Mainspring repair and research information?

[Eclectic Oddities]

Hello everyone.

I am new to the forums and newish to clock and watch repair. However, I have worked on several mechanical clocks and repair all sorts of antique mechanical objects for a few years including music boxes, toys, adding machines, etc. I have been reviewing the boards for some time when I need information and finally created a account to see if anyone can give me some advise. I have on my bench a few items I some questions about.

First, I have a New Haven 8 day kitchen clock from the "White Star Line". I cannot find much information on this line of clocks. Is there some where I can find information on these? Does this line of clocks have anything to do with the White Star Line of ships?

2nd, the clock has a broken mainspring on the winding arbor side. Is there any safe reasonable way to repair it? Or is a replacement necessary?

3rd, the pallet fork is broken and the piece is missing. I cannot get a proper measurement to get a replacement. It has a 38 tooth escape wheel. How would one go about finding the proper size? I can do small adjustments but prefer to purchase a pre-formed fork.

4th, I have a pocket watch hunters case. I am sure this question is best asked over in the watch section but... I'm new. How does one go about the removal of the hinge pin on the case? There is some slight rust and deep scratches I would like to take care of.

Lastly, I have a Elgin pocket watch serial# 14910169. One of the jewel screws on the balance cock is missing (wasn't me, jewel appears great). I have no way to check the thread size to order a replacement and am having difficulty searching for it. How would I go about getting a replacement?

 

[R. Croswell]

Can you please post pictures of the kitchen clock and the broken spring? I would not expect a New Have kitchen clock to have a pallet fork, at lrast not by that name, so pictures will let us know just you are working on.

 

[bikerclockguy]

Hello everyone.

I am new to the forums and newish to clock and watch repair. However, I have worked on several mechanical clocks and repair all sorts of antique mechanical objects for a few years including music boxes, toys, adding machines, etc. I have been reviewing the boards for some time when I need information and finally created a account to see if anyone can give me some advise. I have on my bench a few items I some questions about.

First, I have a New Haven 8 day kitchen clock from the "White Star Line". I cannot find much information on this line of clocks. Is there some where I can find information on these? Does this line of clocks have anything to do with the White Star Line of ships?

2nd, the clock has a broken mainspring on the winding arbor side. Is there any safe reasonable way to repair it? Or is a replacement necessary?

3rd, the pallet fork is broken and the piece is missing. I cannot get a proper measurement to get a replacement. It has a 38 tooth escape wheel. How would one go about finding the proper size? I can do small adjustments but prefer to purchase a pre-formed fork.

4th, I have a pocket watch hunters case. I am sure this question is best asked over in the watch section but... I'm new. How does one go about the removal of the hinge pin on the case? There is some slight rust and deep scratches I would like to take care of.

Lastly, I have a Elgin pocket watch serial# 14910169. One of the jewel screws on the balance cock is missing (wasn't me, jewel appears great). I have no way to check the thread size to order a replacement and am having difficulty searching for it. How would I go about getting a replacement?

Timesavers has a recoil verge that comes with a crutch rod, and you have to widen or narrrow the gap to the appropriate distance. There are tutorials here on the message board on how to do that, including calculating the distance between pallets. I don’t remember exactly where, but do a Google search on “making a verge”: and you will find a reference to it(the search feature doesn‘t work too well on the message board). Edit: If it’s just the crutch rod you need, you can buy those from Timesavers as well, but you have cut ti length and make your own loop.

 

[Eclectic Oddities]

Thanks for the response.

Eh. Pallet fork, verge pallet, verge fork, verge. Same thing IMO. Obviously, it is not broken in this picture.

I do not have a picture of the clocks cabinet at the moment.

 

[roughbarked]

The most difficult part of the spring to do any blacksmithing with, is the place where the red arrow goes..

The watch stuff should probably go in the watch repair or watch parts wanted thread.
The hinge pin usually pushes out with an appropriately sized punch but you may need to file the rivet off the end you are going to push through before you attempt to push it.

 

[wow]

There are two winding arbors. Are you talking about the time train or the strike train? Pallet fork is not a term that is normally used when dealing with a kitchen clock. We need photos that show us details.
Mainsprings can be repaired but it depends on where they are broken.
Well you posted photos as I was posting.

That mainspring would be difficult to repair since it is broken in the center. A new one would be much easier.
Timesavers sells several verges that you may be able to use.

 

[roughbarked]

There are two winding arbors. Are you talking about the time train or the strike train? Pallet fork is not a term that is normally used when dealing with a kitchen clock. We need photos that show us details.
Mainsprings can be repaired but it depends on where they are broken.

^
^
Look up.

But is this actually broken?

Is the eye broken out or does it simply slip on the arbor?

 

[wow]

^
^
Look up.

I think we all posted about the same time.

 

[roughbarked]

I think we all posted about the same time.

Close enough.

 

[R. Croswell]

Thanks for the response.

Eh. Pallet fork, verge pallet, verge fork, verge. Same thing IMO. Obviously, it is not broken in this picture.

I do not have a picture of the clocks cabinet at the moment.

View attachment 754947 View attachment 754948

Typical kitchen clock with recoil strip pallets. Most people refer to the strip pallet set as the "verge". Technically it isn't a verge at all, which is something found in a verge & crown wheel escapement. I think of a pallet fork as something found in a hairspring and balance wheel escapement. Seems clock people have several words for almost everything. You say the verge is not broken in this picture. Perhaps I shouldn't ask, but just in case you didn't find out the hard way, these things are hardened and will snap unless annealed before making adjustments.

If the spring is actually broken at the inner coil, I agree with what has already been said, don't try to repair it. My first clock (c. 1967) had a broken spring at the inner coil. I fixed it (no one was there to tell me it can't be done), but never again.

The verges from Timesavers will need final fitting and polishing before they will work properly. Steve Conover's book, "Clock Repair Basics" and others explain how to adjust a recoil strip pallet verge.

Don't know anything about watches.

RC

 

[Eclectic Oddities]

It is slipping on the winding arbor of the time side. I am not sure which spring it was off hand. One or the other.

It appears to have had this issue for some time. It appears it has been bent over several times, it is all scratched up and will no longer hold its shape. Possibly has been repaired once before.

For the verge I take responsibility for that damage. It needed some bushings and I broke it. I dropped it on the floor and it broke.

 

[roughbarked]

Hmm. By broke, how do you mean broke and coould you show pictures? Maybe it is fixable.
As for the mainspring, it likely can still be fixed. Try to do it with less scratching though. losing shape isn't the worst part. The 'no longer can', that is the part that may be worrying, does it have metal fatigue?

 

[Eclectic Oddities]

Typical kitchen clock with recoil strip pallets. Most people refer to the strip pallet set as the "verge". Technically it isn't a verge at all, which is something found in a verge & crown wheel escapement. I think of a pallet fork as something found in a hairspring and balance wheel escapement. Seems clock people have several words for almost everything. You say the verge is not broken in this picture. Perhaps I shouldn't ask, but just in case you didn't find out the hard way, these things are hardened and will snap unless annealed before making adjustments.

If the spring is actually broken at the inner coil, I agree with what has already been said, don't try to repair it. My first clock (c. 1967) had a broken spring at the inner coil. I fixed it (no one was there to tell me it can't be done), but never again.

The verges from Timesavers will need final fitting and polishing before they will work properly. Steve Conover's book, "Clock Repair Basics" and others explain how to adjust a recoil strip pallet verge.

Don't know anything about watches.

RC

I did not learn the hard way. I knew it was hardened. I was a pipefitter/welder for 20+ years and metal is the one thing I know very well. The verge or strip pallet had a pit. I sharpened it on my diamond hone and flattened it out. It needed some bushes. I dropped it after installing a bushing on one side and it broke on my concrete floor.

 

[Eclectic Oddities]

Hmm. By broke, how do you mean broke and coould you show pictures? Maybe it is fixable.
As for the mainspring, it likely can still be fixed. Try to do it with less scratching though. losing shape isn't the worst part. The 'no longer can', that is the part that may be worrying, does it have metal fatigue?

Unfortunately, it is not fixable without a tig welder and some hard facing rod. Then it would still be a sketchy fix. I cannot snap a photo, as of now. Also, I already harvested some of the brass for other projects and it is missing a large section of the broken... fork?, which I did not bother to go look for.

Anyways. Thanks everyone for the help and advice. As I previously stated, I have been browsing around here for some time and finally decided to create a account. I currently have about 10-15 mechanical clocks on my bench. Most just need a good cleaning.

 

[R. Croswell]

It is slipping on the winding arbor of the time side. I am not sure which spring it was off hand. One or the other.

It appears to have had this issue for some time. It appears it has been bent over several times, it is all scratched up and will no longer hold its shape. Possibly has been repaired once before.

If it has been bent over several times and is all scratched up I would replace it.

Frequently failing to hook up is not the fault of the spring, but a worn or rounded off pin on the arbor. The leading edge should be slightly under cut to "suck" the spring in and pull it toward the arbor. The trailing edge should slope upward from the arbor toward the leading edge. And the pin needs to be long enough to go through thew the hole in the spring, not just go into the hole. Finally, something often overlooked, There must be some space between the first coil of the spring and the second coil of the spring. If the second coil is flat against the first coil the pin cannot go through the hole far enough to catch.

RC

 

[Eclectic Oddities]

If it has been bent over several times and is all scratched up I would replace it.

Frequently failing to hook up is not the fault of the spring, but a worn or rounded off pin on the arbor. The leading edge should be slightly under cut to "suck" the spring in and pull it toward the arbor. The trailing edge should slope upward from the arbor toward the leading edge. And the pin needs to be long enough to go through thew the hole in the spring, not just go into the hole. Finally, something often overlooked, There must be some space between the first coil of the spring and the second coil of the spring. If the second coil is flat against the first coil the pin cannot go through the hole far enough to catch.

RC

Ahh. Yes good call. Over looked the undercut. When I pull it back apart I will take a look. Pin is long enough and appeared in good shape. I will buy a replacement spring and check the arbor.

I may test to see if I can repair the original spring. The entire spring, I think, will be best entirety annealed, repaired, hardened and tempered. To see what happens.

 

[R. Croswell]

I may test to see if I can repair the original spring. The entire spring, I think, will be best entirety annealed, repaired, hardened and tempered. To see what happens.

Let us know what happens.

Ordinarily, the spring would need to be heated uniformly in a temperature controlled furnace to the annealing temperature and the furnace turned off and left to cool overnight. It would again be heated in the furnace to the required temperature for hardening according to the alloy of the steel and allowed to soak the to obtain a uniform temperature and quenched, usually in oil depending on if it is oil, air, or water hardening steel. Tempering again is best done in a temperature controlled furnace at the correct temperature. I'm afraid that attempting to do the entire spring by eye could result in a bunch of pieces when you wind it. It is sometimes possible to "pull out" the inner coils and cut off an inch or so, anneal just the end and cut a new hole and reshape the coils. Hardly worth the trouble if you ask me.

 

[Eclectic Oddities]

Let us know what happens.

Ordinarily, the spring would need to be heated uniformly in a temperature controlled furnace to the annealing temperature and the furnace turned off and left to cool overnight. It would again be heated in the furnace to the required temperature for hardening according to the alloy of the steel and allowed to soak the to obtain a uniform temperature and quenched, usually in oil depending on if it is oil, air, or water hardening steel. Tempering again is best done in a temperature controlled furnace at the correct temperature. I'm afraid that attempting to do the entire spring by eye could result in a bunch of pieces when you wind it. It is sometimes possible to "pull out" the inner coils and cut off an inch or so, anneal just the end and cut a new hole and reshape the coils. Hardly worth the trouble if you ask me.

Usually something like this would be oil hardened. But it is hard to say.

Yes. Heating uniform would be a issue, and not worth it at all. However the knowledge learned would be, IMO. If hardened not uniform, as long as the temper is fair, I dont think it would shatter, or have catastrophic failure. But that's why one tests.

 

[roughbarked]

Most of us who have been around for a while, have seen a lot of short pieces of mainspring inside the barrel upon opening.

 

[R. Croswell]

Most of us who have been around for a while, have seen a lot of short pieces of mainspring inside the barrel upon opening.

Main springs can have a mind of their own. Never let your guard down.