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Discussion in 'Wrist Watches' started by pierre mannaert, Jun 24, 2017.
Who knows more about this watch
Welcome to the board.
It impossible to say very much (except that the hands are missing) without seeing the movement. Please post a photo of it.
cool watch. I like that locking thing or whatever on the back. Right now, as JTD pointed out, it is a guessing game.
I have seen some extraordinary pocket watches retailed by Marcks, but most of the wrist watches have been rather low end.
This one my be higher grade. Lets hope so. Show us that movement!
I think the back screw needs to be removed to access the stem detent screw so the movement can be removed via the front of the case.-Cort
Its a very cool WW1 so called trench watch.
I agree loosening the screw on the back case will let the stem out and remove movement from the front basically 1 piece case. I never saw that before
The retailer is pretty famous
Cool watch - movement photo may reveal the maker
i go to visit a watchmaker for remove the movement, the movement is in a good working condition !
Sadly you haven't shown any photo(s) of the movement, just the dial and the side of the case. Please post a clear photo of the movement itself.
Interesting, a BORGEL case
Not sure I have seen one with that style.
No patent that I can see.
I believe rare ??
Nice watch. Hey Adam, what's rare about it? Not being difficult, just want learn. Are you talking about the screw thing on the back? The Borel waterproof trench watch is pretty common right?
What is the type of the hands ?sommbody can give me a example
Yes "Borgel" cases are pretty "common" and between him and his daughter we know of all relevant patents.
But I never saw a 1 piece case with a screw to release the stem, that allowed the movement out.
Maybe someone can correct me - but that seems unique to me
I always understood that "trench watch" was a term reserved for a pocket watch converted by the addition of lugs to its case so that straps could be added to wear on the wrist. Are you saying that the term actually means simply a wrist watch which was worn in the trenches in WW1 which I guess then means a wrist watch made during WW1?
I always think of a trench watch as being of that style, wire lugs, made around the WWI period. You do get converted pocket watches of the period but trench watches are how they were made, they are smaller than pocket watches in the main. I have several, most of mine are round but you get square cushion styles too. Cases are either Borgel or accessed through the back. Some have hinged backs and hinged crystals.
Up to about 2 years ago, we always thought the term "Trench Watch" was something used by Ebay sellers for anything with wire lugs.
Indeed I always stated "so termed" trench watch.
Stan Czubarnet while researching for his book Waltham Trench Watches of the Great War came accross true adverts, we now have many such adverts that mention "Trench Watch"
Hence we can now claim watches of a certain style and period as "trench watches"
Here are a few I now own
Actually they are pretty common. They used to be called by collectors "tropical watches" along with some of the early completely encased watches Rolex used that had a screw on bezel. (Of course today the term "tropical watch" means something else entirely.
Not sure I understand
I know the BORGEL case and its patents.
But the OPs watch has a different style completely.
Can you point us to another example with a screw on the back case that releases the stem? Or the patent for that design?
Thanks for the ads, Adam, first time I saw an Ingersoll included as a trench watch.
I guess I misunderstood. My apologies. I thought you meant "Screw-down" cases. As to the screw on the back, something tells me that this an add-on and not original. I have owned a lot of these and we even wrote about in my book "The Best of Time: ROLEX" .
in fact DAvid Boettcher quoted my book in an excellent article published in the NAWCC: http://www.vintagewatchstraps.com/borgel.php
He notes: Rolex found that they were sending many watches to the far reaches of the British Empire. The humid tropical climate soon rusted the movements of watches in conventional cases, so a damp proof case was urgently required. In their book "The Best of Time: Rolex Wristwatches: An Unauthorized History" Jeffrey Hess and James Dowling noted that Rolex produced a small series of watches using the one-piece Borgel screw case in 1922. They remarked that Despite the small number of watches produced in this case style, it is a very important development in Rolex watch design. It was the first model produced by Rolex in which the case was specifically designed to give protection against some of the elements. These Borgel screw case watches were the start of a line of development that would culminate in 1926 in the Rolex Oyster. Just how much involvement did the Borgel Company have in developing the case of the Rolex Oyster? Rolex is famous for keeping its archives secret, so we don't have any direct evidence, but we do have some circumstantial evidence, including the Dowling and Hess information about the 1922 series of Borgel-cased Rolex watches, which shows that the two companies must have had some sort of commercial relationship."
Maybe he could help us figure out if that screw aperture is original or perhaps Cort knows.
Sorry for the misunderstanding.
Yes I know all above very well.
My only point is the screw on the back (method) of removing movement.
If that is indeed original, and I suspect it is - then its a "rare" type of BORGEL case that I never saw, nor seen a relevant patent.
It should be researched, as you can see there is no mention of that style in David Boettcher excellent article
how do you detach the winding stem on a conventional borgel case to remove the movement?
You do not. Its NOT attached to the movement.
Crown only winds the watch, its pin set.
You pull the crown out to unscrew the movement, as stem is NOT attached to movement only the case
ah I see. So as you say then, this isn't a mod. It's the only way to do it if you have this type of movement in a borgel case.
Francois Borgel, his daughter and an employee called Charles Rothen, patented a number of variations to the original case. I have all those "known" patents, but I never saw this style before.
Hence my feeling its "rare" and needs researched
Yes, though I have a number of trench watches I don't have a borgel cased one, I did see this as a very unusual version I had not seen before.
My immediate thought was it is another thing you have to seal, but presumably it is not particularly worse than sealing the pin for setting. Does the normal system have a seal on the crown? I appreciate these were not intended to be waterproof but the point was to keep dust and damp out wasn't it?
There is no seal on the Borgel crown, but they are pretty sealed and termed "sealed"
You should read David Boettcher article, it explains it at best possible way
Thank you, just read that.
Cool , KUDOS to him
NOTE - no mention of that style of case - that is what I mean
that movement is a Ingersoll ?? photo of the stem
Its MIGHTY strange
A Borgel case with an Ingersol movement?
Some may shout "its a modded case, later refit" - but I dont think so, a 1 piece Borgel case without a "pin" setting, and that screw on the back case of OPs, looks too professionally made.
I would love to hear David Boettchers make on it!
can u tell me sometings about the movement ?
The movement is not an Ingersoll. It is Swiss (note the advance/retard on the balance cock). I have seen this method of stem removal several times on modern cheapo watches but not on an old one. I don't know when split stems first appeared but they certainly became the primary solution to removing movements from "tubs".-Cort
I am 100% with you on that, and yes SWISS
But I say again, I never saw a FB cased with screw on back to remove stem
And this is 1 piece style FB case
So very much a mystery (to me)
David Boettcher asks for some pictures he is interested in my watch .
I am curious what its view is.
Pierre Mannaert approached me and asked for my opinion on his watch. The photographs he supplied were very poor so I asked him to supply some better ones. I was not aware of this thread until it was drawn to my attention.
My web site is completely open and keeps me busy enough, but if I have any comments on Mr Mannaert's watch I will post them here. At first glance it is interesting but I don't think it is a "lost link" of any sort.
Regards, David www.vintagewatchstraps.com
Welcome, Mr. Boettcher! Thanks for your analysis.
As an expert in these types of things, what do you think the aperture on the back of the case is? Do you think it is original? My first thought was it was an add-on to facilitate the removal of a not original movement. A modification. Other members think not.
Have you seen such a thing before? I realize it may not be a "missing link" but what is your opinion as to originality.
Thanks for participating!
Thank you, you are most kind.
The case appears to be an original type Borgel screw case with the Borgel Company's FB-key trademark, but it appears from the photographs that it does not have the pin-set that is normal for a Borgel screw case with a split stem, the outer case stem portion of which can be withdrawn to allow the movement to be unscrewed from the case. It seems that the plug in the case back would allow access to a movement setting lever screw so that a conventional stem could be withdrawn or inserted and secured with the movement screwed into the case.
Did the watch leave the factory like this, or has the case been adapted to take a conventional stem set movement replacing the original movement with split stem?
Without examining the case for traces of a pin set it is impossible to say for sure. There might be a witness mark of a filled hole above or below the crown, Mr Mannaert could look for this and let us know. It would be just a small, faint, circle. The inside of the case would also show a mark that would be easier to see because it would be more difficult to polish.
Could the case have been made by the Borgel factory to take a movement with a conventional stem? Yes, of course it could have been. Making a hole in the case back to allow access to the setting lever screw and then fitting this with a removable plug is hardly rocket science.
By the time this watch was made, which I guess was circa 1920, the pin set was very old fashioned. Members of the NAWCC who have read my articles in the Bulletin might recall that Dimier Freres took out a patent for a design of case that had a detent in the stem tube like many American watches for use with negative set movements, so there was some perceived demand for such watches and I have seen a few examples - but only a few.
The Dimier design is less than perfect, the detent mechanism is often missing from extant examples. Making a hole in the case back to allow access to the setting lever screw of a movement with a conventional stem and pull to set movement, and then fitting this with a removable plug, would be an obvious way of fulfilling demand for stem set watches. But this one appears to be a one off, I don't recall ever seeing another. There are no obvious objections to doing this and one has to wonder why it wasn't done. It was most likely because the original Borgel screw case was nearing the end of its life and further development work considered unnecessary - other more modern designs were in the pipeline. It is also quite likely that large stocks of screw cases built up during the Great War were slowly trickling out during the post-war depression.
The cases with the detent in the crown were most likely made specifically for Dimier Freres rather than being something that the Borgel Company initiated. In fact, the Borgel Company continued to make, or at least to sell, the original Borgel screw case with pin set right up until the 1940s.
This watch could perhaps have been made like this to the orders of Marcks & Co. in India, but my suspicion is that it is most likely the work of an Indian craftsman and watch repairer who has altered the original case to take a working stem set movement that he had on hand, most likely taken from a gold case during the depression when many such cases were melted. It would be easy to do. Without more accurate information, and perhaps other examples, it is impossible to say for sure.
Regards, David www.vintagewatchstraps.com
Some new pictures for Adam & David. I hope they are useful .
Thanks, Pierre or the terrific pics of your terrific watch.
While I have owned many of these types of case, I am not a student of them.
But to my eye, the hole looks crude and not original. Or perhaps it has just been manhandled a bit?
What is the number in the dial side of movement under the +
From that we can look up the patent
The inside of the case appears to have a "hole" for pin setting, but not the outside
Lets know the number
Adam, the number is 34482
in the brass ring is a second hole where a pin of te movement in fits to fix it i tink
in the silver box is there i can see the tread ok no rest off welding to see
Sadly and a bit strangely the number does not bring a relevant patent - please check the number.
I am sure from the photos the outer case was never pin set, I also think the screw hole and design are original.
Its just used a brass ring from a pin-set movement, no reason to make a special one, it can not be seen.
I still believe you have something quite unique and original. That outer case has never been modded from pin set!
As David Boettcher said
"But this one appears to be a one off, I don't recall ever seeing another. There are no obvious objections to doing this and one has to wonder why it wasn't done."
Hence my original and current feeling, is the same - this is a rare and unique piece and in my terms a "missing link"
sorry Adam i'm open the watch again en klean it 51482 see the pictures
see also the fixation pin
What IS the NUMBER??
Here is the patent, will study it later - EATING NOW!
it says 51482
Re: MARCKS & co ltd bombay and poona
Basic Translation, and it is to do with winding and setting
DESCRIPTION CH51482SWISS CONFEDERATION
FEDERAL OFFICE OF THE
DISCLOSURE OF INVENTION
N ° 51482
May 1910. 6 s / + h. p. PRINCIPAL PATENT
FOUNTAINER FABRIC OF FONTAINEMELON, Fontainemelon
Reassembly and time setting mechanism.
The object of the invention is a winding and setting mechanism in which the pinion is alternately brought into engagement with the winding pinion and the setting reset by the actuation, In the axial direction, of the winding stem.
An embodiment thereof is shown in plan, in the accompanying drawing.
A is the winding stem on which the winding pinion b, which is held in an inlet c of the plate / ', can rotate freely.
On a square section portion e of the stem a is freely adjusted the sprocket wheel which alternately can be brought into engagement with the pinion b and with a deflection wheel h connected to the timer of the watch.
By communicating with the winding stem, there is a rotary movement about its axis, depending on whether the pinion gear g is engaged with either one, the pinion b and the wheel h will also be moved by a movement of rotation.
The axial displacement of the pinion-casting is obtained by the axial displacement of the winding stem. For this purpose a rocker i is pivoted at 1 on the plate f and is engaged by the curved end m of one of its arms in a groove k of the rod a. The other arm o of the rocker terminates in two beaks pq which are oriented, one towards a notch p 'of one arm r pivoted at s, the other towards a notch qr of a flip-flop t Which is engaged in the groove of the sliding pinion and pivots coaxially with the arm r in s.
A spring u integral with the arm r is curved so that its free end pressing against the rocker t constantly tends to approach, on the one hand, the gears b and g and, on the other hand , The arm r and the spout p.
The respective positions of the members of the mechanism shown in solid lines in the drawing correspond to the position of the winding: the winding stem is pushed fully and the spout p is engaged in the notch p '; The various organs are therefore blocked.
When the rod is then removed in the direction of the arrow v, the rocker i pivots
In 1 and comes to occupy the position i '. In dotted lines, acting by the lug q on the rocker t which pivots in s against the spring u, and causes the pinion-gear g to mesh with the return wheel / ?.
On the other hand, the beak p has abandoned the notch p 'and it is the beak q which ensures locking the organs in the position of the time setting in the notch q'.
The flip-flop i also acts as a flange, as it is sufficient to unscrew the pivot 1 which is formed by a screw so that the winding stem can be dismounted.
- - - Updated - - -
Found, posted patent above
Bye for now
Re: MARCKS & co ltd bombay and poona
Adam thanks vergif me my missing .
i read that te watch can be the original off the borgel case the years matching ,but what now the link with MARCKS& co ltd BOMBAY...
The dial is also from the same years made in email ? en the screw on the bottom .
''I'm going crazy by those watch.
Aanvaarden wat men niet kan veranderen.Pierre
Re: MARCKS & co ltd bombay and poona
what have we learned? that the case is not original? or that it is?