Map of London & St Croix papers in 1761 Henry More London fusee

Discussion in 'European & Other Pocket Watches' started by watchbob, Jul 9, 2019.

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  1. watchbob

    watchbob Registered User
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    Interesting papers in this fusee case - Nothing on back of Map & 1834 & 1839 on back of Wm Owen Jr St Croix paper
    DSC04992.JPG DSC04993.JPG
     
  2. Les harland

    Les harland Registered User

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    I find watch papers interesting because thwy can tell you where a watch has been
    They are also part of a towns history, proving a watch/clock maker was trading there
     
  3. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    The map certainly looks early.
     
  4. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    I too tried a guess at that map, but to no avail, so I took a look at the old maps of London. The one below I think is very near, but the date for the map is 1611. From that my guess now is between 1680 and 1700.
    Though someone on here must know. I had thought of "When did watch papers start to appear, that will not help if the maker copied an older map??

    1-90.jpg
     
  5. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    I think the paper is cut out of an old map. Watchpapers must have appeared soon after pair cases, but initially were probably home made rather than advertising. You still see the home made ones.
     
  6. roughbarked

    roughbarked Registered User

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    Awesome work by all. :)
     
  7. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    I think you are right Nick, the pair case will take us back to the 1700s.
     
  8. Chris Radek

    Chris Radek Registered User
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    I think at the top and right, and a little on the left and lower left, I see a round border or cutting guide on the map.
     
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  9. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    Well spotted, it does indeed appear to be a segment of map printed in a circle.
     
  10. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    Truly well spotted Chris, I missed it too, I think though, the border would look like the paper below. He would want customers and others to see his advertisement.

    watch paper taber.jpg
     
  11. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    It's just a map isn't it? No advertisement
     
  12. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    Maybe we will come across another one?
     
  13. 4thdimension

    4thdimension Registered User

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    I googled Lewisham which appears in the lower right of the map. The result returned was a neighborhood in SW London south of Charing Cross.-Cort
     
  14. watchbob

    watchbob Registered User
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    There is nothing on the back of the map paper - It's not a watchmaker repair paper but a cool item in the watch for a very long time - likely for 200 yrs plus. I've purchased & kept some fusees just because of the watch repair papers. Some show the watch in use for likely a couple generations or more & where is was during it's use as a timepiece.
    Bob
     
  15. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    All of the places on the map are still there. They were villages on the outskirts originally, now they are just parts of London. Not many old buildings survive, a mix of bombing and town planning.
     
  16. Les harland

    Les harland Registered User

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    If you have an address it is worth looking on Google maps and Street View just in case the buildings still exist
    A few buildings have survived WW2 bombing and town planning
    I am not sure which did the most damage to some areas
     
  17. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    Quite a few 18th century, not so much 17th century.
     
  18. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    I agree with the above, and the more we think about it, the more we begin to learn, that the little map in WATCHBOB´s watch could well be over three hundred years old. Looking again at the 1611 map, it was only 55 years later that the great fire took out a large portion of that map on the righthand side, which is still there on this piece of paper. Could it be the original owner had this old map and decided to cut it up to use as a watch paper, a hundred years later??
     
  19. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    That wouldn't explain why there appears to be a printed circle around it the size of a watch paper and no map beyond it. Perhaps you could by small prints of interesting things to make your own watch paper?
     
  20. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    #20 Allan C. Purcell, Jul 11, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2019
    Maybe post ten is correct?? There is a little green spot over Newington Butts, maybe where the watch shop was??
     
  21. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    perhaps where an owner lived.
     
  22. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    Maybe we should be asking more about the hallmarks on the watch case??
     
  23. Les harland

    Les harland Registered User

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    Good thinking Batman
     
  24. watchbob

    watchbob Registered User
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    Here is the picture of the case hallmarks - also the other watch repair paper in the case from 1845 - movement marked Henry More London
    DSC04994.JPG DSC04995.JPG
     
  25. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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  26. John Matthews

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    #26 John Matthews, Jul 12, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2019
    I concur with Nick 1761.

    The case maker is Lewis Masquerier of Brownlee Street Long Acre, London. He registered this mark, his only one recorded in Priestley, with the London assay office on 10 January, 1761. Priestley records known 'broken cases' 1762, 63, 64. However, there are missing London records for the period 1739/58 and there is a Parliamentary Committee Report of 1759 that records Masquerier working previously at Coventry Street, Piccadilly and a case hallmarked for 1759 is attributed from that period. No inormation as to the nature of that mark, but assumed to be the same or similar.

    The watch paper may be from a Cumming who was working in Oxford Street around 1810 (Loomes)

    Henry More is listed as a 'master' working as a watchmaker in Spitalfields, London, who took Jacob Pomarede as an apprentice on 4 November, 1737 (Clockmakers & Watchmakers Apprentice Records).

    It would be good to see pictures of the complete watch ....

    John
     
  27. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    Les you have a gift with words.:rolleyes:
     
  28. watchbob

    watchbob Registered User
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    additional pictures
    DSC05008.JPG DSC05010.JPG
     
  29. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    Henry Moze in Loomes" London 1743 insolvent. We are getting closer.
     
  30. watchbob

    watchbob Registered User
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    also Britten's says Henry Moze Shadd Thames - clock about 1740 & watch 1760
     
  31. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi watchbob,

    The design of the movement fits pretty well with a date of 1761, the 'lace-edge' cock table was fashionable for a short period then and it's a shame that it's suffered somewhat, being quite fragile. The dial does look a little later in date, but there was quite a lot of variation, and it's quite possible that it's original.

    The banking for the balance is probably via two pegs in the potence engaging with the upper and lower verge flags, rather than the later, (and more obtrusive), pin in the balance rim.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  32. Lychnobius

    Lychnobius Registered User

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    The map must be later than 1769, since it shows Blackfriars Bridge which was opened in that year (it is the middle one of the three roads shown crossing the river), but not much later, I would think.

    Where is St. Croix? The only place of that name I can find is an island in the Caribbean, now belonging to the United States but a Danish possession from 1733 to 1916 apart from a single year of British occupation during the Napoleonic wars. Alexander Hamilton lived there as a boy. It would be rather extraordinary, I feel, to find an English-speaking watchmaker in such a remote place: extraordinary but not impossible.

    Oliver Mundy.
     
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