Message Board rules

Perhaps the key to clarifying this is to understand the difference between Publishing copyright and ownership rights.

Does this makes sense to folks?

If a person uses the NAWCC MB as a medium to facilitate publication of info, that version is copyright protected. In other words, no one (even the poster) can transfer the verbatim content to another site, venue or medium.

That said, the ownership of the content is still the property of the owner or poster of the content.

As an example, I could post my pictures of all of the 16S Waltham balance staffs on the NAWCC MB. I could not then transfer all of that particular thread to a CD format and sell it at Marts. I could, however, create a CD of all of my pictures (since I own them) if it wasn't simply a lift (save as html) of the MB content.

To further expand the example. Some day, the NAWCC might want to collect and sell an archive of their MB at a National Convention. A Best of the NAWCC MB... Horoligical Hits... whatever the title, if it is a format that is directly a publishing duplicate of the original NAWCC MB, aren't they within their rights to do so?

Is this the type of copyright and ownership strategy that can work? I'd hate to see all of us get in a huge squabble because we can't agree on what seems like common sense. i.e. Posters can share info without fear of loosing ownership, and the NAWCC can create a MB that is protected from someone thieving and profiting from their investment.

 

IF this is indeed what this means, this certainly isn't going to work for several posters.

Tom, who wrote these things and where are they to be found?

Regards,
Doug

 

These new rules do not apply to this current board, right? I know I never knowingly gave consent to this organization to hold the copyrights to my images nor content of postings.

Will there be a place to "opt out" of migrating current posts where copyright laws are not infringed, to the new board where these copyrights are stripped?

Please do not transfer my postings to the new board as I do not want to lose my rights to my property.

 

If you ask me, this is a fairly meaningles rule.

If Tom copies some of his work from awco.org into a thread on the MB, he would still be free to do the same thing again on Web-Horology.

As far as that goes, if I am going to make a post to the MB that I may want to replicate elsewhere, I could first enter it into a document on my PC and then paste that to the MB, and from that point on be able to paste from my original anywhere I like.

 

I think in most cases, if not all, they were copied and protected elsewhere.

 

Please address:

 

Suppose the NAWCC message board administration decides to lock and delete a thread. Does their copyright preclude others from reposting the thread elsewhere?

 

I think the copyright notice is badly written.

Doing a Google search with an argument of "copyright rules message board" will give you many examples of what others are using. I haven't found any as arcane as ours.

I like the way this site has their copyright and use rules worded. In the "How we Manage & Use Posts" section, their non-exclusive, royalty free...etc., use by them makes a lot more sense.

Virgin Island Moving Center Message Board.

Ralph

 

As a professional photographer, I value the copyrights to my images. I have posted hundreds of images here. They are all hosted elsewhere, but this rule and this discussion scares the heck out of me. I have gladly granted permission for the NAWCC to use my images in their publications many times over the years. However, I would urge the NAWCC to be very careful of publishing or repurposing any of my images without my expressed written permission, whether I have posted/hosted them here or somewhere else.

There is a lot of recent precedent case law regarding copyright of publicly posted images. I would urge the NAWCC look into changing this policy. I will not publish any more images on this site until this rule is clarified or changed.

 

There is no question in my mind that the "copyright rules" section needs to be clarified further.

1. It is my impression that the vat majority of contributors to this Message Board (or any other MB for that matter) would agree that the sole copyright to any THREAD on a message board should be owned by the operator of the message board.

2. I also believe that few of us would objects if the operator of a message board chooses to republish a thread (or part of a thread) in other form or other media themselves (like e.g. a best of the MB column in the Bulletin or as a compilation on a CD) the MB operator should have the right to do so.

3. I have however some doubt that the overwhellming majority of us would be equally enthusiastic if NAWCC were to "sell" (or license their right to use these threadts to a third party.

4. An even larger portion of us would probably object if NAWCC were to use a single individual contribution (be it verbal or image) taken out of its thread and publish it in a NAWCC publication without clearance of the author.

5. A yet larger opposition would object to NAWCC selling to third parties the right to use individual contributions.

6. Finally there is little doubt in my mind that the majority of contributors would find a rule that (at least in theory) would prohibit the author from reusing his individual contribution to a thread in another non-NAWCC-MB context. Besides beeing morally/ethically questionable such a exclusive definition of copyright for the benefit of NAWCC is not practical, feasable and enforcable. It clearly makes little sense for a Bulletin borad.

I hope Tom and his team will let the experts come up with a better wording.

It the past NAWCC was not careful enough to secure copyrights to materials it published. For many years the copyright for published Bulletin articles remained with the authors, making it even questionable if NAWCC had the right to republish these articles on its website or in CD editions of past Bulletin volumes.

Clearly NAWCC must secure the right to reuse the content of the MB threads into the future, also in forms not forseen today.

On the other hand a solution should be found that allows the inddividual authors to reuse their individual contributions in different context. In other words, probably both author and NAWCC should have non-exclusive rights to reuse the individual contributions.

Past images are not a problem, they were never "ON" this MB, but the future MB will be different. I would assume that many of the images (and some of the texts) that will be posted have been used by their authors elsewhere before (even on "competing" MBs -) ) to make ure underline a particular point. To quietly assume that the author wants to "give up" any right to reuse his work elsewhere if he posts it here makes no sense.

Just my opinion. But we should try to get a reasonable resolution to this conflict befor the migration to the new board.

 

Speaking of experts, take it from the picture hosting web site flickr.com, which allows users to "opt in" to one of 6 levels of copyright, as follows:

Creative Commons Licenses

The following are the six current license choices available from our choose a license application ... shown by name along the license characteristics that accompany them.

Name Characteristics
Attribution
Attribution-NoDerivs
Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivs
Attribution-NonCommercial
Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike
Attribution-ShareAlike

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The one big caveat is for Creative Commons licenses that contain the ShareAlike license element (ie. Attribution-ShareAlike, Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike). These licenses require derivative works (ie. the result of two combined works) to be licensed under the same license elements. So, you cannot, for example, combine an Attribution-ShareAlike license with an Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike. If you are combining a work licensed under a ShareAlike license condition, you need to make sure that you are happy and able to license the resulting work under the same license conditions as the original work.

more at
http://wiki.creativecommons.org/FAQ

 

"Once again, I did not write these rules. However, the current statement would not inhibit any of my contributions to the Message Board. I believe it fully protects my authorship of any work I share here."

Tom, the new rules were posted along with your name. Are you now speaking as just another NAWCC member, or on behalf of those who wrote the rules?

If you deny responsibility for them -- quite understandably <g> -- it would seem both appropriate and helpful for those who do have responsibility to step forward and defend them. Fortunat has also now offered serious concerns, as have several other individuals who are hardly minions of lunar variation.

Similarly, that the rules as stated would not inhibit *your* contributions is *your* choice -- which is the point, if in reverse.

What the rules say -- stated so that simple folk can understand them in one mental breath -- is essentially "we can publish or transfer or otherwise use your contributions at anytime anywhere in any arrangement or form without your having a say." The like it or leave it is not yet understood.

You have some serious supporters of the MB (not to mention the NAWCC) who almost immediately objected to the present form of the new rules and who have personal and professional experience with copyright concerns.

It's hardly "with the possible exception of...." one errant or confused or disaffected voice.

Regards,
Doug

 

Thank you Dave for sharing that text. As usual in anything dealing with intellectual property the devil is in the details.

Tom,
I don't think the issue is quite a simple as you see it. Content and expression of course are not allways as distinct from each other as you assume. Obviously the "two sentence" contribution to a rambling ongoing thread is not the issue.

But the message board has other kind of contributions. One of my more frequent oens is detailed, formal reviews of new horological books. They may be several typed pages in length and are (hopefully) reasonably carefully crafted.

Typically I submit these at the same time to the editor of the NAWCC bulletin. If Diana choses not to run them in the Bulletin, I may submitt them to other horological periodicals or websites as well, which sometimes means that I have to (or ask them to) translate them into a foreign language.

Under the strictest possible reading of your MB rules as they are stated now, the moment I post something on the new message board, I grant an EXCLUSIVE copyright to NAWCC, which means I can not use that material anyplace else. I can restate my thoughts in other words, but even making a foreign translation translation of my previously posted text available soemwhere else would be a no-no.

Or an other example; Board Member X ansers a query on the board "how does one set up the strike train of model ABC of XYZ clock company?".

A few months later a similar inquiry pots up on a other MB or Newsgroup. Should that member be forbidden to cut and paste again from his own "misc hor facts archives" just because he
has has once before done so for the NAWCC MB? Or do you want him/her to go through the charade of changeing a few words just to create a seemingly "new expression" of his previous thoughts or insights?

I am convinced that this was NOT the INTENT of the people who wrote the rules.

Yes, NAWCC must of course own a copyright to the content of the threads of the message board, but I don't think that an EXCLUSIVE copyright is practical. The author must retain the right to use the material again, verbatim if he so desires, in a different content.

Admittedly for the majority of the MB users this is a non issue, but I believe that for the minority who do publish their work regularly (be it in print or on-line), the rules as stated would have a counterproductive effect and diminish the quality and usefullness of the MB.

Fortunat

 

I'd just add that the issue of it being difficult sometimes to secure permission from an individual to (re)publish material (especially as we have e-vagrants and the like) is a false issue.

It would be extremely easy to give each individual when registering the choice of whether permission must be sought or not (which could be changed later, but of course).

For example:

___ Do you agree that the NAWCC may publish (etc.) any of your contributions without first seeking your permission?

___ Or only with your specific permission?

If you choose the latter, please give an email address (tel., postal, or whatever) where you may be reached.

And, as in the real-world, if permission is not given then that is the way it is. If the individual's contribution isn't worth asking for his permission then you lose nothing in any case.

And if few would choose the second option, then few would.

 

"Failure to credit is plagiarism."

Tom, the above is important to any researcher who dares to share his or her findings here.

Conversely, I would think that anyone who shares info found on these sites would credit the person who found this stuff. (as Kent Singer does)

And Tom, I think we all are very grateful for the work that is being done with the NAWCC board but you keep saying that this is "not your rule".

you are our point man here. We need your leadership. This rule is written wrongly and could cause trouble in the future I would think.

Surely the committee that came up with the wording on this rule would listen to rational thoughts about it and consider modifying it.

 

I would first like to start of with thanking Tom for taking the heat on this matter. I am the one that has been working on the new message board rules. I had hoped to continue my focus on getting the new message board up and running, but I feel I need to stop and give everyone and explanation about the copyright rule.

First let me explain why the new rule was considered. While visiting other message boards I noticed that some people where copying post from the NAWCC message board and re-posting them onto other message boards. The people where then criticizing the writing skills of the posts’ authors, their intelligence and just plain ripping the person and their post to shreds without even giving them a chance to respond. The other reason the rule was put into place was to stop people from copying posts and threads that had been removed or deleted from the NAWCC message board and reposting them onto other venues and continuing the bad behavior that caused the post to be removed from the NAWCC message board in the first place.

To the best of my knowledge the NAWCC has never stolen anyone’s intellectual property and we do not wish to do so now. The rule was not intended to imply that once you posted something on the NAWCC message board that we owned it and you could not use it somewhere else. We are actually trying to protect your information by not allowing what you share with the NAWCC message board and its’ members to be copied by someone other than you to another venue without your permission.

We will be hosting pictures soon and the pictures will be stored in their own file folder. If someone got mad at the NAWCC and decided they no longer wanted to have any of their information displayed on the message board and wanted all of their pictures deleted it would be a daunting task to cleanse all of their material from the message board. If we own what is posted on the message board this would not be a problem.

I will take a look at clearing up some of the misunderstandings about the rule, however the rule will be kept simple and it will not be pages long. I want to thank Ralph for his link to the Virgin Island Moving Center Message Board. This is a very good copyright notice and I have written to them and ask permission to use some of the information from it.

 

Instead of
----------------------------------------
Copyright Notice
All our Trade Marks, Titles, Logos, Names and Descriptions of Categories and Forums including but not limited to "NAWCC Message Board" are the property of NAWCC Inc. and World-Wide Ownership Rights are hereby asserted and protected. All Intellectual Property and Images appearing on the NAWCC Message Board in any form or format are Ownership and Copyright Protected World-Wide.
-------------------------------------------


I would suggest as a minimum concession/clarification:
------------------------------------------
Copyright Notice

All our Trade Marks, Titles, Logos, Names and Descriptions of Categories and Forums including but not limited to "NAWCC Message Board" are the property of NAWCC Inc. and World-Wide Ownership Rights are hereby asserted and protected. All Intellectual Property and Images appearing on the NAWCC Message Board in any form or format are Ownership and Copyright Protected World-Wide.

No post or thread may be copied and placed on any other website without express permission of the administrator of the NAWCC message board.

These rules shall not limit the copyright of the authors of individual postings to reuse their postings (but not the threads containing them) in any way they desire.
---------------------------------------------
A more wider ranging solution might also include the clause:

NAWCC Inc. agrees
1.to use the content of the Messageboard threads only for educational purposes and
2.to not use individual postings outside of the content of the thead without the expressed specific permission of the author, and
3.to not to sell or license the content of the threads of this message board to third parties.
.


I hope this is helpfull. I am not hung up on any specific wording but feel that authors need some protection that their contributions are not used for a purpose other than they were intended.

Fortunat

 

Fortunat,


excellent.

Jeff Hamilton,

thanks for clearing that up.

You guys are doing terrific work at a rather tough job.

Thanks for considering the memberships wishes and considering the "possiblity" of a slight revision.

This gives us all hope and proves even more why we have the right men for the job.

 

I have been following these threads with some interest. There apppears to be differing opinions that have brought to light some probably unintended consequences that are much better resolved before the new rules go into effect.
IMHO both the rights of NAWCC and the rights of contributors to these boards need to be respected. Fortunat's suggestions to modify the proposed rule to allow joint ownership (with some restrictions as to future use and sale by NAWCC) should go a long way to reduce the concern that research or technical opinions published by an individual will be taken out of his or her control just by its publication here. This might have a chilling effect on some of the fine contributions that have, and will be made in the future, on this board. It will also prevent someone from lifting an entire thread (except for those parts that he or she had authored) for use in another venue.

 

Hi Tom,

IMHO, it's only required to go deep into the subject IF you care about it. For example, flickr.com gives everyone a default copyright level, and then - only if you care - you can go in and change it to one of the other five levels for which they provide a great deal of description. So, you read all that is there ONLY IF you care about such things and wish to choose a personal level of control of copyright that differs from the default they assign to all new members.

Note that I've only been a member on flickr.com for three days, but I'm very impressed with their set up. I'm sure there are many other good models to borrow from. Their example seems to be a model that modern Internet sharing sites are adopting. Note that the description from their site does not come from flickr.com, but from wiki (a widespread and wildly successful information sharing model unto itself). That is - flickr.com didn't make this stuff up but rather they borrowed from what was developed by experts in the public domain (wiki) sharing their views and proposing how best to share and retain their individual and site copyright, while at the same time promoting sharing and creativity to the greatest extent.

So with all that is readily available from very successful operations on the Internet, how in the world did our apparently unpopular policy come about?

Come on now, this does not need to be so difficult!

 

Going back to Tom's explanation of the copyright situation:

Although I understand the reasons for the NAWCC to wish to copyright the material posted on its message boards, I have a problem ceding the rights to my material, as posted on the NAWCC message board, to the NAWCC. Should I develop an explanation of a topic for use on the NAWCC message board, I would not wish to have to re-work it in order to use it elsewhere. Similarly, should I create a picture and post it (for whatever reason) on the NAWCC message board, I would not want to have to re-make the picture to use it elsewhere.

Thus I am attracted to Fortunat's suggested clarifications as posted above, allowing for the author/contributer to reuse the material, as posted, as he/she may see fit. I hope that the rules can be changed to allow for the sharing of rights that this enables.

 

I too would hope to see this matter addressed in a way that will satisfy some of the concerns that have been expressed here about the new rules.

I would hate to see this new coming message board start off as anything other than a place where contributors feel welcome and appreciated.

Fred

 

Fred,

Well said.

As the big boss said on another thread, he is considering modifying the rule.

Lets give them some breathing room.

This board is coming back to life with the current leadership.

 

If everyone would just give us a few days we are working on a revision to the copyright rule. When we feel we have something tangible to present I will post it here. We are listening and have heard your concerns.

 

another interesting discussion

old ref::http://nawcc-mb.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/574604458...251061092#4251061092

 

Here is the location of the New Proposed Copyright rule.
old ref:roposed Copyright Rule.

Please keep all comments in the new thread.