Marts and gold scrappers

Discussion in 'Member News and Views' started by musicguy, Sep 16, 2018.

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  1. Jim Haney

    Jim Haney Registered User
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    Kevin & Shutt,

    Because they provide a useful service to the attendees by paying cash for worn out junk.

    I believe Rob was mistaken in assuming the cases he saw being scrapped were good cases, maybe not, however It just doesn't seem likely to scrap good cases when you can sell them for more than scrap.

    Also, consider that these people are paying NAWCC members and usually are the higher priced Business members and the 2 that I mentioned buy up 4-6 tables per show, so why would you want to ban these members?

    Just to clear the air, Rob is a friend of mine. We have corresponded many times over the almost 2 years he has been a member and I have done work for him and we have talked on the phone. We can disagree and still be friends and I know he would agree so I didn't want anyone thinking anything different.
     
  2. bruce linde

    bruce linde Technical Admin
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    cindy - welcome, and thank you for your comments. yes, there are many entrenched and strong opinions to be found on the message board. thx for rolling with them! :cool:

    everyone else - the discussion is getting polarized and a little too personal. if you've already stated your position, there is no need to re-state it. if you can't state your position without telling someone else how wrong they are, keep it to yourself.






    THIS is the bottom line issue... is scrapping at marts allowed by the NAWCC? or does it go against policies and/or mission?

    i will work with rob / musicguy to get this question / complaint to the right parties for a more official response.








    this is not about 'looking closely at the goods being sold'... either scrapping is supported by the organization or it isn't... we don't know the current official answer yet.

    this comment is also way too judgemental and insulting. imagine how you'd feel if i responded that comments like this tend to come from crusty old long-time members whose personal interaction skills trail behind their clock and watch expertise? i guarantee you wouldn't like it... and two wrongs wouldn't make a right. :cool:

    i think what you're really saying is that not everyone who scraps is a bad person for scrapping... and there are no doubt people who err on the side of money, rather than horology... which is sad.









    again, this is a specious argument. you are the one who brought up the condition of the cases... it doesn't matter. the issue is whether the organization supports scrapping as a legitimate part of our horologic mission to preserve and educate.

    until we get an answer, i'm asking everyone to stand down... or at least play better with each other.









    you may be right... but what question are you answering? certainly not the one posted by the OP.

    what bottom feeders? what bargain hunters? who's whining?

    the loudest voices here are yours and jim's... and i would ask you both as long-time members to tone it down and have more civil discourse with your peers. 'bite (butt?) out', 'bottom feeders', 'too cheap'... really? this kind of hyperbole is unnecessary.


















     
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  3. Kevin W.

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    Jim Haney, i dont feel its all scrap they buy, and others have witnessed it, so its something i feel that should be looked at by the NAWCC. As far as being civil to people i always try to do this and i like good discussions.
     
  4. Jim Haney

    Jim Haney Registered User
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    Jim Haney said.
    Complaints like this usually come from newer members who see this activity going on but don't bother to ask questions or look closely at the goods being sold.





    Bruce,

    Who are you to decide if my comment (in your opinion) is way to judgmental & insulting? It is not. It is based on the facts as Rob stated them.
    He is a newer member(fact) he didn't didn't ask any questions(fact) and he didn't look at the goods (fact)

    You ARE calling me a crusty old member by your statement above and insulting me with your comments about not having any personal interaction skills.

    Bruce this thread was doing fine until you decided to become a Moderator and correct everyone.

    You are the one who is not playing nice.Take your own advise and stand down.
     
  5. bruce linde

    bruce linde Technical Admin
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    told you you wouldn't like it! :cool: sorry if i offended... again, two wrongs don't make a right.

    to answer your question: i am one of the admins responsible for keeping the message board running. i am one of the participants in the 'moderators and admins' forum who reviews the 'reported posts' forum... where this thread has landed several times already... with the ability and privileges to moderate posts as needed... but always try to defer to the actual moderators.

    this thread was not 'doing fine' until i came along.... one of our new members (and a participant... and a woman) made it clear that the heat was turned higher than expected in this forum and in fact the thread has been reported to the admins and moderators several times already.

    the OP reported discomfort with scrappers appearing to be endorsed or supported by the NAWCC at marts... and suggested that they shouldn't be. you thought he was dissing your friends (he wasn't) and tried to make the discussion about whether items should or shouldn't be scrapped. you and bryan then starting making comments questioning people's skill levels and/or commitment to the organization... hence multiple reported posts that the admins and moderators have had to wade through.

    i have sent an email to our executive director requesting a clarification on how the organization feels about scrappers, and whether allow them at marts fits with our mission (and non-profit status). i will circle back if/when i hear from him.

    in the meantime, everyone seems to have staked out their positions... let's see what management has to say.
     
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  6. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

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    Hi, in my humble opinion this is starting to go over the top; please everyone who is involved forget the differences of opinion, and move on to more fruitful discussion about Pocket Watches and movements!!! Regards Ray
     
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  7. mikeh

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    Several years ago, there was a guy buying nice, complete, and apparently original watches at marts, on ebay, etc. and parting them out. He would get lucky on some and make a big profit, but on many I tried to track, he would clear maybe a hundred bucks. There's no telling how many nice watches this member destroyed for a modest profit.

    Now the price of gold has surpassed the collector value for many watches. So the scrapper will buy a watch, scrap the case, sell the movement, and pocket whatever profit. I don't see many of them attempting to sell the complete watch, but maybe they are. I sense that they buy it to scrap, but that's just an opinion.

    Unless we want to get sued, the NAWCC is really powerless, so don't blame them. It would be interesting to see how far an ethics complaint would go though.

    As I recall, the guy parting out the watches claimed that if we paid more, he wouldn't be able to buy them and make anything. What a coincidence.

    Anyway, the result of both of these practices is a world full of movements for collectors to enjoy. Get used to it. I call them greedy and they call me cheap. Sigh.
     
  8. ben_hutcherson

    ben_hutcherson Registered User
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    Just going to say-
    I know Bill Beams fairly well. He's not a collector, but is honest and pays prices as good as any other gold buyer I've dealt with.

    When I have worn out cases to dispose of, he does me a service if I happen to see him at a show and have junk to sell him.

    If I were so inclined, I COULD refuse to sell him a table at the show closest to him. I won't do that. He usually buys a few tables, and guys come to the show expecting to see him there. He lets them clean stuff out, and gets money flowing in the mart room-something that benefits all the other table holders. Again, I'm probably biased in that I consider him a friend, but I wouldn't ban him.

    (aside from that, a lot the the local guys would just wait a few weeks until the next gun show and sell to him there...)

    For those upset about scrapping-the next time I have a bunch of worn out gold filled cases, or a cheaply made karat gold case with a broken catch or other big issues, I'm certainly happy to give you the chance to buy it. I'll call Bill and get a price on it, and you can have it for what he'd pay me for it.
     
  9. Bryan Eyring

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    This about sums it up - there is currently an entire "class" of collectors that need to graduate soon, otherwise we will continue to see this destruction of the higher end pieces.
     
  10. richiec

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    #60 richiec, Sep 19, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2018
    mikeh, unfortunately you can't carry a movement in your pocket. As a result of scrapping, the pricing on cases keeps going up, so the average collector, us poor guys, won't be able to collect even the mid grade stuff. Right now, mediocre 16 and 18 size gold filled cases are going for over $100, throw in a medium grade movement and now even average stuff is over $150 and so it will go on and on. And the stuff that the scrapper picked that I saw was not worn out, he didn't want the worn stuff. Tough to "step up" when your income doesn't allow it and prices keep passing you by as scrapping drives the other stuff up. Nice if you are on an unlimited budget but these days there is health insurance, workers comp insurance, liability insurance, car insurance, homeowners insurance, groceries, gas, car payments and maintenance, basically life in general. Maybe I picked the wrong hobby, didn't seem like it 12 years ago. With no new collectors, you can't sell the entry level stuff to buy the upper level stuff.
     
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  11. Dick C

    Dick C Registered User

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    Maybe there is a "good old boy" reason?
     
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  12. mikeh

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    You miss the point. You’re blaming collectors who are not willing to either pay more than collector value or bet that gold will continue to rise (at which point they themselves would have to scrap in order to recoup their cost). Scrap if you want, but don’t blame me. And don’t make it sound like they’re not advanced enough to know what they’re doing.
     
  13. rrstd

    rrstd Registered User
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    Like most collectors, I am a bit uneasy with the scrapping of cases. Having said that, I'm also a realist and understand that, to some degree, the activity is inevitable.

    Labelling scrappers as evil/undesirable or blaming collectors for being too cheap to step up and pay more will do little to change the situation. As long as it remains economically advantageous to scrap, the activity will continue. Unfortunately, these economics will always be fluid as collector value is based on supply/demand and gold has a fluctuating value. Using myself as an example, I would be buying a higher percentage of gold watches for my collection if gold were to drop to $500 and oz. At the same time, I would have little to no interest in buying gold if it were to jump up to say $2000 an oz.

    In regards to banning those who are either directly or indirectly in the scrapping business from our marts, I believe this is a bad idea for the following reasons:

    1. Who will be the judge to decide who might be buying cases to scrap versus buying gold cased watches for either resell or their own collection. Those who are openly in the business are not the only ones scrapping cases.
    2. The scrappers who attend our marts usually have at least a basic knowledge of the watches and/or cases they are taking in. Unlike many local gold buyers, they are usually able to recognize cases and/or movements that have significant collector value and save these items back. By banning these individuals from doing business at our marts, we could end up doing more harm than good by driving more scrapping to local gold buyers who are more likely to toss movements and send ALL cases to melt.
    3. As others have mentioned, not all cases are worth saving. Badly damaged or worn out cases are of little interest to almost all collectors.
    4. Also mentioned previously, the scrapping activity also generates cash into the mart room. I have also noticed that watches are not all that is being scrapped at regional and national marts. A portion of what is being sold to scrappers is jewelry and other items containing precision metals. One has to believe that some of this cash ends up being spent on watches and clocks being offered by other dealers at the mart.

    As an organization, it is my belief that the NAWCC is better served on working towards increasing interest and knowledge in watches and clocks.
     
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  14. shutterbug

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    I believe each mart sets it's own rules. Complaints made directly to the organizers of the mart would probably be more effective than a rule from the organization headquarters.
     
  15. Robert J. Moore

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    When I see available gold cases in good condition I buy them not only for my own collection but to preserve them from being melted down. What a waste of beauty and art and history
     
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  16. musicguy

    musicguy Moderator
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    rrstd,
    I think this is a well thought out and well written answer. I do still feel uneasy about the scrappers who attend the marts
    but you do make some good points.

    Rob
     
  17. sprio

    sprio Registered User
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    This, in my opinion, is more than a policy or mission issue - this is a tenet of the Member's Code of Ethics that each member agrees to by virtue of paying their dues. If members do not follow the Code, and/or it is not enforced, what good is it? Why subscribe to a Code of Ethics at all? I understand that each Mart sets their own rules, but this is a MEMBER ISSUE, not a Mart issue - if you see someone who you feel is violating the Code to which we all subscribe, then report them. Let the Ethics Committee make the decision. If the overwhelming majority of Members disagree with what's in the Code, or how it's written, then work with the Board of Directors to amend the language so it's more clearly written and enforceable.
     
  18. Bryan Eyring

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    Mike, forget collector value - these people don't even want to pay the intrinsic value. If one is not willing to pay intrinsic value they're clearly not that advanced!

    Straight up this is a cheap hobby dominated by even cheaper collectors...and it keeps getting cheaper.

    Like I said earlier, we really need a graduating class here soon, lest the destruction continue.
     
  19. richiec

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    Bryan, I'll state it again, if there are no new members to purchase the cheaper entry or mid level stuff, where does one get the money to upgrade to better stuff? It's not like I have thousands of dollars set aside to buy watches at my age, got to worry about a major illness and stuff like that. Sure, I'd love to have an 1872 Waltham in a gold case or a crystal plate '72 but until I can divest myself of some of the lower and moderate grade stuff, that ain't gonna happen. Not enough new blood in this field and right now, watch prices seem to be at an all time low unless it is 14 or 18K. If the owners of these watches are truly collectors, they would not scrap them. Face it, the marts are dying a slow death with eBay out there, can't sell an 18 size watch in a nickel case for $50 these days or a 17 jewel 12 size gold filled for $40. So I guess the scrappers win.
     
  20. Keith Conklin

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    3. Members shall support the collection and preservation of horological items and knowledge, not engage in activities that encourage the loss of these to posterity, and shall take reasonable and proper care of all horological items in their possession.

    I respect the fact that the clocks in my possession are not being manufactured anymore and if I destroy them they will be gone.
    That's what this line means to me.

    If someone wants to destroy a horological item that belongs to them, it is not my business, saddened though I may be.

    If I go somewhere to be with people who share my love of something, having someone there whose sole purpose is to purchase those items to turn them into scrap kind of spoils the mood.

    Just my two cents.
     
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  21. Bryan Eyring

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    I wouldn't agree with this. I've had a lot of new blood buying $100 and less items from me on ebay, some with good margin.

    If you really aspire to own a 72 AWCO or CP and don't have the cash to do it then it sounds like you'd better start selling, even if it means doing so at a loss.

    Would you rather die with a hoard of common watches, or with a handful of rare gems?

    Quality over quantity - an axiom that differentiates the serious from the novice, and a concept that most collectors fail to understand, much less embrace.
     
  22. Dave Coatsworth

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    I agree with Bryan. The under $100 market is pretty strong with new buyers. I don't have much problem at all selling these low end watches. The high end is also pretty good as serious collectors will always buy quality. The middle is a completely different story! All those RR watches that were hoarded before the recession continue to sink as more and more of them come back on the market.
     
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  23. DeweyC

    DeweyC Registered User
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    Just came across this thread and it reveals a very real ethical conundrum.

    On one hand, there is the ethical position that an owner is the custodian of something and they are in the best position to decide how it is used.

    On the other hand is the equally ethical position that the purpose of the NAWCC is preservation.

    Then comes reality. I do not know if it is still done, but 10 years ago the NAWCC was selling verge balance cocks in the store.

    As a chair of MART security for Chapt 1 in the 90s, I can attest it is very hard to enforce rules. Period. Issues like "selling tables" crop up.

    Then I have my personal experience. I had an early keywind Miller in its original 18Kt case. Worn thin with no engraving left. Tried selling for several years but no one liked it because of the case (was selling it for 20% over case scrap, not even for the movement). Last year finally did sell it for the scrap value of the case. I could only hope.

    Historic value seems to get lost on most buyers. I think it is a result from the 1970s and 80s when the whole idea of the Mart was to make a quick turnover. And yes, that is my conclusion of the Mart's purpose in that time period. I was there.

    OTOH, especially for Jim and Jerry, I happen to like cases that show their age. I do not think brass showing at wear points is a problem. This is especially true for hand engraved cases and cases for early Hamiltons.

    I do have some "perfect" engraved GF cases; but I do not wear them. I even send some to Fassler (who I HIGHLY recommend) to be restored like I do watches. I just ask him to not disturb the existing finish.

    I totally agree with Jerry that it is very likely that the IMPORTANCE of the case as an artifact is ignored by a seller.

    Personally, I prefer nickel cases and hand engraved GF cases. These are lower in the food chain and unlikely to be scrapped. They are the best alternatives for preserving the movement. But again, I am guilty of buying Waltham cases to fit early Hamilton pendant sets. My rationalization is that there are tons of Waltham 15 jewel watches but often fewer than 5,000 of any particular early 16s grade of Hamilton PS watches. And almost all early Hamilton hunters are found uncased.

    Somebody once criticized me for having extra screw marks in a cased Hamilton. Do you know how many cases were switched around in the 80s to make a watch more marketable by fitting "the expert's" pronounced of what a RR watch should look like?

    And since I am concerned about the movement, I want to give it the best chance of surviving past my "ownership".

    Finally, having grown up in the projects of NY, I can totally get that food for the kids comes before concerns about history.

    The real issue is that unless there is an active market of buyers concerned about historical importance, too many sellers are going to be stuck with the scrapper.

    I talked to Bill Eicholz about how very little value is but on the fact that many of the engraved hunting cases are examples of an individual's art/craft. He told me there are people collecting cases and looking for movements. So there are people who are keeping things away from the scrap crucible.

    All those engraved gold cases...lost. WWI, the Depression,
    WWII, 1980s gold rush, 2008 depression, and 2008 gold rush until today.

    The only conclusion I have based on this thread is that Jerry is absolutely correct about "worn" cases. There ARE people who do not consider them unattractive or unimportant. Again though, we run into the problem of a real market that connects sellers with buyers.
     
  24. Jim Haney

    Jim Haney Registered User
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    Dewey,
    Thank you for your thoughts and comments and you would have to agree with the comments in this thread, that we stand divided on the definition of "worn".

    What is worn to one person may be acceptable to someone else. I don't think that anybody would get upset with cases that don't have any gold left showing and cases that are missing pieces, and pendants, bent up pst repair, etc, but where is the line drawn on how much gold is gone to say this case is ugly and detracts from the watch?

    It is not the NAWCC job to be the police force, just let their policy statement stand for what the organization believes in and that should be enough.

    Someones personal property is their business and we all hope that they wouldn't melt a usable product that someone else would love to have.
     
  25. DeweyC

    DeweyC Registered User
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    JIm,

    I certainly do things with open eyes that others may consider terrible. But, generally, those decisions are mine alone to make. Life is messy.

    This is certainly a thorny issue. It occurs to me that one way to look at it is to seperate the actors; buyer, seller and market provider (NAWCC being but one). The buyer and seller are free to make decisions based on their own needs and beliefs. The market provider sets the rules for the transactions in their venue. A buyer and seller can use any of a number of markets; ebay, a buyer's office, flea market or NAWCC.

    For me, the issue comes in when an Association sets a standard. An assoication is nothing more than a group of individuals who agree to abide by those standards. In the case of a non-profit, those standards also form the basis for the way the organization is treated by governments and donors.

    One of the reasons I left NAWCC for maybe 10 years (no. 76778) was when I saw those balance cocks in the NAWCC store. Expedience over stated standards. (So what else is done for the sake of expedience??).

    I do think if the NAWCC is going to claim to value certain priniciples, then it should adhere to those priniciples. Or, it should drop the stated values. IIRC, these are actually in the bylaws.

    The fact that the NAWCC provides a market for the scrapping of gold cases makes it culpable for the destruction of those cases.

    There are at least two ways this disparity can be corrected. One is to remove any language related to preservation. Then those who join or donate because of such statments can make an informed decision as to whether they support the orgnaization under those restated values. Or, the organization can adhere to the stated values and buyers and sellers of scrap can use one of the many alternative markets.

    The NAWCC is trying to have a foot on both sides of the fence.
     
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  26. Tom McIntyre

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    Dewey, I had the same reaction as you to the balance cocks or watch cocks when I first saw them. I thought Charlie Terwilliger must be some kind of monster. I found that his view was very different. He felt there needed to be entry level items of interest to bring people to an appreciation of horology. The fact that many thousands of verge cocks were in storage in the UK was the impetus for the effort. As verges were scrapped, their cocks were removed because they were art in their own right.

    Charlie had the same motivation when he created the novelty clock reproductions. Namely, to create something that would appeal to someone who previously had no interest in horology.

    Charlie also saved the collectible torsion clock segment of horology by developing the NiSpan C version of the 400 day suspension spring and cataloging them for the vast majority of the clocks. Almost everyone considers that a very good thing, but it also resulted in the modification of most of those clocks from their original inferior suspension to the new temperature compensated one. You could argue that the orginality of all those clocks had been lost.

    I believe it is very rare for decisions about scrapping, re-purposing and re-use to be black and white. As you say, it is the role of the NAWCC to establish the standards and norms for our community. I think we do that pretty well. Those who scoff at or decide to flout those norms identify themselves as the fringe of the community by their behavior.

    Courtesy is also one of our group norms. In my opinion, it is the most important one.
     
  27. DeweyC

    DeweyC Registered User
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    Tom,

    I have to disagree with you. As the saying goes: "the road to Hell is paved with good intentions". While Charley's intentions may have been "pure", the fact is that the mere sale of those bridges meant not only destruction, but that the NAWCC condoned such sales. No other way to interpret it. Somone missed the boat on that.

    His reproduction clocks are another matter. Nothing wrong with repro's as long as they are so marked. I gave one of his mouse clocks to my daughter when she was 5.

    But, I was actually referring to the sale of verge watch parts as jewelry in the store after the year 2000.

    Is it your position that Marts should provide a venue for "art" made from 18th century clock parts when it is more profitable to use it that way than as a clock?

    AS I already noted, there are plenty of other venues for such sales, eBay being a major market. The value of the NAWCC is that it purportedly is dedicated to preservation, and that is what provides its status and the "high ground".

    The corporate body should be concerned about the slippery slope here. IMO this topic is not a matter of norms, but concerns the very reason for the organization's existence. To enforce policies at the Mart level is not to deny the rights of anyone. All table holders have agreed to the standards established by the association when they paid their dues. That is the sina qua non of an association.

    It is a fallacy to ignore the effects of the messages other than one intended (introduction to the craft or collecting). Since Charlie was trying to introduce the naive to collecting, there "should" have also been considerable discussion about the interpretation by not only his intended audience, but all people who came into the store. Such is not second guessing, but good management and communication control.

    The message was clear, NAWCC condoned such practices.
     
  28. Tom McIntyre

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    Dewey, I believe that parts that have been separated for a few hundred years will never find their way back to their original purpose. You are mistaken, in my opinion, about what these ancient watch cocks now represent in horology.

    Would you condone picking through baskets of old parts to assemble a new, but apparently old, watch?

    I suspect the community would disapprove of the second activity more than the first.

    The third distinct choice is to throw it all into the post and make some brass stock out of it,.
     
  29. DeweyC

    DeweyC Registered User
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    Tom,

    Huh? These watches ARE a couple hundred years old. I very much doubt they were separated when new. I do not follow your logic.

    Regardless of when they were separated, the message conveyed by their presence in the NAWCC store was in conflict with the associations stated values.

    Tom, like most important discussions, this is not about debate winners or losers. IMO, all good discussions stimulate participants to think.

    If the corporate body acts to either affirm or deny as a result of this discussion, so much the better.
     
  30. Ethan Lipsig

    Ethan Lipsig Registered User
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    At the risk of being wounded by crossfire, I suggest taking a centrist view, which is that while the NAWCC should staunchly support conservation of excellent or important antique timepieces, it should take a more relaxed attitude as to lesser examples, which comprise 90-99.9% of what survives, It is completely unrealistic to expect that every old watch will be preserved.
    It would be a terrible loss if Hamilton 992Bs completely vanished, but that isn't likely to happen even if many thousands are dismantled for parts to keep survivors running. Likewise, it is no great loss to the horological world if battered gold cases with unimportant movements are scrapped. If we value things like these so much, we would be willing to pay enough to make parting them out or scrapping them a losing proposition. Because we don't, it is our own fault that parting and scrapping is inevitable. It isn't the fault of the parters and scrappers. They serve a useful recycling role as long as they aren't destroying excellent or important antique timepieces.

    I do not entirely share the view that one should be able to do what one likes with one's own possessions, e.g., to scrap a case if you want to do that. I don't share that view when the object is part of our shared cultural or historic patrimony. To give an extreme example, if I owned Harrison's H4, should I be allowed to have it buried with me? Of course not.

    If we believe that excellent or important timepieces are being broken up and scrapped in any significant numbers, instead of moaning, we should take steps to protect them, e.g., by buying them for our collections or by assisting scrappers in determining which timepieces should be preserved intact.
     
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  31. Dave Coatsworth

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    #81 Dave Coatsworth, Nov 28, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2018
    No, but I would suggest that they were probably separated decades ago. I buy out watch repairer's estates for my business. You would be surprised how many of these old repairers completely disassembled their parts watches and put all the 4th wheels in one drawer, all the balance cocks in another drawer, etc, etc. They would even take the jewels out of the balance cocks and put those in yet another drawer! I suspect Charlie probably stumbled upon one of these situations and did the only useful thing he could think of with these. Of course, this is pure speculation based only on my experience.
     
  32. DeweyC

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    Actually Dave, I have seen a wide variety of how people did things. That was part of my education into what works or I consider appropriate. First guy I worked with routinely billed for a new center wheel and canon pinion. Then there were the shims.

    I once bought out a bunch of stuff from Joe Balt. Exactly what you describe including maybe a 100 fusee movts with a box of balance bridges. Gave the stuff away.

    Does not matter if the watches were destroyed 200 years ago, decades ago or last week (see ebay). It still leaves the issue before us: the conflict between stated principle and policy vs store sales and Mart acceptance.

    And no one has disputed that there are plenty of venues to bring sellers and buyers together that do not rely on the NAWCC.

    Here is a thought experiment. Would the Mart ad committee accept an ad looking to buy watches explicitly stating the purpose was to break them up for steampunk? My money is on "no".

    And to be clear, I much prefer cases that show their history or have dedications inscribed. Especially the hand engraved GF hunting cases with obvious wear. Both reflect how watches were used.
     
  33. shutterbug

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    It's my understanding that the marts are organized and controlled by NAWCC members, not actually the organization itself. As has been stated before, different marts have different rules. If that understanding is correct, then blaming the organization for what happens at any given mart would be unfair.
     
  34. Tom McIntyre

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    Dewey, just for clarity, I believe most of the watch cocks, if not all, were saved when the watchmakers 200 to 300 years ago scrapped the original movements. Many of them may have only been scrapped 150 years ago. None of them are from watches that survived the 200 years.

    Most of those watchmakers kept the watch cocks because the engraving was nice and they did not take up much space. As the entire industry died off in the 20th century those artifacts showed up at flea markets by the basket load and Charley acquired a quantity of them to mount on cards showing their history. I sincerely believe it was the best possible use that could have been made of them.

    It is a tragedy that you left the NAWCC for 10 years because you were offended by their presence in the gift shop.
     
  35. Jim Haney

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    I can see the reason that Dewey is asking for a policy change of the stated position on preservation, however, in the big picture, who is the NAWCC? He is reading the position statement and seeing that some people are not following it.

    Everyone would like to see the NAWCC have some teeth and monitor the Gold scrapping issue and take some action about someone tearing up good timepieces but it can't and I believe that we should just stick to our stated position and enforce it by an Ethics complaint if we see this going on.

    The Executive Director and the small staff in Columbia is not capable of overseeing these issues.

    The NAWCC is US, the members, and we have to police ourselves and if we see that someone is acting contrary to our mission statement it is up to us to do something about it. We can't sit back and say , the NAWCC isn't enforcing their position on preservation.

    It has been my observation in 25 years of being in the hobby and attending 95% of Regionals, Marts & National's, that there is not a problem in scrapping. People are smart enough to know that good cases bring better than scrap prices.

    The tearing apart of timepieces is a more concerning problem. There are people who make good money parting out timepieces, weather it be for parts for resale or Steampunk Art, and it should be addressed individually. The small staff in Columbia is not able to oversee this and it is up to the members to take care of it.
     
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  36. musicguy

    musicguy Moderator
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    I think that Dewey makes some very valid points in his statements. But I do believe that overall
    this organization works as a real positive promoting Horology(I see it everyday here on the forum and at Marts).
    People here know I dislike scraping(no need to repeat that), but
    it's a very small percentage(as said above) of what goes on at a mart. In my experience(at the three marts I attend regularly) many peoples
    favorite part is the educational presentation at the end. I have to admit I've been to many many museums in my life
    and have never seen real artifacts for sale in their stores(other than maybe some fossils). All things that are for sale
    in museums (I've been in) are reproductions(and marked that way). The people who run
    our local chapters are some of the nicest people I've met in the NAWCC!
    They really go out of their way with their time and effort to make things happen.
    Without the Mart and these people on the local level there would not be an organization.

    Rob
     
  37. DeweyC

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    #87 DeweyC, Nov 30, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2018
    Glad I just made coffee. Lots of replies at once this AM.

    Fascinating. People speaking for others (ED and staff), and seemingly "putting words in my mouth". Never said I wanted change, in fact, I made it pretty clear the goal of any good discussion is to get the discussants to think. All I did is make clear the conflict for NAWCC exists no matter when the timepiece was destroyed.

    My words stand on their own and believe me, there is nothing to "read between the lines". I am not a fan of those who feel books must be "interpreted".

    When I talk about NAWCC, I am referring to NAWCC, Inc. which is not defined by the membership. The membership has no liabilities as a result of paying dues to the Corporation. The Corporation has no control over membership behavior beyond its Constitution, Bylaws and policies (such as membership dispute resolution up to and including expulsion). But members voluntarily agree to abide by those.

    Tom, to reiterate, I did not say and do not believe anyone has say in how another disposes or treats non regulated personal possessions (at least in the US). I do think it is conflict between stated policy and practice for the NAWCC to sell things that are the subject of this discussion in the store. You also seem to dismiss how the message was interpreted by others.

    However, I am glad you think my absence was a loss.

    To make what governs my personal behavior crystal clear, several years ago I returned my Eagle and Vigil Sash to the BSA HQ in Texas. This was because I completely disagreed with their position that a 16-year-old boy should be denied an Eagle because after passing the Review Board, he came to realize his gender ID and followed the values of the organization by being honest. Aside from the fact such was in conflict with the stated value of personal integrity, I thought it incredibly cruel to abandon the boy at the very time he most needed his community. I simply took the position this was wrong. I was not personally offended.

    And because of many people like me, the BSA came to understand alumni did not support their position.

    Likewise, many of us voted with our feet in both the NAWCC and the AWI. The Nawcc membership dropped from almost 40,000 to under 12,00 today. I rejoined NAWCC only after a new team was installed. While it is popular to blame the membership drop on ebay, many will recall the membership division during the 90s over the promotion of the MART as a "dealer" venue as exemplified by the dealer (Burt something:???:) from Texas who started a more or less "personal" Chapter.

    I think how many people left because of ebay and those like me who left because we felt the NAWCC was becoming unmoored from its anchorage is unknowable. Tom, that is why I left NAWCC, because of the conflict between statement and practice, not because something "offended" me. And yes, I let the ED know my reasons in writing.

    AWI is a lost cause. And apparently with a paid subscription ("membership") of under 1000, many ex members agree.

    My value of personal integrity is probably due to the fact that as a researcher your work was measured against your integrity; the consonance between behavior and your words.

    This very issue will decide a legal case in which I have been involved for over a year now. We gave the appellant many opportunities to make statements that we are systematically falsifying by using their own videos posted to facebook (idiots!).

    I know from a private conversation Jim in particular is vexed by my position. Not sure why this would be so. Personally, I have learned everything from others who had positions and experience that differed from mine. That is a requisite to "learning".

    Jim, you provided ample examples of market venues other than the NAWCC for buyers and sellers to meet.

    So, we agree there really is no effect on buyers and sellers if the NAWCC practices the values it publicly espouses. Do not forget, the NAWCC derives public (tax benefits) and private (donations) benefits based on those statements.'

    FWIW, I am trying to figure out how to submit the advertisement I proposed to the Mart without damaging my reputation. All of my customers share my values and many have come from this Board.

    While I may be bemused by all this, I am not "upset". As I told Jim privately, I am old enough to have learned that there are few things worth fretting over; and especially on those few, fretting is an unhelpful distraction.

    Let's just keep learning from and enjoying each other.
     
  38. George Frick

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    Attended the AZ Regional show. A couple observations. Not a single good gold filled 18s case for sale when i went through Friday. Gold buyers had snapped them up by then. I observed them sorting them in the foyer about noon. I support the sellers being able to sell to whomever, but it is sad seeing these cases getting harder to find.
    A well put on show by the local chapters.
    I am surprised at the minimal involvement by NAWCC National. You would think they would help promote the shows as a way to grow membership.
    All NAWCC membership dues go to them. Just my observation.
    Goos job AZ!
     
  39. Kevin W.

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    George i just hope there were not any good cases melted down.
     
  40. Jim Haney

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    George,
    Again a post that can not be supported with fact or pic's, just speculation that the "scrappers" are killing the watch case market?

    Do you subscribe to the Executive Directors newsletter?
    He had a great report on the regional and attendance and is the most positive ED we have had for decades.
    This is a short version of it.

    03.10.19- You are receiving this email as a courtesy of the author, or as a member and friend of the NAWCC. You can also view this Sunday message, with all the pictures, on the NAWCC
    website under the Message Board. Also access former emails. SEE BELOW for more details.



    Getting older is no problem. You just have to live long enough.
    [​IMG]
    - Groucho Marx

    Dear NAWCC Friends and Members:

    Sometimes it feels like that's all we have to do to complete all we want to accomplish not only in life, but many times, just that week: "Just live long enough."

    There are many exciting and encouraging items happening in our community of the NAWCC. Being at the Mid-Winter Florida Regional, the Mesquite Lone Star Regional and this week at the Sunshine Regional really encourages me to see all the hard-working, dedicated volunteers meeting, planning, setting up, moving, engaging, and cleaning up. It makes me weary watching all their energy, enthusiasm, customer facing, and taking the complaints with the compliments and doing it for many years on their feet for many hours and days. Well done to all of you out there! Thank you for making my visits with you beneficial for my understanding and learning more about how HQ can support all your work and your Chapter's efforts. Thank you for what you do in building up and growing our NAWCC community.

    I am finishing up a long week preparing for and presenting at the Board meetings hosted by the Sunshine Regional in Fountain Hills, Arizona on Thursday and Friday. It feels good to have gotten through it all with the budget process, presenting the new website status report, laying out our future development plan and our For All Time Campaign next phase.

    Our HQ team did a stellar job helping to get ready for and presenting with me online at the Board sessions. Our Board members were very encouraged by the reports they heard. In the near future, HQ National will be hosting a Webinar featuring Brian Roy giving the membership an update on the status of the new website, as was presented to the Board on Friday.
    mail?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnawccgifts.org%2Forg_files%2F80%2Falbum%2F80_1552110253883.jpg 2F80_1552149368954.jpg&t=1552230353&ymreqid=ac09015e-e442-6d47-2c1f-a1042d010000&sig=Br8omhUxgil.jpg
    Thanks goes out to Frank Wagner, Bob Schmitt, Frank Faier, and many others who spent the time and effort to make our Board meetings and lunch a very easy and pleasurable process. The turnout for the MART was solid. Many wonderful displays and exhibits, including Tom Lindner's stupendous collection of Dudley watches. Tom also has produced a book on the Dudley watches, "The Masonic Watches of William Wallace Dudley."
    mail?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnawccgifts.org%2Forg_files%2F80%2Falbum%2F80_1552110298024.jpg mail?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnawccgifts.org%2Forg_files%2F80%2Falbum%2F80_1552149461348.jpg
    We also spent some time with Kunal Naik, CEO and Manuel J. Yazijian, Chief Technical Officer of Ameriquartz, FTS USA, who were set up in the MART.
    FTS USA is reputed to be the only commercial source for quartz watch movements made in the United States. This fledgling new player on the watch manufacturing field aims to bring back the watch making industry to the US, making everything here, including the movement and case. Based just outside of Phoenix, we will be “watching” their progress on this ambitious and commendable goal! With Manual in charge of quality and process, as well as hiring and training all technical employees, they have a great shot at achieving their plan.

    By the way, as we finish up our fiscal year of 2018-2019, we would greatly appreciate, with the deadline of April 1st, if you would PLEASE vote and get our membership involvement in the elections up in percentages. Also, our Partners in Time Annual Appeal ends March 31st. We would greatly appreciate any of those in a position to participate, to send in your contributions and donations to make our Appeal deliver a successful, record breaking one.

    While giving is up 27%, there was a very generous and large one time gift last appeal that made it difficult for us to reach that goal again, but the numbers of you all giving to the campaign has been VERY encouraging and GREATLY appreciated. Thank you for supporting our work and efforts as we do our best to raise the bar in results and outcomes for our members and the NAWCC community. Thank you!
     
  41. George Frick

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    Jim, guess i should have taken a picture of the 3 people in the foyer that had dumped out a bag of cases on a round table. I was posting observations. Sorry if i offended you. Have a nice day.
     
  42. Jim Haney

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    George,
    I am sorry you have the impression that I was offended. Not at all, I am just trying to under this hysteria over scrappers.

    If you start at the top of this thread you I hope you can understand that most of the critics on scrapping don't really have any evidence of a "scrapper" taking a perfectly good cases out of circulation. Scrappers serve a purpose, in that, cases that are missing lids or back covers, crushed, dented beyond repair,etc. provide you with some money for an other wise, a worthless thing.

    Case are becoming harder to find because the supply is simply running out. There are more movements on eBay than anyone will ever find cases for so it is easy to say the problem is because of scrappers.

    In our collecting community why would anyone scrap a good case? Why would a scrapper melt a good case, when he can get more for it than scrap value?;)
     
  43. George Frick

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    Thanks Jim, in my post i supported sellers being able to sell to anyone.
    I know what i heard from sellers when i asked about cases and i saw evidence of it out front. I would hope sellers would price a good case above the scrap value.
    I would have paid a good price for a good case but by 10:30am there was not a single great condition 18s gold filled case to be had. It seems like in a few short years good cases available have dried up.
     
  44. shutterbug

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    I would think that most people renting tables know their products' value for the most part. They want the best price they can get for their items, so even if a scrapper approached them with a low ball offer on the first day of the mart, I doubt that they would sell cheap that early. I'm guessing that Jim's inference that what you witnessed was more than likely damaged cases is probably correct.
    I also have a soft spot for old stuff ending up in a furnace or the landfill, but I guess it's a part of the reality of time changing things.
     
  45. Kevin W.

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    And since the price of gold did go up, obviuosly many have no problem in melting down a heirloom or a nice watch. How many cases are there for sale now and how many orphaned movements are out there. I for one am not in this hobby for a dollar value of my gold watches.
     
  46. musicguy

    musicguy Moderator
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  47. Jim Haney

    Jim Haney Registered User
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    George,

    Send me a Private Conservation about what you are looking for.I have been buying nice cases, however, I usually end up buying the watch to get the case. Most of the time they are low grade 7-17J watches and if I see a great watch case with a movement for &100-150, I buy it for the case because a very fine GF case is worth that alone.

    Thanks
     
  48. Dave Coatsworth

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    I find it hard to believe that good quality 18S gold filled cases are being scrapped, at least by anyone but the most ignorant. A typical 18S GF hunter will scrap for about $50. I can easily get twice that to a collector if in good condition. Why would anyone sell to a scrapper for $50 when they can get at least $100 out of it?

    Unfortunately, I do find a lot of GF hunter cases that have been mistreated in life and are not worth any more than scrap. There just aren't that many good GF cases out there.
     
  49. George Frick

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    Good comment Dave. Thanks, george
     
  50. George Frick

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