Mauthe Mystery

Discussion in 'Clock Repair' started by shutterbug, May 9, 2017.

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  1. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    I took some pics of this before disassembling it, but didn't notice this. This is on the strike side, looking up from the bottom of the movement (the strike and chime trains are reversed on this one). It appears to be a worm gear, but nothing is near it, and it appears to serve no purpose (but it must, right?). I don't have extra wheels or anything like that. Have any of you seen this? Have I got something wrong? The train works just fine. This is also the only chain driven movement that I've seen with pulley's for the weights. A former "repairman" did some serious damage on this thing, like bending the %&*@ out of the main wheel sprocket guards.
     
  2. dickstorer

    dickstorer Registered User

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    SB, could you post a pic of the weight/pulley set up?

    Could that worm be part of a stop winding mechanism?
     
  3. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    The movement has the normal type of stop works, so no, the gear is not for that.
     
  4. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    How about some more pictures of the general area.
    It may have been a part of a rate adjuster or maybe
    a tension adjuster for the strike hammers.
    The end with the pin was obviously for a tool that would be
    a tube with a notch at the end.
    Being a worm great, it was made to be driven form
    that end.
    How about the screws holding it, do they match
    other screws on the movement?
    Tinker Dwight
     
  5. kinsler33

    kinsler33 Registered User

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    It turns the little waterwheel while the music box is playing. Check the case to see if there are any jumping baby deer or dancing people.

    M Kinsler

    It alternates between "Edelweiss" and "The Happy Wanderer."
     
  6. glenhead

    glenhead Registered User
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    I expect it's part of the power steering mechanism.

    Glen
     
  7. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    Not a cuckoo or other music maker, Kinsler :) I'll post some additional pics today.
     
  8. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    #8 shutterbug, May 10, 2017
    Last edited: May 10, 2017
    Here are a couple more quick pictures from the bottom of the movement. You can see that they really compacted the time and chime trains into one small area, and the strike leaves quite a bit of room in the center of the movement. Maybe it was made for something else that this one doesn't have? It also has a very strange click system for the time and strike trains.
     
  9. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    See the notch in the strike chain wheel arbor.
    I'm thinking it was part of a night shut off..
    There would be a piece, like chops on a suspension spring
    adjuster, That would ride on the thread.
    It would have a spring loaded end that would engage the notch
    on the chain wheel arbor.
    There would be a crank on the side of the movement to engage
    or disengage the shut off.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  10. MartinM

    MartinM Registered User
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    Given the amount of effort put into an apparent problem with the winder, I think Tinker may be onto something.
    What if such a device were locked and someone decided to use the chain to force the clock to strike, couldn't get it to work and went after it with a pry bar or summach, finally destroying the shutoff mechanism which was mostly removed, after the fact.
     
  11. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    That could be it. Next, I'll take some pictures of the clicks in this thing. Easily the worst excuse of clicks I've ever encountered, INCLUDING Cuckoo's! I need some advise on fixing one that slips.
     
  12. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    #12 shutterbug, May 11, 2017
    Last edited: May 11, 2017
    OK, here's the problem click. Dumbest design ever, IMHO. The spring has a sharp end that catches on the brass base. It is allowed to slip one way, and grabs the other. This one needs to be tweaked a bit so it can grab more efficiently. I hope the pic's are clear enough for some advise.
     
  13. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    Is the spring end suppose to grab in that mangled brass teeth
    or is it suppose to bind on the center like the ones on the German
    time bombs?
    Tinker Dwight
     
  14. chimeclockfan

    chimeclockfan Registered User
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    Well here's a catalog photo of what is probably the same movement you're saddled with. They are fairly common and were used by a plethora of case makers in America and Germany.

    Check if the strike silence lever has any correlation to the lone worm gear. This toggles the chime and strike into warning so it remains completely silent. The other lever just bars off the chime hammers so the clock still strikes the hours (and albeit silently, activates each quarter hour).
     
  15. dAz57

    dAz57 Registered User

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    How snug is the spring over the brass tube, there should be no sharp edges on the spring, it shouldn't dig in, if the spring is a loose fit it will never work, the spring needs to be a close fit to the tube to the point you need to unwind it as you fit the spring on, as you wind the clock the spring expands to allow the tube to slip then tightens as the weight is applied.

    You need to make a new tube that fits the spring better or a new spring.
     
  16. MartinM

    MartinM Registered User
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    I'd try un-bending that last (Top in the last picture) loop to make it align with the others. The way it is now, it's interfering with the ability of the other loops of the spring to grasp the shaft.
    Spring clutches are pretty simple, they just need to be a nice consistent wind and slightly smaller than the shaft they are slipped over. The shaft needs to be clean and straight with no taper.
     
  17. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    The spring was very hard to remove, so I'm thinking it's snug enough. Can you be a bit more explicit in how the thing is supposed to work, dAz? The loop end apparently is supposed to have a threaded pin that holds it in place. There are two threaded holes where they would originally have fit. I made a couple (2.5mm threads) that seem to serve the purpose.
     
  18. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    If it is like the German time bomb, turning one way, the spring drags
    on the shaft and tightens with a little back turn.
    It isn't the end that digs in. One wonders if the spring was swapped with
    the wrong direction of turn.
    Each turn should be snug. Winding should loosen the spring.
    Which way does this arbor turn when winding?
    Tinker Dwight
     
  19. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    I'm not quite sure yet, Tinker. Right now it free wheels either way. I'll have to study it a bit more today and let you know.
     
  20. MartinM

    MartinM Registered User
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    it can't work correctly with that one deformed loop.
    Actually, it looks like both ends of the spring have a deformed loop.
    Here's a quick reference for how they are typically used
    http://www.tinyclutch.com/spring-clutches.htm
     
  21. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    Thanks, Martin. This one does not have a double hub though, which seems to be a requirement of the style you linked to.
     
  22. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    That does look like the movement, Justin, but with some differences. The left lever does not have an extension for an actuating wire. Nothing is in proximity to the worm gear that can utilize it in any way. The right lever will stop both the chime and strike sequence. This one also has a pulley system that I'm not sure is original. This is the same movement I posted before that the former "repairman" cut the chime main wheel out of the plate with a hacksaw! I could not get the plates hot enough to a better repair, so left his handy work as part of the clock's history.
     
  23. MartinM

    MartinM Registered User
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    My guess about the one you have there is that the hub goes through a plate or the end of a spring barrel and then the spring is installed and one end is secured to the plate/barrel via the loop that hangs off the main body of the spring. This would allow the hub to spin in one direction, only, as it relates to the plate/barrel.
    this one has apparently been tweaked by someone to try to improve the grab friction while not understanding how the device is supposed to actually work.
    The way it is, now, it can only provide a slight amount of drag on the hub and never be able to tighten-down and grab on it.
     
  24. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    Another odd thing is that the screws you see on the hub are not long enough to hold the hub to the arbor. I'm still baffled :)
     
  25. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    It doesn't require the double hub. The German time bomb doesn't
    have a double hub. It just has the arbor and the spring.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  26. MartinM

    MartinM Registered User
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    Yes. Another popular configuration is an inner and an outer hub where the inner is grabbed by the wrap-clutch-spring and the outer is affixed to the other end of the spring via a tang of some kind on the spring. Just as in the GTB.
     
  27. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    The double hub assumes both ends of the spring turn.
    This way if the shafts turn fast, the spring is contained.
    It just needs one end attached and the spring must drag
    enough to cause the spring to wind tighter.
    This is a similar concept as the toy called Chinese handcuffs
    ( only that is linear rather than rotational ).
    Tinker Dwight
     
  28. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    Here's what I discovered so far. I replaced the short screws with longer ones that will tighten against the arbor. This configuration allows the time side to wind CCW (from the front), and holds it from turning CW. Odd thing, but it works now at least. I'll play with the strike side later. Notice my home made post to hold the loop too. I used a couple pieces of a cuckoo perch wire.:)
     
  29. MartinM

    MartinM Registered User
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    Looks like you're on your way, now.

    A little off topic, but, I was wondering if anyone has ever reworked a GTB using a Torkelson clutch. More commonly known as a one-way bearing (The kind found in many automotive starters.)?
    I used to make click-less ratchets for my mechanic friends using these and know them to be pretty strong and reliable.
    The only 'fix' I believe I've seen for the GTB's plastic drum and spring failure is to keep the spring and replace the plastic with aluminum.
     
  30. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    I don't believe a spring, itself, has ever failed. This is the
    same as the spring that retracts the set belt in a car.
    These are quite reliable. The nylon end is likely the problem.
    One like a starter motor has would work but it is not a cheap
    thing to machine for a clock.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  31. shutterbug

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    One more update. I discovered that the spring on the strike was actually cracked, which weakened it enough to eventually break. I had to make a new one, and it seems to be functioning well. Tomorrow it goes on the test stand, and we'll see. I'll use the pulley system it came with, although I still wonder about that being original.
     
  32. shutterbug

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    I'm getting this thing finalized, and want your opinions on this. I don't think this SHOULD have pulleys, and although the time side runs quite well on half weight, the chime and strike seem to be struggling to function. This is the way I found this, but it looks wrong to me, and it's clear that the pulleys are too big for the weight hooks. What do you guys think? Maybe the weights were changed? I don't know.
     
  33. shimmystep

    shimmystep Registered User
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    The small hooks on the weights suggest strongly that they hook onto something smaller than those pulleys. I think even if it did need pulleys, they would be the wrong ones. However I agree, I'm not convinced there should pulleys at all. Near all the German weight driven longacse clocks, I've seen have not had pulleys, including higher end like Bauerle etc.

    Think they are the original chains? Any hooks on their ends? how heavy are the weights?
     
  34. Randy Beckett

    Randy Beckett Registered User
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    Since the clock is running, you should be able to measure the amount the weight drops in a day, and multiply that times 8. You should then be able tell whether there is enough room in its case to run for 8 days without the pulleys.
     
  35. chimeclockfan

    chimeclockfan Registered User
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    I have never seen a German 3 train chain driven clock with pulleys like that. I cannot imagine it's factory-original.
     
  36. Tinker Dwight

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    I've seen these pulleys once before. They are chain
    pulleys. specifically for chains.
    I think the 8 day run method will tell you if it is needed
    or not.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  37. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    That's a good point, Randy. I'll try that and see ;)
     
  38. shutterbug

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    I have measured the weights, and am more perplexed. The left is marked "L" and weighs 6 lbs. That's the chime. The right is marked "R" and weighs 8 lbs (the strike). The center is not marked and weighs a wopping 10.5 lbs. WAY more than needed for the time train. The clock is running quite well, and the weights all seem quite adequate. I'm tempted to use the pulley on the center weight. It would be fine at 5 lbs. Opinions? Oh, BTW the weights are dropping at about the right rate for 8 days.
     
  39. Tinker Dwight

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    Being unmarked might be an indications that someone in the past
    replaced it.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  40. MartinM

    MartinM Registered User
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    If you leave the pulley on the middle and switch the Chime and Strike weights, does the strike still work well?
    It's odd to have the lighter weight on the Chime.
     
  41. shutterbug

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    Yeah, I thought about that too. It's odd that they are marked. I might try to reduce the center weight, and forget the pulleys. I'm going to have to take it apart one more time - found an issue with the click on the chime side.
     
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