Master 400-Day by Nisshindo

[KurtinSA]

I've been trolling a nearby Goodwill store and saw this today...I was actually shocked to find anything there. It's by the Nisshindo Watch Co., the Master 400-Day, plate 1461E due to the rounded corners. Previously John had said that these were likely produced in the mid 1960s, not 1950s as the guide says. I took the suspension guard off; there's a key but the shank has fractured from the winding wings...I might be able to reattach some how.

The fork is oddly aligned. Any chance that the suspension spring is supposed to be so twisted?? I suspect not...we've had another recent thread about a severely twisted spring. I also notice some kind of pointer that wraps around the adjuster knob. I can't figure out what that's for other than as a reference to where the adjuster is moved during regulation.

I did some searching for other threads and found where John says that the spring barrel shouldn't be opened...synthetic oil is used and the cover is crimped in place:

https://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php...aster-standard&p=989154&viewfull=1#post989154

Good to know. But the winding arbor appears to be quite locked up...can't wind or unwind it...plus I don't see an easy way to get to the click to release the power. Manually moving the anchor pin doesn't release the escape wheel, so the whole train appears to be locked. If anyone has some ideas, I'm all ears.

I see where Burkhard posted in the past about a very similar carriage-type clock:

https://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?57119-Best-I-could-make-out-of-it

Kurt
~

 

[Tinker Dwight]

It looks like they couldn't wind it with the key so they tried
the bob.
You'd want to at least straighten it below the fork, so
you can adjust it there.
It's clearly twisted but you should be able to get it working
after adjusting the fork a little.
Tinker Dwight

 

[Burkhard Rasch]

If I recall correctly You have to dismantle hands and dial and get the mvmt. off the support plate to get access to the click.Prepare with gloves and a good let-down- tool,maybe another pair of helping hands to hold the mvmt. while doing the let-down- job could be helpfull.
Burkhard

 

[KurtinSA]

Burkhard -

I suspect you're right. Although, I might be able to come in from the side and use a pencil or something to hold the click up while I use my letdown chuck to release the spring. If I can't do that, I might try to remove the anchor by separating the plates enough at the top to slip the anchor arbor out, then put the plates back together...all while holding the movement from releasing!! On my other clock (still in work) with a similar issue, the Petersen clock allowed for easy removal of the anchor since the eccentric was on a movable plate behind the clock dial. I'll have to look at things more.

Kurt

 

[KurtinSA]

I managed to let the main spring down. I noticed some corrosion around the winding arbor pivot on the back plate. I put a few drops of penetrant on it. After a bit, I found that I could actually wind the spring a bit...it was very nearly fully wound. That let me use a screw driver to push open the click and let the spring down a small turn. I kept at that until the power is completely off. Most of the wheels move except the first wheel. I suspect there's more corrosion in there. None of the arbors move back and forth easily...again, probably some corrosion. So, I'll put this in the queue to pull down for a look see.

Kurt

 

[Burkhard Rasch]

glad to hear the mainspring is let down and You still have You 10 fingers!
Burkhard

 

[KurtinSA]

..and two eyes! I'm anxious to see what's wrong with the train...it's not freed up at this point.

Kurt

 

[Les Sanders]

..and two eyes! I'm anxious to see what's wrong with the train...it's not freed up at this point.

Kurt

I have one of these, If I can send you any pictures to help let me know. Mine was running when my Wife found it at a Goodwill Store!! Funny!

 

[KurtinSA]

Les -

I haven't taken it apart yet, but usually take pictures as it comes apart. I'll let you know if I'm missing a shot or two when I get there.

Kurt

 

[KurtinSA]

I disassembled the clock. I was a little concerned that there was no movement in the arbors...no end shake between the plates. Turns out the pivots were corroded into the plates...it took some gentle coaxing to separate the plates and pull all of the arbors out.

The base appears to have had at one time a black band around it. I haven't gotten around to doing any polishing, but would think that if I were to touch this area, the remaining black would come off. Any suggestions as to what to do? What would I use to make it black again? Or would it be a better looking clock to just return it all to the same brass color?

Thanks...Kurt

 

[Burkhard Rasch]

Kurt,be carefull "polishing" any part of the case of this clock.The quality of the case is not comparable to german contemporary clocks.The main parts of this case are all made of spelter/pot metall covered with a verry thin layer of brass.I helped me with a golden high gloss laquer.I´m afaid the "black" is the spelter comming through.The other option would be re-brassing.
Good luck
Burkhard

 

[KurtinSA]

Burkhard -

Interesting...good to know. I might try my polishing on the backside in a small area and see what happens to it. The other parts of the base look OK, maybe just a little dirty.

Kurt

 

[KurtinSA]

I guess I need to find a new hobby. I thought I'd get started on this clock and during my cleaning/drying process, I broke the pin off the anchor. The pin broke off inside the anchor, so nothing to grab onto. The pin is a shade under 1mm in diameter. How do I get the broken piece out? I'm hoping that if I do that, I can slide the rest the pin into the hole....maybe glue it in place. I'm not sure if I need the whole length of the pin when the clock is set up. There probably is only 1mm of the pin that stayed inside the anchor...seems like I could get by with this missing in terms of length.

I suppose these things happen, but these are learning experiences that I'm not set to deal with just yet...

Kurt

 

[shutterbug]

File it flat, then drill it out. A drill press will help keep things aligned. If you put a slight taper on the pin, it will go in tight. Make your hole just slightly smaller than the pin.

 

[KurtinSA]

sb -

I figured that's what I'd have to do. I don't have a drill press, but will see if I can get some kind of work station for my dremel. The issue is going to be holding the anchor...looks like I'll have to remove the pallets but not sure I have a screwdriver blade that small. And getting the arbor out of the anchor is not something I want to attempt. This has disaster written all over it.

Thanks...Kurt

 

[Burkhard Rasch]

If the anchor is made of a brass "body" with steel pallets attached with steel skrews You can use the alum method. Unskrew all steel parts and pull the shaft,then throw the bare brass body into a hypersaturated solution of alum in a glass bowl.Let it there for several days and heat it up from time to time.The alum will desintegrate the steel pin to a black dust that can be pulled out of the respective hole of the brass anchor with a needle,while leaving the brass intact.After removal of the dust taper a new pin of the same strength at one end and drive it pressfit into the anchor.The only difficulty I see is to assure that You reattach the pallets to the same depth as before.You could mark them with a tiny scratch??HTH
Burkhard

 

[KurtinSA]

Burkhard -

The anchor assembly is all steel as far as I can see. I've purchased a Dremel workstation which is a desktop drill press...probably something I've needed anyway. I have some drill bits that are less than the diameter of the pin. I've got some ideas of how to stabilize the anchor so I can get a true shot at the broken piece. I'll approach this slowly.

I guess these are moments to "allow" one to buy more tools, huh!! I'm just such an idiot for letting this happen.

Kurt

 

[Tinker Dwight]

You may have issues drilling the pin. The main reason
the pin broke is that it is hardened,
If you don't immediately see metal curling off the bit, stop.
You can use a carbide bit but they are very brittle and can
not be used with a hand held setup.
A safer way is to remove the arbor and drill from the other side
When you hit the pin, you can use a punch to knock it out.
Tinker Dwight

 

[KurtinSA]

Tinker -

That thought had crossed my mind. I'll just have to see.

Kurt

 

[shutterbug]

I don't believe the pin is hardened. It could be, but there would be no reason to have a hardened pin there.

 

[KurtinSA]

I successfully drilled out the stub stuck in the anchor, at least I've created another hole there. I took the old pin and did my best to create a taper for the new hole. I don't think it will stake into place, so my first approach will be to use some thread locker along with some glue around the joint of the pin and anchor. I feel it will need some lateral support to transfer the load through the pin created by the fork moving back and forth. Probably not much chance in working, but if that doesn't work, I can always try some other more aggressive approach. At least that's where I'm at now....I haven't totally effed it up so far.

Kurt

 

[Burkhard Rasch]

there is not much load on that pin,it should sit firmly in the anchor,but not more is to observe.You can either glue it with some expoxy stuff or solder if You remove all exess solder.
Burkhard

 

[KurtinSA]

The key came to me like this...the shank broken from the winding wings. Is there any approach I could use that would make it usable again? Would a particular type of welding do the trick? Granted a lot of heat would be involved which might do more harm than good. I can't see how a simple bolt affair would be strong enough. Oh, I should add that there's a crack on the shank running from the opening along one of the corners of the 4-sided arbor hole. Certainly, if that lets go when winding, damage to the clock. Are these keys available somewhere?

Thanks...Kurt
~

 

[MartinM]

If the shank is split along one of the broached corners, the key really should be tossed. I have turned them down and soldered on a brass pipe a couple of times and so far that seems to work, but it's probably not worth the effort on this one. Horolovar should have a bunch of those keys.

 

[shutterbug]

It looks like it was riveted originally. You could drill it out and stick another rivet in it.

 

[KurtinSA]

It looks like it was riveted originally. You could drill it out and stick another rivet in it.

Unfortunately, half of the shank is missing; their were two halves that when around the flat portion of the winding wings. But one half gone, there's nothing to grab onto. Having the crack in the corner of the arbor winding part sure seems like a deal breaker.

I'm missing a bunch of keys anyway. I was planning on going to the St. Louis Regional with the sole purpose of finding missing keys. I can add this one to the list. I can wind the clock now with my letdown chuck, but just wanted to get a separate key...eventually.

Kurt

 

[Tinker Dwight]

You can buy the key shafts. That way you
could save the neat handle end.
Tinker Dwight

 

[Burkhard Rasch]

good idea,buy a new keY and swap the shafts to keep the handle.They didn't use the best materials on these ones,allthough they´re nice to look at!
Burkhard

 

[KurtinSA]

I have a few keys...it's not clear looking at them how the shaft could be taken off without mangling the entire thing.

Kurt

 

[Tinker Dwight]

I'm almost sure Timesavers has separate key shafts. No need
to take one apart.
Tinker Dwight

 

[KurtinSA]

Finally got everything together. Thanks for all the support along the way. The repair of the anchor pin seems to have gone well. I did end up polishing the blackish coloring along the bottom...it came right off and revealed shiny brass underneath...I didn't go hogwild with that, but it cleaned up nice enough. I couldn't get the top and bottom blocks off the original severely twisted suspension spring. The screws and the flats for the screws just wouldn't let me loosen them. So, I sacrificed some top blocks I had sitting around...not ideal, but it seems to work. The bottom block on this clock is also held in place with a small screw, like most top blocks. So, taking the pendulum off is not as easy as the usual clocks.

The guide calls for a 0.0034" spring and I purchased a pack from The Horolovar store. The springs were a bit undersized...seems strange. Despite that, the clock is running fast, so I'll have to get a handle on time regulation.

Kurt
~

 

[Burkhard Rasch]

check the total weight of the pendulum,someone before could have lighthened it to fit another suspension spring "at hand".They are nicely proportioned clocks,congrats!
Burkhard

 

[KurtinSA]

Burkhard -

Thanks. I wondered about that, but I've not seen a published list of pendulum weights for anniversary clocks...sure would be nice to have that. Do you recall the weight of the pendulum in your clock?

The spring that was in the clock...it was severely twisted...measured 0.003" while I installed a ~0.0032" for plate 1461E...guide says 0.0034". As I said, springs from the pack are undersized using the micrometer I have. I am monitoring the time over the next few days to see if it is consistently fast and not fluttering...I don't think it is.

Kurt

 

[Burkhard Rasch]

I weighted mine on an electronic kitchen scale :261gramms.HTH
Burkhard

 

[KurtinSA]

Burkhard -

As a follow up, of course the pendulum balls cover the lead weights...I didn't actually remove the covers, but there are large holes on the underside that make it easy to see the weights. As it turns out, there are only two weights on opposite sides...the other two balls appear to have no weight in them at all.

My first long term time hack shows that the clock is fast about 3.57 minutes per hour. I did a stop watch check of 8 rotations which turned out to be 56.65 seconds or 3.45 seconds fast for a nominal time of 60 seconds. So it would appear that from this limited data, the clock is probably not fluttering. From discussions on other threads, the thickness of 0.0001" can make a difference of 4 minutes per hour. Maybe that's beginning to point to a direction to go.

Kurt

 

[Burkhard Rasch]

You could proceed in two different directions now:either make a new SS one size thinner (or "stone down" the SS You have ) or fill the weight shells with lead,say lead shot for example or rolled sheet lead that You can obtain from a roofer,or make a clay form and cast it Yourself which is not too difficult.I´d prefer to give the pendulum its original weight back;You save Yourself and another repair person in the future from much trouble that way.
Just my 2cts..
Burkhard

 

[John Hubby]

Burkhard, good advice! When I find this kind of bodge, the first thing I do is dig through my parts bin to find a junk pendulum that has weights small enough to fit inside the shells. Then, make a weight comparison and if needed adjust the replacements to equal the originals. When that is done for this clock, almost certainly the 0.0034" spring will be the right one to keep time.

 

[KurtinSA]

My bad. Upon disassembly, here's the situation with the pendulum. All four balls are solid weights/lead. Two have the conical inserts which I presume help steady the weights...the inserts don't weigh very much. So, with this, I guess I do need to go down a 0.0001" on my spring. I timed the gain over 36 hours and at each increment, it was a very steady 3.5 minutes per hour, give or take.

I guess this is just one of those deviations from the repair guide.

Kurt
~

 

[Burkhard Rasch]

weight what You have and ad lead shot upto 261gramms and Your pendulum should be in the range of regulation.
Burkhard

 

[KurtinSA]

Burkhard -

I ended up not weighing the pendulum...I was prepared to do that this morning, but after looking at the pieces, decided not to...plus I have to go back to my office (now retired!).

I remeasured the suspension spring. It came from a Horolovar package marked 0.0034". I measured all the springs and they were essentially 0.0035". (On a previous post, I thought it was 0.0032"...not sure what I was looking at.) Not sure what to say about quality control. Not having any true 0.0034" springs around (per the guide), I had to go the thinning route. I took about 15-20 passes with 600 grit sandpaper, measuring at various stages. I got as close to 0.0034" as I can see. I've remounted the pendulum and started the clock.

Before, the time for 8 beats was about 56.65 seconds. I just retimed 8 beats...it was 1:00.25 seconds. So, if that holds up, I should easily be within regulation. The adjuster is sitting in the mid range right now.

Kurt

 

[Burkhard Rasch]

I think You've got it!Congrats!
Best regards
Burkhard

 

[John Hubby]

Kurt, I'm curious about the Horolovar springs not being exactly on spec. When this has happened in the past it has usually been a packaging error; only on one occasion in the mid-90's when Horolovar had to change spring manufacturers did they have a significant problem with off-spec springs. If the whole package is off this should be reported to Horolovar so they can check their stock. Also, if you could obtain another measuring device for a recheck it would be good to have that for comparison.

The following is from my mentor with regard to the feeding and care of micrometers, calipers, dial gages, and other thickness measuring devices. It's not about whether anyone knows how to measure thickness, as that is not rocket science but does require basic understanding of how to achieve repeatability in measurement.

Are you using a mechanical or digital micrometer? Or a caliper? Does your device read directly to one ten thousandth inch or do you have to interpolate? Have you checked the platens (either type of device) with a microscope or other high power (10x plus) viewer to ensure there is no debris or defects of any kind in the measuring surfaces? Have you left the device closed under pressure for any period of time (must leave them open when not in use for best accuracy)? Do you recheck the zero each time you use the device?

Micrometers (and especially calipers) must be treated with respect and care to be able to provide accurate, repeatable results. A one ten thousandth error is not unusual for any device that has not received due care with each use, and in particular one that does not give you direct reading to the desired level of measurement.

 

[KurtinSA]

John -

I appreciate the inquiry. Let me try and answer your questions. I'll preface it by saying I'm not a machinist though I am an aerospace engineer.

Are you using a mechanical or digital micrometer? Or a caliper? It is a mechanical micrometer made by Pittsburgh, with a stated measuring range of 0.0001" to 1". I bought it at Harbor Freight. I read some reviews online by people who had used this device in a mechanics class and it met all the requirements for them.

Does your device read directly to one ten thousandth inch or do you have to interpolate? It has an "odometer" on it to read to 0.001" with a Vernier scale to read to 0.0001". For example, to read between 0.002" and 0.003", I have to read the scale to estimate where the next digit is. There is one tic mark between 0.002" and 0.003" at the 0.0005" increment.

Have you checked the platens (either type of device) with a microscope or other high power (10x plus) viewer to ensure there is no debris or defects of any kind in the measuring surfaces? No, I have not.

Have you left the device closed under pressure for any period of time (must leave them open when not in use for best accuracy)? No, I do not run the device down with pressure to keep it closed. In fact, most of the time after use, I put it back in the box and it is left at the reading I was taking or slight above as I widen the gap to remove my spring.

Do you recheck the zero each time you use the device? Not each time, but I do occasionally. When I do as I have just done, the two zeroes on the scale line up.

So, lots of reasons to consider my readings suspect, from the equipment and my techniques. But, based upon what happened with this clock, I would say it gave me the proper readings to make a decision. I used springs right from the package marked as 0.0034" and required/suggested per the repair guide. I assembled the clock but was getting readings that were 3.5 minutes per hour too fast...suggestive of a too thick spring. (Initially it was thought my pendulum weight was low but that turned out not to be the case.) I then measured the spring I had used and all of the ones in the package. My instrument/technique showed them to be 0.0035". I thinned the installed spring, monitoring the change in thickness at several places on the spring, stopping when I could read ("interpolate") to 0.0034"...whatever it was it was certainly less than 0.0035" as shown on the scale. The clock is now running well within adjustment ranges. After 16 hours, I'm running about 4 minutes fast.

What I will do is take the remaining two springs from the package to one of the mechanics at my former work place. I will also take my micrometer and ask him to take measurements with their device and mine. I will report back.

Kurt

 

[MartinM]

If your friend has a set of pin gages, you should be able to check/calibrate your micrometer with little or no ambiguity.
When I'm doing quick checks on springs (to validate a new purchase) I just use a dial caliper and estimate the last ten-thousandth.
For real accuracy, I go to the vernier mic. If you're using an analog vernier mic and it's in decent shape, you really can't get much better in the realm of possible options most of us can afford.
If you can't close the device to get a good zero, try loosely measuring a piece of paper and use the paper to clean any debris from the carbide surfaces.
Given the scarcity of this clock, it's likely that there are a number of factors contributing to the discrepancies.

 

[KurtinSA]

Thanks, Martin. I'll get my micrometer checked tomorrow.

But taking what the guide says as needing a 0.0034" spring and my micrometer now says I have a 0.0034" spring after thinning down from 0.0035", that suggests that the springs I received were not correct. I say "suggests"...I'll have to have someone else measure the springs. I'm even contemplating taking the package up to my local NAWCC chapter meeting on April 9th and asking one of the "true" clock repairmen to measure them. I think at that point, this would probably define what the issue really is.

Kurt

 

[KurtinSA]

I thought I'd measure all the few springs I still have in packs. The first number is the package dimension; the following numbers are what I measured with my micrometer. I did all of these the same way.

0.0023 -- 0.00225
0.0023 -- 0.0023, 0.0025, 0.00225
0.0032 -- 0.00315
0.0033 -- 0.00325, 0.00325
0.0034 -- 0.0035, 0.0035
0.004 --- 0.004, 0.004

With the exception of the 0.0034" springs, all were exact or very close to the package dimension. I might have stretched it a bit with the 0.00005 "guess" but I just couldn't call it at the ten-thousandths dimension. At any rate, they were effectively what the package said. I'll know a bit more tomorrow, but I think the 0034 package is off.

Kurt

 

[Tinker Dwight]

I just don't know if I'd trust your micrometer to that
level.
If you had a calibration set that had a .00034
pin or shim, maybe. +-.0001 is still within the manufactures specs.
Tinker Dwight

 

[KurtinSA]

I'm just looking at the relative readings. The 0.0034 springs just don't look right.

Kurt

 

[KurtinSA]

I had a chance to have people at work measure the springs. First, I found out that I don't have to estimate the 4th digit on my micrometer...the vernier scale is used to find that number exactly. That was a feature that I was not aware of.

One technician used my micrometer and measured both springs as 0.0035". I had another guy use his digital micrometer as well as mine and he also measured 0.0035" on mine and 0.00355" on his. His digital device was accurate to the 5th decimal place.

So it appears from this that the springs I received are out of spec. I will drop a line to Chris at Horolovar so he can check some of his inventory.

Kurt

 

[John Hubby]

Kurt, thanks for the followup. Your original measurements were correct, thanks also for reporting the discrepancy to Chris at Horolovar. I suspect a packaging error, however it probably affected several packages and not just yours so Chris will need to do an inventory check.