M. I. Tobias

B

Barry G

Hello, Mr. NOT!

Can you post a picture of the signature? It's possible that what you think is "M.I. Tobias" is what the rest of us consider "M.J. Tobias".

Barry

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My Online Pocket Watch Collection
 

Jerry Treiman

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It sounds like your watch is Swiss made, with a nice dial, that was marked to make people believe it was made or sold by Tobias. As we have learned, the Tobias firm in Liverpool had nothing to do with these watches. Nevertheless, many of these Swiss watches are beautiful and well made (and some are not as well made) and are an interesting example of marketing practices in the 1800's. We do not discuss values on this message board.

(For those coming in late, NOT has referred to the following thread. My pictures, on the second page, include a Tobias 2nd quality "Wm.Robinson" grade with a gold dial
http://www.nawcc.org/ubb/Forum3/HTML/001731.html )

[This message has been edited by Jerry Treiman (edited 04-05-2002).]
 

xylo

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Jerry,

I'm starting to get a little confused on the Tobias watches, since I have a Wm. Robinson fusee that looks very much like your Tobias "Lord Street", with the exception that my Robinson doesn't have the center wheel jeweling.

Since the "Lord Street" was the Tobias's top of the line movement, wouldn't this Robinson example be next in line in regards to grade or quality?

1) This particular movement has 13 jewels.

2) Massey type III roller.

3) Blued steel & gold balance wheel.

4) Dial is 44mm and exactly like the one on your Tobias.

5) Has No. 3940 on half-plate.

The images on the left are my Wm. Robinson, on the right are yours.

http://home.fn.net/~bishop/images/wmr.jpg   http://home.fn.net/~bishop/images/treiman.jpg


http://home.fn.net/~bishop/images/wmr2.jpg   http://home.fn.net/~bishop/images/treiman2.jpg

This is a real sharp & clean movement that also runs very well.



[This message has been edited by xylo (edited 04-06-2002).]
 

Jerry Treiman

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Aaack! Don't call it "Bond Street" -- that was one of Waltham's cheaper watches. That reaction aside, your Robinson is a nice watch! Does it still have the dust cover? As Michael Edidin points out in his articles on Tobias, the "Wm. Robinson" was their second-grade of watch - second to the "Lord Street" grade. Tobias manufactured both grades in the full-plate style (I think Barry showed us a nice full-plate Lord Street) and the half-plate (like your Robinson and my Lord Street). Mr. Edidin shows a Wm. Robinson 1/2-plate (#6417) that is much like yours, but with a mono-metallic balance. His and yours, both, have rather limited engraving, as opposed to the Lord Street grade which was finished a little nicer. I do not know if the Lord Street was mechanically better. I might have guessed the Lord Street was more fully jeweled, but my full-plate Robinson has 17 jewels (although no center jewel).
 

xylo

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Jan 6, 2002
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Jerry,

I think your Tobias "Lord Street" and my Wm. Robinson are of the same design, yours being higher in quality than mine in jewel count.

I don't imagine that there would have been any need for more than 17 jewels on a fusee.

What date do you put on your "Lord Street"?

Yes, mine has the swing-out dust cover like yours with the hinge and catch located in the same positions.

I tried to put up four images, but, I guess I'm doing something wrong.
 

Jerry Treiman

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Mr. Edidin estimated that my Lord Street (#13,100) was made around 1829 or 1830. When I corresponded with him in 1992 he was of the opinion that the Wm.Robinson movements were not numbered in sequence with the M.I.Tobias movements, so a lower serial number on your Robinson does not necessarily mean it is older than my movement. For instance, he put my Robinson (#11,318) somewhere in the 1840's.
 

Tom McIntyre

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xylo, your image posting is:

http: //home.fn.net/~bishop/images/wmr.jpg[ /img ] [ img ]

The tags are out of order. The [ img ] goes ahead of the url and the [ /img ] goes after it. You and the moderator are the only ones that can save edits to your posting, so I can't fix it for you.

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Tom McIntyre
Past President, NAWCC Chapters 174 and 87
Member Chapters 8, 87, 149, and 174
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xylo

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Jan 6, 2002
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Tom,

If you click on the edit icon on my post, you will be able to view my text for this post.

The https://mb.nawcc.org/ are located in the right places.

Don't know what's happening, maybe you can tell me.
 

Kent

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I'm not sure why it didn't work before, but here are xylo's images:

1.jpg 1.jpg


1.jpg 1.jpg

[This message has been edited by Kent (edited 04-06-2002).]
 

xylo

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Jan 6, 2002
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Thanks Kent, I knew I had them right.

The ones (Tobias) on the right are in reverse order. Hope it's not too confusing to figure out which ones are which.

As you can see, the differences are very minor.

From the information offered to date, I come up with three grades for the real Tobias watches:

1). "Lord Street"

2). "M.I. Tobias & Co."

3). "Wm. Robinson"

Was there ever just a plain marked "M.I. Tobias", without the "& Co," after the name,
or any other grade of movement?
 

Tom McIntyre

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On the image posting if you right click on the little red x you will see what the browser thinks it is seeing.

I suspect the problem is that the mb software cannot parse your tags properly because they are run together. The mb also breaks long lines and that will get you if you try to put 2 big urls on one line to make the pics side by side.


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Tom McIntyre
Past President, NAWCC Chapters 174 and 87
Member Chapters 8, 87, 149, and 174
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R

Robert T. Raucher

Hi...I have an M.I. Tobias (not M.J.) 18kt Gold Pocketwatch with the unusual "marking" of 31 Minorities London on the movement (#5953). My understanding is there were very few made with this "marking"..and some quite spirited discussion have ensued, mostly in England, that such a movement "marking" does not exist. It does. Comments welcome. Robert
 

John Pavlik

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Robert

Usually the 31 Minorities address was for M.I.'s uncle, Morris Tobias. I have several watches and movements so marked. I believe Morris was at this address from the 1820's until his death in the late 1840's. He also worked with a cousin for a few years with the name Levitt. Dates are from memory but could check them for sure....Post a picture if you can. Morris made higher quality watches I believe..but not very many...

Regards,
John

PS I am still looking for that mainspring for you..I have an empty barrel, now just find the spring....
 

xylo

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Jan 6, 2002
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I would be very interested to see a scan or digital of this movement and the case halmarks as well.

I vaguely remember reading of this particular address on an M. I. Tobias somewhere, but cannot recall where. ( Could have been in an eBay ad).
 

Jerry Treiman

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Just a small correction - the street name is "Minories". Michael Edidin included copies of some nice old London maps showing the various addresses where the Tobias family had their shops.
 
R

Robert T. Raucher

Hello again. To Jerry Treiman..I stand corrected..it is Minories. To Xylo Mercer book "Chronometer Makers of the world" has that 31 Minories address listed under Tobias. To Fuseez..I STILL need a proper sized Barrel & mainspring fo my M.I. Tobias. My repair person is Paul at "Fathertime". He has the exact measurements needed email contact is fathertime@sunset.net Anyone reading this can help by contacting him. As to Pictures...I do not have the equipment to send it through cyberspace, nor the knowlege. Thanks for all the latest input. It is appreciated of this list. Robert Chico, Calif. email rraucher@maxinet.com
 

PapaLouies

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Jerry
Tobias most often never jeweled the fusee pillar plate arbor, although there is a price list in 1842 and 1843 showing an expensive
watch with 5 paris extra. I do have a M. I. TOBIAS & Co. movement with a steel sleeve in that location.
 

Jim Haney

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PapaLouies,
You have posted to a very old thread and we now have seperate forums for European watches, so I am moving this to that forum.
Thanks
 

PapaLouies

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PapaLouies,
You have posted to a very old thread and we now have seperate forums for European watches, so I am moving this to that forum.
Thanks
Jim, which post # and how do I get to the European forum?
 

Jim Haney

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When you click on WATCHES you will see 5 sub-forums,

American, Newest Acquiistions, European, Wrist, Repairs.
.
You are already in the European Forum when you posted to this.

Thanks
 

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