Lyre, lyre...

[Deco10]

Hi all,

I am in the process of refurbishing a Seth Thomas lyre movement, though I believe it is older than what I have been able to find in my research. There are some missing pieces, and I feel a little guidance or links to other threads would help a lot. Thanks in advance.

Currently I only have it assembled for diagnostic purposes. The springs are not installed, and the suspension has not yet been addressed. The obvious missing pieces are the fly and what would normally be called the warning wheel, though I believe it is different on this model. The warning pin can be seen on a different wheel than expected, so I could use some help on what I should look for in a replacement. Is this indeed an earlier design, less commonly used now?

Also, any description of the 8-studded wheel would be useful. I see how it operates the hammer tail (every 15 minutes?), but I have not yet determined how the count wheel is supposed to behave.

If there is a model name or number I should research to help with the anatomy, I would be greatly appreciative to learn that. It will be a beautiful piece when completed, but I hope to avoid any Frankenclock scenarios- I want to get it correct.

Thanks again for the wisdom and advice.

Best wishes, Nate

 

[TooManyClocks]

Hi all,

I am in the process of refurbishing a Seth Thomas lyre movement, though I believe it is older than what I have been able to find in my research. There are some missing pieces, and I feel a little guidance or links to other threads would help a lot. Thanks in advance.

Currently I only have it assembled for diagnostic purposes. The springs are not installed, and the suspension has not yet been addressed. The obvious missing pieces are the fly and what would normally be called the warning wheel, though I believe it is different on this model. The warning pin can be seen on a different wheel than expected, so I could use some help on what I should look for in a replacement. Is this indeed an earlier design, less commonly used now?

Also, any description of the 8-studded wheel would be useful. I see how it operates the hammer tail (every 15 minutes?), but I have not yet determined how the count wheel is supposed to behave.

If there is a model name or number I should research to help with the anatomy, I would be greatly appreciative to learn that. It will be a beautiful piece when completed, but I hope to avoid any Frankenclock scenarios- I want to get it correct.

Thanks again for the wisdom and advice.

Best wishes, Nate

View attachment 683668 View attachment 683670

You are missing two gears on the strike side—the 2nd wheel is missing—and the 3rd wheel is where the second wheel belongs. Compare to the photos of my un-rebuilt but running copy.

Normally, as i recall, the warning pin is on the fly arbor. The wheel with the multiple pins is for the strike lever to hit to strike each hour on the gong, with the actual hour count regulated by the countwheel (missing 2nd wheel)

For what it’s worth, your movement is stamped Thomaston, which places it 1865 or later. Mine is stamped Plymouth Hollow on the case label and the movement, which places it somewhere pre-1865.

John

Edit: i just noticed there is a variation on the time side gear arbor placement with mine, (of course mine is weight driven and yours is spring driven) but the strike side would still be the same arrangement—and you do have two gears missing. If i’m wrong, others with more knowledge will come along and correct me

 

[Jim Hartog]

Hello Nate, John,

Nate's is a 30 hour. The "count wheel" is the S1 with pins? Note the spacing of the pins. He is missing S3 and S4 (fly). Gears are not in the wrong positions.

John's is an eight day with a regular count wheel.

I think any comparison is unjustified.

Tran has a picture of a 30 hour lyre on page 981 of his Seth Thomas Clocks & Movements but I could not find anything on eBay.com and Google Images didn't have much either. Seems to be a rare bird. Parts may be tough to find.

Nate: look for a picture of a 30 hour lyre somewhere (I didn't look too hard).

Shiny! You polished that thing. Looks better than it did coming out of the factory. Nice job.

Jim

 

[Willie X]

One thing in your favor, they made a lot of these. You could look for the individual parts but I would recommend looking for a complete movement. Willie X

 

[TooManyClocks]

Hello Nate, John,

Nate's is a 30 hour. The "count wheel" is the S1 with pins? Note the spacing of the pins. He is missing S3 and S4 (fly). Gears are not in the wrong positions.

John's is an eight day with a regular count wheel.

I think any comparison is unjustified.

Tran has a picture of a 30 hour lyre on page 981 of his Seth Thomas Clocks & Movements but I could not find anything on eBay.com and Google Images didn't have much either. Seems to be a rare bird. Parts may be tough to find.

Nate: look for a picture of a 30 hour lyre somewhere (I didn't look too hard).

Shiny! You polished that thing. Looks better than it did coming out of the factory. Nice job.

Jim

I’m just a hobbyist trying to limit myself to jumping in when i’m reasonably certain of what I know. Several 30 hour and a lot of eight day movements have been torn apart and rebuilt here, and apparently the variations got mixed up in my head!

Ah, well….my apologies to the OP for the errors….didn’t mean to scare him into thinking he had even more problems when he didn’t!

John

And thank you Jim, for pointing out the correct information!

 

[Deco10]

I’m just a hobbyist trying to limit myself to jumping in when i’m reasonably certain of what I know. Several 30 hour and a lot of eight day movements have been torn apart and rebuilt here, and apparently the variations got mixed up in my head!

Ah, well….my apologies to the OP for the errors….didn’t mean to scare him into thinking he had even more problems when he didn’t!

John

And thank you Jim, for pointing out the correct information!

Oh John, don't worry about a thing! Each one of these things is a mystery wrapped in a riddle inside an enigma! I am appreciative of the insight and support from all who have helped.

I do not have Tran's book showing this movement, unfortunately, so I will continue to research this movement. I would like to find a drawing or a movement showing the proper layout and dimensions of the missing wheel and fly. The warning pin is indeed on S2 (?), where it makes contact with the warning lever. I am hoping to see how the missing wheel- S3- meshes with S2, as well as the dimensions and tooth count.

What I call the "count wheel" has the incrementally-spaced pegs that contact a J-shaped lever. In this configuration, will chiming continue until this lever makes contact with the following peg?

Lastly, the plate distance is 1.5" on this movement, so most of my small collection of replacement parts are not useful. Regardless, I am not deterred.

Thanks to all.

Nate

 

[TooManyClocks]

Hi

I’ll tell you what I know to be generally true on American count-wheel strike movements….there are variations. Also, the photos attached to this post are a New Haven 30 hour from roughly the same era. Different movement, different manufacturer, and the various means of controlling the strike can and will be on different wheels (cam slot, warning pin and/or stop pin, etc. Sometimes the warning pin does double duty as the stop pin, depending on design of the movement. On some movements, there is no stop pin….when the lever drops into the cam slot, the count wheel lever drops and the strike stops. These are most of the variations I can think of, but all of them control the strike in essentially the same way.

It doesn’t matter where the pieces are on your movement. Each manufacturer had their own way, and even that varied over time, but they all accomplish the same thing.

This movement has the count wheel on the mainspring gear arbor (S1). The next gear, (S2) has the pins that move the strike lever rod against the gong or bell. The third wheel (S3) has the maintenance cam shown below in the second photo below. When the lever drops into the cam at the end of the strike, the next lever holding this lever plus the warning pin held up as well drops down, the countwheel goes into the next deep slot, the stop pin is engaged, and the strike sequence ends.

I think that was what you were asking about. Your movement‘s strike gears, levers, etc will do the same with some variations in how it gets there and where things are in the train.

After typing that, it would probably be more helpful to read the Count Wheel Basics article in this forum if you’re not familiar with how they function.

https://mb.nawcc.org/wiki/Encyclopedia-Subjects/Clock-Repair/Count-Wheel-Basics

It is generic in a sense, covering all movements, but is thorough. One thing is true, though. If you don’t know what each gear/cam/pin/lever does and why, assembling the strike train and having it work properly is a shot in the dark, especially if you need to split the plates a little to move a gear one or two teeth to get the various functions in time with each other….

what Willie said is probably your best option. Find another movement like yours on Ebay, someone else’s bone pile , or wherever for the parts you need. If you can’t find it now, just keep checking.

Good luck!

John

The photos below are for generic reference! Your movement when complete will have most or all of what’s here

 

[jimlas53]

I am currently working on the same type movement, that is, it uses only pins, no count wheel with slots or maintenance cam. This movement had been "repaired" by someone who soldered two of the lantern pinions - and the trundles - to the arbors, destroyed the fly and used something like vise-grips on the suspension spring post. I have fabricated a new fly using the original lantern pinion parts with new trundles, replaced the damaged post, and installed bushings. I am in need of a bit of information regarding the correct timing relationships of the pinned wheels to each other and the 3 levers on the single strike arbor.
Nate, I can provide information on the fly and S3 if you still need it.
Doug

 

[shutterbug]

We need some pictures, jimlas.

 

[jimlas53]

 

[jimlas53]

I have not seen this style - but I am a novice, to be sure. My experience has been with the slotted strike wheel type of movements. The movement is marked Plymouth, the case label (what remains of it ) says Thomaston. So does that indicate post- 1865?

 

[captainclock]

View attachment 687466

I have not seen this style - but I am a novice, to be sure. My experience has been with the slotted strike wheel type of movements. The movement is marked Plymouth, the case label (what remains of it ) says Thomaston. So does that indicate post- 1865?

Your clock with the movement saying Plymouth, Connecticut and the paper label saying Thomaston, Connecticut was made between 1865 and 1870 because Seth Thomas passed away in 1865 and that was when they renamed Plymouth Hollow, Connecticut to Thomaston, Connecticut in his honor, and from my understanding, they used up all of their movements that still said Plymouth, Conn on them until they ran out of them and but they printed new labels right away.

I've got an 8-day Seth Thomas Column and Cornice clock from 1858 that has a movement just like this in it (except its weight driven and its an 8-day movement rather than a 30-hour movement like yours is) mine unfortunately has lots of issues including a broken count lever for the count wheel and I'm going to have to figure out a way to make a new one for my clock.

 

[shutterbug]

It is, I think, a movement called Round Band, and was used in a Round Band OG. It looks like it works on the same principle as a count wheel, but the strike would be arrested when lever is raised by a pin on the 2nd wheel rather than when it falls into a deep slot as in the normal count wheel. Pretty interesting movement. I've never encountered one like it.