Mercer Chronometer?

Discussion in 'Chronometers' started by Omexa, Nov 23, 2016.

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  1. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

    Feb 28, 2010
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    Hi, is it possible to date a (I think a Mercer Chronometer) Serial Number: 14379? It has a Swedish Companies name on the Dial, "C L Malmsjo & Co, Goteborg". No photos at the moment. I think that I posted this in the wrong place? Regards Ray
     
  2. JTD

    JTD Registered User
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    C L Malmsjö & Co. of Göteborg (Sweden) was a prestigious dealer in watches, clocks and scientific instruments in the mid 19th century until the early 20th.

    As far as I can tell, they did not manufacture themselves, but I am not certain of that.

    Doesn't help you with the date but just a little background information.

    JTD
     
  3. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

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    Thanks JTD. Regards Ray
     
  4. itspcb

    itspcb Registered User
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    Mercer, as you say, about 1933/34, according to Tony Mercer's 'Chronometer Makers of the World'
    Peter
     
  5. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

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    Hi, I now have some photos from seller. I received from Mercer Chronometers UK a reply that they have not a record of the serial number, but they sold in 1936 2 Chronometers with serial numbers that are very close to the Serial Number: 14379 on this Chronometer to C L Malmsjö & Co. of Göteborg (Sweden). It is just a glitch in their records. I have some restoration work to do on the Dial, the movement looks to be in pretty good condition. What sort of escapement would this Chronometer have? Regards Ray 1.jpg 1a.jpg 2.jpg 3.jpg 5.jpg
     
  6. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Ray,

    It would be basically an Earnshaw spring detent, but there may be some auxiliaries on the balance. Great care needed when dismantling, that detent and the associated jewels are very fragile.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  7. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

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    Thanks Graham.
     
  8. Ralph

    Ralph Registered User
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    As Graham said, great care... mostly meaning all power must be removed before disassembly, including the maintaining power, which is often over looked.

    Ralph
     
  9. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

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    Hi, I got a photo of the Balance. Regards Ray $_12.JPG
     
  10. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Ray,

    This does appear to be John Poole's Auxiliary, which limits the amount of outward movement of the rim and reduces the error at lower temperatures. Although it's generally known as John Poole's, (from 1845), it was used earlier by Pennington and earlier still in a very similar form by John LeRoux.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  11. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

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    #11 Omexa, Nov 27, 2016
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2016
    Hi Graham, I presume the water around Sweden would be pretty cold so it would be pretty nippy on board the Ship. I found this in a post on the NAWCC forum. "In an article published in CLOCKS July 1984, Vaudrey Mercer investigates the errors that besets the makers of early chronometers and the diverse methods they use to overcome them. In the article John Poole's chronometer balance with auxiliary compensation was discussed. His balance prevents the rim from moving outwards to its fullest extent and hence it is suitable for exposure to extreme cold. His chronometers were much in use in the vessels sent to find the North West passage. This type of balance halves the middle temperature error and greatly reduces the error in low temperature.

    Mun C W". Regards Ray
     
  12. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Ray,

    Yes, that's right. It's covered in much more detail in Gould's book.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  13. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

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    #13 Omexa, Nov 27, 2016
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2016
    Hi Graham, from not much interest in Chronometers and mainly studying Verge Fusees, I now find the subject very interesting, it is unfortunate that Mercer have lost-misplaced the records of this particular Chronometer but they did find 2 more sold to C L Malmsjö & Co. of Göteborg in 1936 with similar Serial Numbers. I will try to find out how the seller acquired this Chronometer living in a place that is far away from the nearest City, Surakata-Solo (Surakarta is a city in Central Java) and nowhere near the Sea. It would be very interesting to find out which Ships it was on in the 80 years since it was made? I just found Madura island is a Ship Breaking area. Regards Ray
     
  14. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

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    #14 Omexa, Nov 28, 2016
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2016
    Hi Graham, I am in a good mood today, I went to the Doctor yesterday for the first time in 5 months and as I walked in the door he said "Your looking well" and I was; Blood Pressure 130 over 80, not bad at 75 going on 76. (I had a few beers that day, it is normally 127 over 72) Now I have been looking at Chronometers and they all seem to look very alike; lots of different Brands look to be based on Mercer? Now the questions: How do you tell if it (my Chronometer) is 2 or 8 Day? (I just worked it out from the Wind indicator; 2 Day) Another thing is that my Chronometer has "Import" on the Dial which I have not seen on any other Chronometer. Maybe it is a Swedish Regulation that Imported Goods have to be marked as such. Regards Ray 1.jpg
     
  15. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Ray,

    Glad to hear you've been passed fit!

    I think it's not so much that everyone copied Mercer, but more that they were all using a design that had been well proven over time since the days of Earnshaw and Arnold. As you'll have seen in Gould, there were some pretty amazing and complex balance designs invented in an attempt to correct middle temperature error. A two day instrument was intended to be wound every day, (this one has "Wind" at 24 hrs), with some spare in case anyone forgot; I think most navigation chronometers were like this.

    If that dial is engraved, as it seems to be, it should clean up pretty well.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  16. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

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    #16 Omexa, Nov 29, 2016
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2016
    Hi, Skutt50 lives in Gothenburg and very kindly did a lot of research for me about C L Malmsjo & Co, Goteborg. I have his permission to Post it on the Forum. Re: C L Malmsjö & Co. of Göteborg (Sweden)
    "Hi Omexa,

    Malmsjö is a well known watchmaker here in Gothenburg. I have not been there myself but the shop seems still to be active. Here is the current address etc: (I did not find a home page but I was referenced to a group of watchmakers called "Stjärnurmakarna". It appears that Malmsjö have left the group because they are no longer mentioned on the Stjärnurmakarna home page!)

    Malmsjö Ur AB
    Götgatan 5
    41 05 Götrborg
    Tel: 031-158828
    Fax 031-151740

    I have serviced several wall clocks with his label on. (Label with date of sales and warranty.)

    Malmsjö has been around "for ever"! I have found some traces back to the 19 century:
    Picture of one of the owners bottom left: http://runeberg.org/gbgpg/stad/0416.html
    Old ad: http://runeberg.org/illuvagvis/0075.html

    Carl Ludvig Malmsjö had 5 employees in 1845 and 1846. In 1846 he made an astronomical pendelum watch at the cost of 400 SEK (which is about 45USD) which of course was a lot more back then.

    Carl Ludvig Malmsjö was born 19 may 1813 and died 10 may 1891.
    There were four brothers and they were born in Röstlånga in Skåne provins in southern Sweden.

    His brother Carl Gustav Malmsjö was a piano maker and there Malmsjö Musick where my parents bought a piano when I was small. (I still have it) (I also bought music sheets there when I was young....)
    One brother was binding books. (I don't know this profession in English but he made the covers of books.

    Another note I found was about his workshop. It started in 1841 at an address Södra Hamngatan 29 and was located there for more than 100 years.

    He started with production of "box clocks" to compete with American made import, but it allegedly did not go that well.
    Here is a picture of one of these clocks: http://www.antikviteter.net/antikpra...tml?1269853185

    In 1860 he employed a Herman Henrik Hallgren who became a co owner in 1870 and there after the company was named "C.L. Malmsjö & Co". In 1879 Henrik took over the company.
    Picture of Henrik Hallgren: https://www.geni.com/people/Henrik-H...00009763627443

    The current location seems to be inside a shopping mall, not very far from where it all started back in 1841 but I don't think Google Street view will work inside! I have no plans to go down there. (It is in the center of the city and crowded with people, traffic jam and poor expensive parking....)

    I hope this gives you some insight to Malmsjö & Co. I did not find any picture of Malmsjö and several owners have run the business since it was founded but it seems to still exist.....

    Good luck with your clock.

    Best Regards/Skutt50" Regards Ray C L Malmsjo & Co.jpg
     
  17. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

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    Has anyone got a photo of an Escape Wheel for this Chronometer? The one in my one seems to be very worn. Regards Ray
     
  18. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Ray,

    Can you post a picture of it please? It should look like this, (from Wikipedia). There's another set of images here, and here.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  19. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

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    Hi Graham, here is the photo; I wonder if Mercer can supply another one? Regards Ray P1020478.JPG
     
  20. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Ray,

    At some stage the escapement has "run away", probably due to a broken locking stone; what state are the locking stone and the impulse roller in? I don't know if anyone can supply a NOS wheel, but I know a man who could make one, (at a price!).

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  21. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

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    Hi Graham, one Balance Pivot is Broken and the other is Bent; I can sort that out. That is probably when it "run away", "what state are the locking stone and the impulse roller in?". they seem to be OK. I have asked Mercer if they can supply an Escape Wheel. Regards Ray 20161213_070232.jpg
     
  22. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

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    Hi, Mercer do not have an Escape Wheel. Does anyone know the Diameter of a Mercer Escape Wheel? Regards Ray
     
  23. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
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    Have you looked at the Russian ones on eBay? I do not do repairs, but I would think that the distance from the escape wheel pivot line to the impulse stone and the resting position of the detent locking stone would give you an accurate measure of what you need in the escape wheel.
     
  24. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

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    Hi Tom, do you sit in a Striped Tent at Village Fairs and Shows and read minds? I was just looking at; Russian marine Chronometer (KIROVA, POLET) spare part.
    Gear wheel of a running wheel.
    Fleet wheel D- 10,85 mm
    Outside D- 13,4 mm
    number of teeth -15 st. I will measure my one to see the difference. The seller was less than honest with me and just described the Chronometer as not running. When I sell a movement I state the problems with it. I did not pay a lot for it. Are the Russian marine Chronometers a copy of Mercer? Regards Ray 2.jpg s-l1600.jpg 4.jpg s-l500.jpg
     
  25. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
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    I don't think so but escape wheels are all pretty similar. I think Kirova may be related to GUB.
     
  26. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    Hi Ray,

    I too am pleased you are fit and well. Thought you might like to look at your chronometer dial and notice the up and down dial, which tells you it will run for 56 hours.
    Below is a photograph of the eight day version.

    IMG_2101.jpg

    Keep fit,

    Regards,

    Allan.

    PS: May I take this chance to wish all members a very Merry Christmas and Happay New Year.
     
  27. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    Since writing the above, the thread moved a whole page. I noticed your question about the Russians copying a Mercer chronometer. Don´t go there Ray, you will have to spend years reading books on German chronometers. Quick answer the Germans first copied the English and were pleased to do so, till a little man with an odd tash said we will have a chronometer that is ALL GERMAN, firms like Wempe, and Adolf Langer solved the problem for him, then the war and at the end of it the Russians took all they could lay their greedy hands on including Langers factory back to good old Moscow. Oh and the Germans were not happy then-and they are not now. (So now you know why Russian chronometers are so good).

    Regards,

    Allan.
     
  28. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

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    Hi Allan, thank you for your advice; I am not sure if I have done the right thing but I just purchased a set of Hands for a Russian marine chronometer (KIROVA,POLET) spare part . I have no Hands for my Mercer so I thought that some Hands are better than none; the chance of getting Mercer Hands was nil. I only paid $62.00 Australian for them. I am sure that I can do any alterations to the Hands as needed. Regards Ray Hands 1.jpg Hands Chronometer.jpg
     
  29. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

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    Hi, I just got an answer about this Chronometer from Cdr Peter John Linstead-Smith OBE RN; He is always so helpful. Regards Ray[​IMG]
     

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