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M.I. Tobias & Co. #31484

PapaLouies

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This M. I. Tobias & Co. #31484 is 15 (Lancashire) and a complete watch with Massey II escapement, bi-metallic balance and blued mean time screws.
The outer rim of the balance is apparently of an un-typical alloy because it's color is closer to butter than brass. The gilding is so rich that except for texture it is indistinguishable from the 18K gold case. The case, dial and movement are in flawless condition. The case is marked with a B, maker unknown, and made by or for Bailey & Kitchen, Philadelphia, 1832-1846. The watch was produced by George Wolf Tobias as early as 1844 and had to be ordered before 1846 when Bailey & Kitchen became Bailey & Co.

Michael Edidin's graph of Production/sales history of M.I. Tobias & Co. first- grade watches puts the date C. 1843.

I recorded the following information from Pigot's Commercial Directory for 1818-19-20 from the net but unfortunately it's recently been removed.

J. Pigot's 3rd Edition.
The Commercial Directory for 1818-19-20.
LIVERPOOL.
Watch and Clock Makers.
Tobias M.J. and Co. 16 Lord Street.

It's likely this is the source of the miss-read of M.I. Tobias & Co.

For those who are interested in M.I. Tobias & Co., please read Michael Edidin's article at John Cote Post #10 at Thread: Is this a good deal?

Regards,

PL

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Keith R...

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Nice one PL, that's the earliest split compensated balance wheel I've seen, if 1843. Another Massey II.
Any case hallmarks or just 18k & crown? Keith
 

gmorse

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Hi Keith,

This pattern of cut compensated balance with screws for adjustment (which became the standard for the next 100 years or so) was devised by Robert Pennington in the very early years of the century. I have an 1825 Massey V with this type of balance, and I've seen an 1810 example.

Regards,

Graham
 

Lychnobius

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A most enviable item! Apart from the other special features pointed out by Keith and Graham, it has a very early example of a recessed seconds dial. In most British enamel-dial watches until about 1860 the seconds panel is flush with the rest of the dial - an arrangement which allows all too readily for collisions between the second hand and one of the others.

Oliver Mundy.
 
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Keith R...

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Yes I am not questioning the balance, I'm merely stating it is an early application for the
MI Tobias watches I have studied, that found their way to US shores in the 1840's. My
earliest split compensated balance watches are my two Chas Frodsham's, from 56 & 57.
So I'm saying it is a higher grade of time keeper with the split compensated balance for
the times and what was being exported. Perhaps it had a military application or for a
ships captain. Keith
 

PapaLouies

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I should have said, a follow-up statement by Michael Edidin to his Bulletin articles at John Cote's Post #10 at Thread:
Is this a good deal?

Regards,

PL
 

MartyR

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Yes I am not questioning the balance, I'm merely stating it is an early application for the MI Tobias watches I have studied, that found their way to US shores in the 1840's. My earliest split compensated balance watches are my two Chas Frodsham's, from 56 & 57.
My earliest is by Arnold & Dent dated 1836. Of course A & D were known as an innovative firm, so maybe it shouldn't be a surprise!
 

jboger

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How do you know B&K on the dial points exclusively to Bailey & Kitchen?
 

John Matthews

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I tried to find the Michael Edidin's original post that John Cote quoted in this link. I failed to do so. Given the date that John Cote quotes, 20 January 2002, I expected to find it in this thread and this post appears in indicate that he may have posted to the thread. My question, which John Cote or Tom McIntyre may be able to answer, was it in another thread or has the post been deleted?

John
 

Allan C. Purcell

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Over the years I have used this Forum ( thread) "European & Other Pocket Watches" I found and felt that those who use it in the main are looking for information, which in turn leads to research. The depth of research (Questions), can go from "My grandfather's Clock or Watch" down to "Why do people want to know when the transit of Venus takes place, and where is it best seen" The information on this thread alone is immense. When looking for this information we sometimes find that the information is no longer there, which leads to disappointment, and a feeling of being let down. The loss of this research, whether right or wrong is not deliberate, though I do feel more care could be taken.

Just a thought,

Allan
 
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PapaLouies

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I tried to find the Michael Edidin's original post that John Cote quoted in this link. I failed to do so. Given the date that John Cote quotes, 20 January 2002, I expected to find it in this thread and this post appears in indicate that he may have posted to the thread. My question, which John Cote or Tom McIntyre may be able to answer, was it in another thread or has the post been deleted?

John
I think your looking for post #10 in the following thread.
P/L
 

Steven Thornberry

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This is simply a link to the same thread and post that you provided in post #14 above. What John Mathews is seeking is the original post by Michael Edidin which John Cote quoted. In the early days of the message board, members were able to delete their own posts. Some members, upon leaving the message board, did just that, leaving some threads looking a bit like Swiss cheese. I suspect that this may have happened to Michael Edidin's original post. That said, there is currently a Michael Edidin on the message board who joined in 2009, likely the same person whose post is under discussion.
 

John Cote

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A lot of water has gone under the bridge since I posted that quote. I have no memory of where I saw it. I am not even sure it was a post. Perhaps it was the text of an email sent at that point in time. I wish I could be of more help.
 
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