes. Lee Smith's article.
C'mon. Join the NAWCC.
Another small cottage I adopted, 10" high, 8" long at the base. The labels shows it as the Rose Cottage by Jerome & Cottage (New Haven). Tran's NH book shows a Rose Gilt from the 1878 catalogue. That one came as either a Square Top or Octagon Top. I suspect that mine is simply the Rose Gilt under a slightly different name, possibly a bit later than 1878. The catalogue picture of the Rose Gilt shows a square-top timepiece with alarm and lists it as 9 1/2 inches high. The extra half inch on mine may be due to the octagon top, I suppose.
I ran across this little (11 3/16" high) timepiece the other day and snapped it up. The movement appears in Lee Smith's article 'Cottage Timepieces and their Movements" (Bulletin, Dec. 1998; p. 723, fig. 44). There Smith states that it came from a Union Clock Company timepiece (the German company). Outside of Hans-Heinrich Schmid's article on the UCC in his Lexikon der Deutschen Uhrenindustrie, the best summary about the company would seem to be this earlier thread. I am not sure who actually might have made the movement; I am under the perhaps incorrect impression that UCC were makers of cases rather than movements. Perhaps someone can enlighten me. I am working on the assumption that this is indeed a UCC product.
I also wasn't able to find anything about William A. Grove, whose label appears on the inside backboard. No other label or identifying markings on the case.
Steven, I have never seen this interesting cottage movement before and I must say, several features don't have a German look to me.
Further: We know several movements of Union clock Furtwangen and several details are the same on all UCC-movements, but these details I can't find on your movement, too.
So I doubt, your movement is German and also I doubt it was made by Union Clock Furtwangen. But if you want, I can give you pics of all UCC-movements I know. (about 6-8)
Thanks, Albra. I appreciate your reply and would like to see your UCC movement pictures. If you wish to e-mail them to me, that would be fine. I honestly do not know what lies behind Lee Smith's statement. His article does not contain a picture of the case from which the movement came. I can only assume that there may have been markings on the case or a label that led to the identification as UCC. He shows only the front of the movement, but it is definitely the same one, including the alarm détente and the eigenartige escape wheel bridge.
Let me add that Smith specifically states that "the escape wheel bridge identifies the movement as being from the Union Clock Co. (also German, not to be confused with the Union Mfg., Co. of Bristol, Connecticut)."
Steven, I mailed you pics of all UCC-movements I know and you will see, the escape wheel bridge is completely different.
Thanks, albra. I received the e-mail with pictures. BTW, I am not saying the Smith is necessarily right, simply stating what he says. How nice it would be to know the basis for his statement.
May bee Lee Smith confused Union Clock Co, Furtwangen with the Union Mfg., Co. of Bristol? But IÂ´m not familar with movements of Union MfG Co. of Bristol.
And as you know: The hunt for new insights is very interesting!
To continue this exchange, while looking for something else, I stumbled across this earlier thread. The movement shown in the first post is the same as shown in my post above (# 127). Note that it is found in a clock bearing a Jerome & Co. label. Looking through Tran's New Haven book, I find what I believe is the same movement in a clock with a New Haven label (p. 301, fig 1190). See below. The peculiar shape of the EW bridge seems to be there in the picture in Tran, although the foot of the EW bridge is hidden behind the alarm disc. So, New Haven, it seems. I had actually forgotten about that particular movement, possibly because it is not so commonly found as other NH timepiece movements, some of which can be seen in this thread. But that does not explain why Lee Smith ascribed it to the Union Clock Co. Perhaps NH sold these movement to UCC?
Saw this thread and thought I would share my small cottage clock collection
Steven, I congratulate you on the results of your research.
In order to decide whether New Haven comes in question as a supplier of this movement to UCC, it is crucial when your movement has been made. Can we answer this question?
albra: I cannot answer the question "when" with any certainty. I am tempted to place it in the 1870's to early 1880's, but that is as much a guess as anything else. Whatever the answer, I find the shape of the escape wheel bridge unlike those on the other New Haven movements I am familiar with. But I may be making too much of that.
Recently, Dave T posted a nice example of an Ansonia cottage time piece with a round plate movement.
See this thread: https://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?126900-Identify-Ansonia-Clock-Co-small-open-frame-time-only-movement
Subsequent reference was made to 2 clocks posted previously on this current thread with the same movement. It was also noted that other makers used round plate time only and time and alarm movements.
First, I would like to post another example of an Ansonia miniature cottage time piece (calling it that for want of a better name) with the same movement.
It's about the most cheaply made clock I've seen!
The front is walnut decorated with what I suppose you would call "Eastlake" style carving. The entire front of the clock opens to access the pendulum. The back part that contains the movement, dial, etc is pine.
Here's the movement:
In the ensuing discussion of Dave T's clock, it was also noted that Atkins made round plate movements. In fact, Atkins seems to have been fond of round plated movements! He made a time only version similar to the Ansonia. There are 30 hour and 8 day versions. The former also was made as an alarm timepiece. Here's an example of a 30 hour timepiece in what some might call a "cigar box" case. I usually reserve that term for clocks without a top and bottom molding which this one has:
Here's the movement and label:
Much more about these clocks can be found in Gregory and King's "The Clocks of Irenus Atkins", a worthwhile addition to any horological library.
Finally, and also as mentioned previously in the discussion of Dave T's clock, Welch, Spring and Co as well as EN Welch produced a round plate time only movement. Again, there were 8 day and 30 hour versions. Previously posted on the MB was this timepiece with a Masonic carved case front by Bellamy and Titicomb :
Yes, not really a miniature cottage but it's posted here as it has the Welch round plate time only movement:
For more about this clock, see this thread: https://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?103802-More-Americana-from-John-Haley-Bellamy
For a nice overall discussion of these and other cottage clock movements, see this Bulletin article by A. Lee Smith: http://www.nawcc.org/images/stories/1990/articles/1998/317/317_709a.pdf
It's a reference I return to over and over again. There have been some subsequent updates made to it as well.
I was just taking a few minute break and rummaging around the MB.
I wasn't particularly interested in the dating of clocks today, so I did some random searches to kill a bit of time.
I came across this rather worthwhile old thread https://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?74545-Post-your-HENRY-J-Davies-clock&highlight=forestville+hardware
What caught my eye was Jeremy Woodruff's posting about his milk glass front wall timepiece, the "Young America". You will have to scroll down to it. Note the pix of the round plate skeletonized plate movement and compare them to the ones in timepieces that were recently posted on the MB. That one and another example that was linked to is marked "H.J. Davies".
I also thought the discussion of the history reflected by the clocks name and it's possible connection to a 19th Century political movement were interesting too.
Well, back to work.
Welch steeple clock auction buy
Hi brought this clock for a number of reason, but mainly I love the bird, the label on the back board is readable but no date, I'm sure the clock is pre 1900, thinking about 1880, no markings on the movement, could this clock be dated for me please.
Re: Welch steeple clock auction buy
Tran Duy Ly's 2013 Welch book shows an example of what appears to be the same movement on page 458. The movement came out of a model called "Round Top No. 2" and is dated ca.1869. It is signed at about the 5 o'clock position on the front plate just to the right of the winding arbor. These movements could certainly have been used in steeple clocks as well. I found examples of Welch steeple clocks in the same book with winding arbors at 6 o'clock; however, no movements are shown. There are two examples of the 14 1/2" tall "Small Gothic". One is dated 1872 and the other is dated 1878. A 16" tall "Small Sharp Gothic" is dated 1880. David, Owen.or
Re: Welch steeple clock auction buy
Thank you David, looked closely but movement unsigned, my clock stands at 14 1/2 inches, so would appear to be made between 1872 and 1878 from your information, thank you very much for having a look.
Re: Welch steeple clock auction buy
These little round 30-hour movements seem to have been popular. Look at posts 115, 116, and 137, for example, of this thread on mini-cottage clocks.
Re: Welch steeple clock auction buy
Thanks Steven had a read of those pages, will you put mine into that separate bit?
I have merged your thread with the mini-cottage clock thread. If that is not what you want, it is reversible.
Re: Welch steeple clock auction buy
That is fine,I will know where to find it thanks.
Some of my cottage clocks not all minis.
Thanks to sylvester12 for reviving this nice thread with some nice examples from his collection.
For the sake of some coordination, I'm posting links to this recent thread about a pair of mini cottages: The most cheaply made clocks...
Here's some of pix of the subject clocks:
They have lithographed paper dials applied to thin wood panels. They are attributed to S.C. Spring based upon the escapement bridge. There are links in that thread to Lee Smith's excellent Bulletin article about movements in cottage clocks.
Thanks RM I'm working on it but I've seen some of yours their very nice. I saw some nice minis on an auction site but with exchange rate etc. I'll be buried in them.
The London Ontario Chapter of the National Association of Watch and Clock Collectors is having an Antique Clock and collectibles sale at Mount Brydges Legion 33 Veterans Ave., Mount Brydges, on June 3 so maybe I'll see some nice cottage clocks there or something else I like.
Good luck @ the auction!
Hmm, "most cheaply made." I always associate that with this clock, a small, almost flimsy round-top cottage clock.
I can't say who made it. I wondered originally whether it might be German. The remnants of the label are tantalizing but provide no real clue.
So, what does it say? New Cottage Time? New Cottage Home? Neither satisfies.
The movement is also no help and is itself not especially well made. Note the peculiar escape wheel bridge.
Lee Smith's often mentioned article on Cottage Timepieces and their movements (see the link in post # 137 above) shows two variations of this movement. The first is Figure 19 on page 717. Smith simply states that it "is found in an unidentified timepiece with an unsupported cardboard dial." The second is Figure 37 on page 721. It is described as by an unknown maker and is compared to the movement in Figure 19 because it has the same escape wheel bridge. The movement in Figure 37 is a time and ("inboard") alarm movement. The alarm disc is American in style, which, if original, blows my German theory. As perhaps does the cardboard dial mentioned in Smith's first example (fig. 19), again if original.