Lorch lathe dissamsembly

Burgos

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Hi,

I have a Lorch lathe and last time I used it there was something strange. The lathe does not spin as usual. It is not stuck but I noticed that it has some kind of resistance in the movement of the wheel (not in the 360º, only in some specific degrees). So I was thinking on disassemble it, clean and see if something is damaged.

So I write this post because I don't know very well how to proceed. Also as you can see the two rings are broken and I don't know if this is correct or it is fine that these two rings should be on that way.

Common sense procedure could be:
1- Remove both rings
2- Remove screw 1 and remove that clamp
3- Remove screw 2

Then I expect to be able to remove it. Is this procedure correct?

Other problem is to assemble back again. Is there something I should have into account? Some tips? Be careful on... or any other idea. This is precision tool and I don't want to disarrange it.

LatheLorch2.jpg

Sorry for my bad English.

Thanks a lot for your help.
 

sharukh

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No the rings are not broken.

Remove both rings by spreading the slot with a screwdriver and they usually pull off.
Remove screw 1 then screw 2.
Gently tap the spindle out from the direction of screw 1. Do not use a metal hammer. If you don't have a rubber or nylon hammer, use a piece of wood to protect the spindle and then tap it out.

Clean with mineral spirits.

Reassemble in the reverse fashion of taking it apart. Don't forget to insert the belt before you tighten everything up.

Sharukh
 
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karlmansson

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Burgos, although I'm not a native speaker, I think your English is nothing to apologize for.

Smart of you to ask questions! Ring 1 and 2 are both dust covers. These can be twisted off using fingers, they are just held in place by friction. Should they be really stuck on there you can pry them open carefully with a well fitting screwdriver in the slot, taking care not to damage them. Once those are off you will be able to see the interface between headstock and spindle bearings. Which is important so that you can evaluate if what you are doing is actually helping. Then undo screw 2 (which holds the pulley in place axially) and screw 1, which I think locks a threaded nut in place on the thread. I have a few Lorch lathes myself but this one is unfamiliar to me so I can't say for sure. If it is threaded, it will unscrew on a right hand thread. If it's just a bushing that is clamped on there you should look for a key or similar that may prevent it from rotating. If you see a thread and/or no key, rotate it. If the spindle won't come out easily after removing this nut, you can use a watchmakers hammer with a piece of wood between the rear of the spindle and then tap it out though the front bearing. Sometimes the spindle can need a little persuading through the pulley.

Clean everything as carefully as you would a watch, lubricate surfaces lightly, asseble and tighten the rear bushing/nut until the spindle turns freely but has no axial play that you can feel with your fingers. And don't forget to install the belt, before assembling the headstock if you want to use a fused one!

Best of luck!

Karl
 
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wefalck

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Karl is right, the piece with screw no. 1 is a clamping nut. It should unscrew easily, once you loosen the screw a bit. I have never seen this system on the headstock of a D-bed lathe, it is the common arrangement on WW-bed lathes.

With this nut you adjust the longitudinal play of the spindle. To facilitate this, the nut should have a radial hole opposite the screw that fits exactly the tommy-bar with which you lock/unlock the top-slide. The spindle should rotate smoothly without detectable end-play. It is normal that it a little bit stiffer at the beginning. After some minutes of running the bearings will warm up and the spindle becomes a tad longer, running more freely.

Once the nut and the rear dust-cover are off, there should be a thick washer visible that pulls against the rear bearing. This interface may be the culprit, if the rotation of the spindle is sticky at some angles. Inspect both side for wear.

Also, check that the pulley is fixed in the middle between the two bearings, it should not touch either of of them, or it may be cause of the stickiness.

BTW, the latter point is different from the more common form of end-play adjustment on Lorch, Schmidt & Co. and Wolf, Jahn & Co. D-bed lathes. On the latter, the pulley is pushed hand-fast against the rear face of the front bearing to control end-play.
 
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karlmansson

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I should add: it is probably a good idea to leave screw 2 tight until you have taken the rear spindle nut off so that you have a way to hold onto the spindle and keep it from turning. Just don't forget to undo screw 2 before trying to tap the spindle out!
 

wefalck

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Incidentally: although this is not historically correct, I replaced the screws 2 on my lathes with Allen-screws (and kept the originals, just in case). Allen-screws are easier to tighten properly without damage. Interestingly, I found that they are Imperial and not metric (but then there are all sorts of weird threads on these lathes).
 

Burgos

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Karl is right, the piece with screw no. 1 is a clamping nut. It should unscrew easily, once you loosen the screw a bit. I have never seen this system on the headstock of a D-bed lathe, it is the common arrangement on WW-bed lathes.

With this nut you adjust the longitudinal play of the spindle. To facilitate this, the nut should have a radial hole opposite the screw that fits exactly the tommy-bar with which you lock/unlock the top-slide. The spindle should rotate smoothly without detectable end-play. It is normal that it a little bit stiffer at the beginning. After some minutes of running the bearings will warm up and the spindle becomes a tad longer, running more freely.

Once the nut and the rear dust-cover are off, there should be a thick washer visible that pulls against the rear bearing. This interface may be the culprit, if the rotation of the spindle is sticky at some angles. Inspect both side for wear.

Also, check that the pulley is fixed in the middle between the two bearings, it should not touch either of of them, or it may be cause of the stickiness.

BTW, the latter point is different from the more common form of end-play adjustment on Lorch, Schmidt & Co. and Wolf, Jahn & Co. D-bed lathes. On the latter, the pulley is pushed hand-fast against the rear face of the front bearing to control end-play.

Rings and screws removed. Now appears a thread. The pulley does not moves at all and the screw is removed ¿Why?

Now should I take a hammer and tap the spindle? Maybe to be sure should I remove the two oilers?

Thanks a lot for your help.

LatheLorch13.jpg
 

Burgos

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Also, check that the pulley is fixed in the middle between the two bearings, it should not touch either of of them, or it may be cause of the stickiness.
That is not the problem. The pulley is in the middle and does not touch the bearings. Thanks for your help.
 

wefalck

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Actually, it is quite a while, since I took my headstock apart ... the part in front of the nut is not just a washer, but also a nut - hand-fast. You should try to unscrew it. If it does not come loose easily, use a wooden clothes peg as protection and grip, and if needed a pair of pliers.

My Dixi mill has the same arrangement, but two slotted nuts, which are easier to manipulate.
 

Burgos

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Actually, it is quite a while, since I took my headstock apart ... the part in front of the nut is not just a washer, but also a nut - hand-fast. You should try to unscrew it...
Humm... Seems this is not the case. There is a key and it is not possible to unscrew. Now I don't know how to follow.

Thanks a a lot. LatheLorch14.jpg
 

karlmansson

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This is a rather common setup where you want to be able to set end play on rotating parts and still not have parts move due to rotation. It's seen in grinding wheel adapters as well. This is the rear cone for the spindle and needs to be locked in rotation relative to the spindle, hence the key. The nut you just removed pushes against this and sets how tight the spindle is.

Now is when you put a piece of wood on the rear end of the spindle and tap with a watchmakers hammer on the wood. If you can see the gap at the spindle nose end widen, keep going.

Regards
K
 
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wefalck

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Karl is right, it is a thick washer with a key and not a nut (as noted above, some machines have a nut and and a counter-nut that are tightened against each other, while here the nut is clamped to prevent it from coming loose).

Make sure that the pulley moves freely on the spindle, otherwise you may tap out the front bearing, which would be a desaster ...
 
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Betzel

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Some lessons learned / thoughts:

The rear section of the spindle is often metalurgically soft. If rust has been removed in the past, it can also be thinner. All the advice here is good, so I would only add that even careful tapping of the rear of the spindle can lead to eccentricity if you are not very careful to drive it gently and dead-straight-parallel with the impact of the hammer. This is especially true if it has been decades since the two very tightly fit components (rear cone and spindle) were assembled. Use no heat, but leaving it in the the sun for 20 minutes may help :)

Everyone (?) has forgotten their fused belt while focusing on careful reassembly.

Removing the oilers is not necessary, but you can see one possible way yours were made by visiting the site of one of our members: D-Bed Watchmaker's Lathe

If you think you can improve the condition of the internal precision ground mating surfaces of the cones or cups, like grooving, I would suggest you reconsider. Be careful with the final adjustment to ensure the free play / shake is "right" and tap lightly to drift/seat everything. These run on a microfilm of oil, so many of us remove the belt (and heavy chucks) when not in use to reduce metal on metal contact.

You may want to follow Lorch recommendations for oiling, one page up from the "oilers" link above. Many of us use Singer sewing machine oil in defiance of recommendations, but at low speed (less than 1000 RPM) it seems to work well enough. There is a supplier in the UK who will sells a Lorch-approved "high speed" (>1500) spindle oil for about 7 euro, delivered in a 30 ml bottle. The difference at higher speed is truly amazing, and there is little to lose. The oil is intended to leak out, flushing contamination with it.

If you have not done it yet, custom fit a screwdriver to match the slots on the pulley.
 

Betzel

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some kind of resistance in the movement of the wheel
Re-reading this, contamination inside is usually constant throughout the full turning radius. I just hope it is not slightly bent. If it was just contaminated, and really spins true and freely after cleaning when tightened back up, great. Be super careful not to drop it :)

If not, and it still sticks, read on.
- - -
My first advice with a bend is to avoid doing any "correcting" until you have inspected and thought things all the way through, so you make one well-decided repair, correctly. If no "corrections" have been made, and it has not been run too much since initial impact, the sticking will always be in the same spot(s), and some early marks may show up on the spindle cones (and/or the hollow bearings) themselves as shiny (or somehow different) spots where metal has contacted metal, due to the deformation. I would leave these alone. They are not real high spots, but will actually be lower when straightened. They're hard as glass and natural wear will correct small issues far better than interventions.

Check it very carefully while it's apart to fully re-create the details of the crime. Do not clean it too well! Use a loupe or a microscope, make notes, and remember where you are looking from (front or the back) when documenting, so the problems you find do not get mixed up looking at it backwards. I reference only the front / spindle nose, use the keyway as TDC (Top, Dead Center, or 12:00) and a clock face for reference (e.g. a high spot at 3:00 on front cone, looking at the front of the spindle). If there are no wear marks, that's okay. You can sometimes blue up the spindle with a permanent pen, and rotate it one turn (360) with both cones seated tightly, the marker will come off to reveal where these new high spot(s) are, but it is not easy. The fewer "real" spots, the better.

Once you have identified where it's making contact, with good notes and clear thoughts, you can begin to work backwards to identify the point of impact, and maybe even the angle from which the force originated, to identify an equal and opposite strike. From there, your repair will be successful. With magnification, you can sometimes identify a "flat spot" where the impact occurred, then you 100% know what happened, unless it is a pulley, which has changed orientation since the hit. If it's a dull bend through the plastic of the drawbar, I think it's harder to fix. Reminds me of hairsprings and bicycle wheels.

Hope I'm wrong about all this!
 
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Burgos

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Re-reading this, contamination inside is usually constant throughout the full turning radius. I just hope it is not slightly bent. If it was just contaminated, and really spins true and freely after cleaning when tightened back up, great. Be super careful not to drop it :)
Well, Should be very strange that the problem comes from a spindle bend; this means that I have dropped the lathe or something else and this never happened.

After cleaning whit white spirit for hours and degreaser there are some stains in the rear cone that it is impossible to clean. Now I remember that I turned a little part that I made with cyanocrylate (cyanocrilate +bicarbonate you obtains something similar to plastic) and when turned it dropped an ultra fine powder. Maybe that stains are just cyanocrylate dust.

I will clean with acetone and see (acetone removes cyanocrylate)

Thanks for your suggestions.

LatheLorch16.jpg
 

Betzel

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I turned a little part that I made with cyanocrylate
Wow. That is pretty weird, but much better than a bent spindle! :cool:

If you are very careful, at a low angle, using a soft blade (blue a single-edge razor?) maybe it will come off like candle wax?
 

Burgos

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Wow. That is pretty weird, but much better than a bent spindle! :cool:

If you are very careful, at a low angle, using a soft blade (blue a single-edge razor?) maybe it will come off like candle wax?
Yes I tried it using a surgical scalpel and what you see on photo is the remaining. I am going to buy some acetone and will see. Last option, if this does not work is take dremel and polish it with polish compound.
 

wefalck

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I am not sure, whether it would be possible to 'bend' a spindle. These are 'glass-hard' and would more likely break I think. In any case, one would need considerable force. However, one could knock out of alignment the inserted spindle bearings.

I would be very reluctant to touch the bearing surfaces with anything mechanical, scalpels or abrasive wheels and the likes. These bearings have been ground round very carefully and then ground into the spindle bearings to ensure exact match and alignment with the axis of the lathe. Loosing some of the bearing surface means that you interrupt the oil-film at this place. This can lead to a further accumulation of dirt.
 
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karlmansson

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Well, Should be very strange that the problem comes from a spindle bend; this means that I have dropped the lathe or something else and this never happened.

After cleaning whit white spirit for hours and degreaser there are some stains in the rear cone that it is impossible to clean. Now I remember that I turned a little part that I made with cyanocrylate (cyanocrilate +bicarbonate you obtains something similar to plastic) and when turned it dropped an ultra fine powder. Maybe that stains are just cyanocrylate dust.

I will clean with acetone and see (acetone removes cyanocrylate)

Thanks for your suggestions.

View attachment 649205
That almost looks like surface pitting to me. Are you sure that the area in question is actually raised and not relieved? Almost looks like a plating that is coming off. Are there any of these bearings that were chromed? I know some clock pivots were plated and that creates issues when trying to burnish.

I agree with Wefalck, don't grind in a singe spot. As a last resort you can use a very fine abrasive compound that breaks down, such as Autosol (Simichrome in some areas) and run the bearings together. You need to be very careful afterwards to clean it out and then you certainly DO need to clean the oilers out.

Regards
Karl
 
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Betzel

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Agreed. I hope acetone works, so there is no enticement to scrape, polish or lap.

The back ends of some spindles (where the keyway and threads are cut) and areas closer to the center (on mine, at least) are not glass hard, though the front of the spindle and rear cones certainly are. The worst is when the rear hits without the drawbar, then with it, then on just the pulley.

All tool drops are bad, and chips in pulleys are often seen, but not usually damaging beyond the pulley itself. Sadly, I have direct experience - hence the tip on careful hammering (even with soft hammers and wood blocks, etc.) Slight permanent deflection can occur. Proper work-holding!!
 
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Burgos

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Agreed. I hope acetone works, so there is no enticement to scrape, polish or lap.
to me
The back ends of some spindles (where the keyway and threads are cut) and areas closer to the center (on mine, at least) are not glass hard, though the front of the spindle and rear cones certainly are. The worst is when the rear hits without the drawbar, then with it, then on just the pulley.

All tool drops are bad, and chips in pulleys are often seen, but not usually damaging beyond the pulley itself. Sadly, I have direct experience - hence the tip on careful hammering (even with soft hammers and wood blocks, etc.) Slight permanent deflection can occur. Proper work-holding!!
Acetone half worked; I finally rejected to polish it with dremel and polish compound seems a bit aggressive so I decided to use nail polish file; it works very well on steel and this is the result. As you can see there are some pits but the colored areas are missing now.

LatheLorch17.jpg


The cooper part I softly polished using "Scotch Brite" and yes, it have some scratches
but they were there before I started to clean it. Now only left assemble it again (fear) but will try to do it very carefully.

Thanks fro your support.

LatheLorch18.jpg
 
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Burgos

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That almost looks like surface pitting to me. Are you sure that the area in question is actually raised and not relieved? Almost looks like a plating that is coming off. Are there any of these bearings that were chromed? I know some clock pivots were plated and that creates issues when trying to burnish.

I agree with Wefalck, don't grind in a singe spot. As a last resort you can use a very fine abrasive compound that breaks down, such as Autosol (Simichrome in some areas) and run the bearings together. You need to be very careful afterwards to clean it out and then you certainly DO need to clean the oilers out.

Regards
Karl
"Almost looks like a plating that is coming off. Are there any of these bearings that were chromed?" -> No, they are not. It is just steel. I though this also but they are no plated. As you can see in the previous photos the surface now is bright and surface seems to be fine.

" you can use a very fine abrasive compound that breaks down, such as Autosol (Simichrome in some areas) and run the bearings together." - > Finally, as I previously commented, used a nail polish on steel and "scotch brite" on cooper (or bronze, I don't know which material is) and final result seems to be good.

Now comes the most tricky part (assemble it again) and to be honest I am a little scared.

Thanks a lot for your tips.
 

Betzel

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Speaking from experience, less is more with all bearing cleaning. But, it looks like you got all the plastic off, and no microns of metal were removed:???:? Good oil will keep it "floating" and it will eventually wear itself back to perfection, but slowly --like a river cuts the earth.

I did not know Lorch ever used soft bearings. Has anyone else ever seen this? Looks like a more recent model.

Reassembly: Just go slow, be sure the nose is going back in the front :cool: and use lots of oil. Tap with a plastic hammer straight and carefully and watch out for any slips from oily hands. Put the belt in first?
 
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karlmansson

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Aw man. I’m sorry to hear that you didn’t heed the advice to not use abrasives. Using scotch brite to “clean” the outside bearing race has probably thrown any precision fitting and lapping out the window and likely embedded a bunch of grit in the surface.

Using a fine, degradable abrasive paste between the two mating surfaces is the only way, short of a full scraping job (very difficult on this scale), that you can polish or otherwise remove material safely in a bearing with this degree of precision that I know of.
I hope you lathe will still be up to your requirements after you reassemble it.

Regards
Karl
 
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gmorse

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If anyone is under the impression that Scotch-Brite is non-abrasive, this is part of the Wikepedia entry for it:

" The structure of Scotch-Brite pads is created by a sparse unwoven polymer such as cellulose, nylon or spun polypropylene fiber. Products use several variations of hardening and abrasive materials, such as Aluminum oxide (alumina), Titanium dioxide and resins. Although the base polymers may be considered benignly soft, the composition with other materials greatly enhances their abrasive powers; to the extent that a heavy-duty Scotch-Brite pad (which contains both Aluminum oxide and Titanium oxide) will actually scratch glass."
 
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Burgos

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Aw man. I’m sorry to hear that you didn’t heed the advice to not use abrasives. Using scotch brite to “clean” the outside bearing race has probably thrown any precision fitting and lapping out the window and likely embedded a bunch of grit in the surface.

Using a fine, degradable abrasive paste between the two mating surfaces is the only way, short of a full scraping job (very difficult on this scale), that you can polish or otherwise remove material safely in a bearing with this degree of precision that I know of.
I hope you lathe will still be up to your requirements after you reassemble it.

Regards
Karl

Oh! I didn't know that Scoth brite was so abrasive... You are right for sure but this a second? third? fourth? hand lathe I bought on ebay. it is a 80 years old lathe and the precision when I bought probably was not fine at 100% I don't know it because in am not a watchmaker professional just it is a hobby.

Well now is full assembled again and now I am trying to adjust the rear cone pressure using the rear nut. I have started from more pressure to less, well lubricated and running it for 10 minutes for each adjustment. Still don't know if precision is fine because I have not used it. Any advice about how to know the precission of a lathe? For the moment what I can tell you is that spins perfectly and with now problems.

Thanks again for your help.

LatheLorch19.jpg
 

Betzel

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It's hard not to clean (polish, etc.) old machinery, so not too bad for a first breakdown. Hopefully, it's not much removed.

With proper care, the lathe will last several human lifetimes, and yours appears to only have been abused in the last few days :) There is a final adjustment (or two) usually made by seating the rear cone fully against the adjustment nut (loosened) via slight hammer blows to the spindle rear, driving everything "tight." Then, clamp the mini-screw(s) in the clamping nut.

The result (if you do it correctly and your lathe is in good condition) should be no resistance with oil in place and no movement in any direction under axial or radial load. It is a very fine adjustment to the precise thickness of just enough oil to "float" the spindle. As your modified lathe "breaks in" again, you may see some dirty oil with goldschläger coming from the edges, under the caps for a while until wear returns it to where it was before. It may need another adjustment as this happens. Spindle oil is recommended to avoid heat. If you feel heat, your oil is too heavy or you are going too fast, or both. It's not perfect, but sewing machine oil will work at slow speeds (<1000). The correct high-speed oil drips like water.

For your health, as well as the lathe, you might consider dust extraction via a vacuum cleaner, so the dust goes somewhere safe. Speaking of safe, do you make fountain ink pens from celluloid?
 

wefalck

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I got stomach cramps, when I read about ScotchBrite on bronze bearings ... ok, no it's done. However, after a few hours of running (in), I would take it apart again and check. The residual oil will be probably grey from abraded metal. Clean out very thoroughly again.

Neither me, I didn't see bronze bearings on a Lorch lathe before.

Bonze can be quite hard, particularly when cast under pressure or work-hardened by driving a cone into a raw bearing. The Austrian made guns in the later 19th century like that, because for economic policy reasons they were forced to use local materials and not to buy high-quality steel from Germany, as they didn't have the necessary steel-making capabilities.

Bronze bearings are also common in larger lathes, because they were easier to manufacture than large glass-hard steel bearings.
 

Burgos

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It's hard not to clean (polish, etc.) old machinery, so not too bad for a first breakdown. Hopefully, it's not much removed.

With proper care, the lathe will last several human lifetimes, and yours appears to only have been abused in the last few days :) There is a final adjustment (or two) usually made by seating the rear cone fully against the adjustment nut (loosened) via slight hammer blows to the spindle rear, driving everything "tight." Then, clamp the mini-screw(s) in the clamping nut.

The result (if you do it correctly and your lathe is in good condition) should be no resistance with oil in place and no movement in any direction under axial or radial load. It is a very fine adjustment to the precise thickness of just enough oil to "float" the spindle. As your modified lathe "breaks in" again, you may see some dirty oil with goldschläger coming from the edges, under the caps for a while until wear returns it to where it was before. It may need another adjustment as this happens. Spindle oil is recommended to avoid heat. If you feel heat, your oil is too heavy or you are going too fast, or both. It's not perfect, but sewing machine oil will work at slow speeds (<1000). The correct high-speed oil drips like water.

For your health, as well as the lathe, you might consider dust extraction via a vacuum cleaner, so the dust goes somewhere safe. Speaking of safe, do you make fountain ink pens from celluloid?
The result (if you do it correctly and your lathe is in good condition) should be no resistance with oil in place and no movement in any direction under axial or radial load.--> There is no axial or radial movement at all, it is solid as a rock, but there are some resistance to spin.

...you may see some dirty oil with goldschläger coming from the edges, under the caps for a while until wear returns it to where it was before.--> Yes, at the very beginning, the oil coming from the edges was black but no "goldschläger" at any moment. Yes, I am using sewing machine oil. No heat at low speed but a couple of times tried fast speed and I started to notice heat.

For your health, as well as the lathe, you might consider dust extraction via a vacuum cleaner--> What do you mean? Try to extract the dirty oil with a domestic vacuum cleaner as is? Or you mean to disassemble it again and use a vacuum to clean it? Maybe it is more direct to disassemble an clean parts in ultrasonic cleaner?

Speaking of safe, do you make fountain ink pens from celluloid?-->No, ¿Why you ask this?


The procedure i am following is this: Two or three drops of oil in oilers and run at low speed for 10-15 minutes drop some oil from time to time. Then stop and thigh the nut 5º then repeat operation again and so and so. Do you think is a correct procedure?

Thanks a lot for your time.
Regards.
 

wefalck

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I think the question about the celluloid was triggered by its fire hazard: celluoid is cellulose nitrate with camphor as plasticiser. Ageing celluloid may sponatneously combust, which is why old film rolls in archives have to be stored with special precautionary measures.

Today the original celluloid seems to have been largely replaced by cellulose acetate, but still may go by the name.

As to the oiling: why don't you fill up the oilers right to the top from the beginning ? It the gravity the pushes the oil into the bearing and capillary effects that suck it into the bearing. I top up every day on which I use the lathe.
 

Burgos

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I think the question about the celluloid was triggered by its fire hazard: celluoid is cellulose nitrate with camphor as plasticiser. Ageing celluloid may sponatneously combust, which is why old film rolls in archives have to be stored with special precautionary measures.

Today the original celluloid seems to have been largely replaced by cellulose acetate, but still may go by the name.

As to the oiling: why don't you fill up the oilers right to the top from the beginning ? It the gravity the pushes the oil into the bearing and capillary effects that suck it into the bearing. I top up every day on which I use the lathe.

Ahhh! ok, makes sense. Yes I fill the oilers right to the top in the process. The strange is that the rear cone consumption is 10 times greater than the other one.

By the way; you commented before "Neither me, I didn't see bronze bearings on a Lorch lathe before." Maybe this is because the bearings are not the original? Probably is a refurbished lathe.

What do you think about the procedure i am following?
The procedure i am following is this: Two or three drops of oil in oilers and run at low speed for 10-15 minutes drop some oil from time to time. Then stop and thigh the nut 5º then repeat operation again and so and so. Do you think is a correct procedure?


Thanks a lot for your tips.

Regards.
 

wefalck

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On my lathes it tends to be the other way around, the front one consumes more than the rear one.

Perhaps you didn't run yours under load yet ?

I am speculating here, but I could imagine that when running under load, obviously the front bearing is stressed more and hence looses more oil, while the rear one is compressed less and, therefore, can retain the oil better due to capillary forces.

One never knows what happened to thses lathes during their history. However, these hard steel-bearing outlast several normal watchmaker lives, if treated with reasonable care. This is why there are still so many on the second-hand market. Some of them may now be well over a hundred years old, as it is very difficult to estimate the age because the design barely changed between the 1880s and the 1960s, when production ceased.
 

karlmansson

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Ahhh! ok, makes sense. Yes I fill the oilers right to the top in the process. The strange is that the rear cone consumption is 10 times greater than the other one.

By the way; you commented before "Neither me, I didn't see bronze bearings on a Lorch lathe before." Maybe this is because the bearings are not the original? Probably is a refurbished lathe.

What do you think about the procedure i am following?
The procedure i am following is this: Two or three drops of oil in oilers and run at low speed for 10-15 minutes drop some oil from time to time. Then stop and thigh the nut 5º then repeat operation again and so and so. Do you think is a correct procedure?


Thanks a lot for your tips.

Regards.
I mean, "correct procedure" would include you having a machine where you can predictably evaluate the results compared to expected outcome. That is going to be hard on based on the treatment you recently gave your lathe.

Oil film bearings rely on precicely that: a thin film of oil of constant thickness between the two bearing surfaces. You have altered the geometry of the rear bearing with the scotchbrite and also possibly created a pretty substantial low spot with your nail file. This makes the cross section of the cavity between the bearing surfaces uneven, allowing oil to flow where the space is increased. The surface tension is not constant all around the oil film and the oil will run through more quickly.

I know I wrote this earlier but I'll go again as I don't think the real meaning of the concept was clear: you have likely embedded grit in the surface of the bronze bearing from using the scotchbrite. This is how lapping with soft plates is done. A very hard abrasive embeds into a softer surface. This is then used to cut a harder surface. So any grit left in the bronze will now act as a lap, cutting grooves in the steel in the spindle bearing. It will keep cutting until it has cut a groove and made a "relief" for itself in the bearing material. This is what shows up as scoring in a bearing.

Regards
Karl
 

Betzel

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Sorry, but not surprised, to hear.

"Resistance to spin" (or sticking) is abnormal. And, heat, it is bad.

This is why we try to discourage folks from doing anything to the bearings beyond flushing with solvents, cleaning with a rag, etc. There was work done on the rear cone, as Karl pointed out, which likely explains it's faster oil loss. If abrasives were embedded, nothing good will come of it. If the filing cut more than a micron or two off, it may leak excessively until it wears itself round again, which may never happen, or may take a very long time. I would disassemble and inspect for "additional wear." If there is abrasive in the bronze, you may need a scope to see it, it may "bed in" if you are lucky, or you might have to think about how to remove it. Hope not!

If you see no remnant abrasive damage, and the sticking is consistent throughout the turn of the spindle, meaning it was related to the recent work, then the lathe may not fine-adjust at first and may use more oil until everything heals. If it is not sticking badly, I would run --slow and cool only-- until wear occurs returning the spindle and bearings to the condition from before. This could take a while, produce more dirty oil, and perhaps some bronze goldschläger effects and loosening of the spindle will occur as wear progresses. Keep oiling it and, keep an eye on it. Tighten as required over time.

If, however, the adjustment nut is just too tight, then loosen the clamp screws, loosen the clamp a few degrees (5 or so seems ok), then carefully "drift" the back cone and clamp nut tightly together with a soft hammer (gently, but enough to accomplish the job) a wood block helps sometimes. This final tapping must be done each time, as the tolerances are close. This is the actual adjustment after turning the nut either way. Then, tighten the clamp screws again and check everything, etc. Repeat as needed. As above, it may not adjust perfectly the first few times, as the spindle will need to "break in" again, like a new or rebuilt engine in older model cars. It's a slow process.

I suggested you use the vacuum to suck the powdered dust away from the lathe and your lungs while you work. Oil from the lathe can be mopped up with an appropriately clean rag :) Many people who are not watch/clock restorers use these lathes to make fancy pens. Celluloid is explosive if not first correctly treated.
 

Burgos

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Sep 21, 2009
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I know I wrote this earlier but I'll go again as I don't think the real meaning of the concept was clear: you have likely embedded grit in the surface of the bronze bearing from using the scotchbrite. This is how lapping with soft plates is done. A very hard abrasive embeds into a softer surface. This is then used to cut a harder surface. So any grit left in the bronze will now act as a lap, cutting grooves in the steel in the spindle bearing. It will keep cutting until it has cut a groove and made a "relief" for itself in the bearing material. This is what shows up as scoring in a bearing.

Regards
Karl
Well, after using the Scotch brite i cleaned all the parts with degreaser and soap in the ultrasonic cleaner. So I think no grit was left.

Ok, I am going to run it and let spin for some hours on these days. Then I will think on next step if It does to runs as expected.

Thanks a lot for your help.
 

karlmansson

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Well, after using the Scotch brite i cleaned all the parts with degreaser and soap in the ultrasonic cleaner. So I think no grit was left.

Ok, I am going to run it and let spin for some hours on these days. Then I will think on next step if It does to runs as expected.

Thanks a lot for your help.
I think you are not understanding the concept of "embedded". Should an abasive particle be embedded, the only way to get it out is to either pick it out or remove the surrounding material along with the grit with a file.
 

Burgos

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Full disassembled again. Inspecting cones and spindle I can't find any problem on it.

LatheLorch34.jpg

LatheLorch39.jpg

LatheLorch37.jpg

LatheLorch36.jpg

LatheLorch38.jpg


After cleaning all again and assemble it now seems that runs fine. No heat, normal oil consumption and it spins fine with no resistance to spin. There is no play in x and y axis so I think that the problem came of a incorrect fit of the cones on first test. I have no checked yet the precision of the lathe (basically because I don't know how to do it).

Thanks to all for your support.
 

wefalck

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In order to test the run-out etc. of a lathe spindle, you would need to have dial test indicator - check ebay et al. for it.
 
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AlexandreVienna

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Theese cleaned bearings are Brass ! Has mine too. Has to be so it can last a few lifetimes... One material hard, the other soft so it can change the form .

Don't forget to oil it every day or at least after 10 hours of operation and/or after it was idle for some time... I use synthetic motor oil 5w40.

Next time the steel cones have wear, grooves etc. use a 5000 grit paper but only with a little piece of wood, or use Diamantine. Theese steel cones have to have a perfect surface. And do not use any tools on it like Dremel. Later on the steel cones will make the softer brass fit.

Alex
 
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Burgos

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Theese cleaned bearings are Brass ! Has mine too. Has to be so it can last a few lifetimes... One material hard, the other soft so it can change the form .

Don't forget to oil it every day or at least after 10 hours of operation and/or after it was idle for some time... I use synthetic motor oil 5w40.

Next time the steel cones have wear, grooves etc. use a 5000 grit paper but only with a little piece of wood, or use Diamantine. Theese steel cones have to have a perfect surface. And do not use any tools on it like Dremel. Later on the steel cones will make the softer brass fit.

Alex
Well, I use sewing machine oil and yes, the first task I do when I start to use it is drop a couple of oil drops in the oilers.

Do you think a 5w40 is better? Like mi diesel car engine? Why?

Thanks for your advice.
 
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AlexandreVienna

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5w40 is a fully synthtic oil. I used to use "white oil" before, that is one without acids, even finer than sewing machine oil, but similar..

Now Regarding oil - I followed Steve's advice after reading his article:

 

dave-b

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5w40 is a fully synthtic oil. I used to use "white oil" before, that is one without acids, even finer than sewing machine oil, but similar..

Now Regarding oil - I followed Steve's advice after reading his article:

Interesting advice - thanks.
 

karlmansson

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I remember a member of this forum doing some pretty substantial research on recommended oils for small spindles. I think it may have been Dushan Grujich. Castrol Hyspin turned up. I've been using Mobil Velocite No.6 for my smaller lathes and No.10 for my larger ones. Both have been great. Car engines and lathes differ in a few ways, especially in regards to working temperature, load and speed. For a watchmakers lathe we want a very thin film of oil that will still lubricate without "breaking". This is what is called the lubricity of the oil. It's not related to either viscosity (centistroke or "weight") or whether or not it's synthetic or natural. It's just how thin the oil film can be stretched without breaking under pressure. And spindle oils are designed to behave like that, so even very "light" oils can be very slippery even under high loads and speeds.

This also sets them apart from clocks, as in the article linked above. In clocks the relative speed is very low when compared to a lathe. And the point of contact is more or less constant.

Also worth noting is that many motor oils contains soap like compounds designed to lift impurities so that they will get moved to the oil filter. With lathes with an oil bath you would rather let any debris precipitate in the reservoir and then clean out with the next oil change. Of course, for a total loss system such as a watchmakers lathe, this is less of an issue as the oil is continually flowing through.

Regards
Karl
 

measuretwice

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using Mobil Velocite No.6 for my smaller lathes and No.10 for my larger ones. Both have been great. Car engines and lathes differ in a few ways,
Agreed, you're using the right stuff. The use of synthetic motor doesn't make much sense, but if the right viscosity is unlikely to do any harm and its readily available. The spindle oils are however supposed to be a cleaner. There is zero benefit to using a synthetic oil in this total loss application; they benefit is longer life when exposed to higher temps like in an engine. Even the name is a misnomer, its still mostly mineral oil
 
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Betzel

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I've been using Mobil Velocite No.6 for my smaller lathes
It was Dushan. He has the tech spec sheets from Lorch and G. Boley (just before they went under, so recent) up on his personal site.

There is a UK based eBay lube seller who packages 30ml dropper bottles of #6, and shipping is cheap too. It is not expensive, and for a precise bearing, especially at speed, it works ideally. My Geneva's bearings are worn but not quite pooched, so for slower speeds (<1000) Singer is cheap and works well enough for me. On the grinder spindle for the high support, though, #6 is nothing short of amazing.

Leaking out of a hole I would use a lot of oil, keep it slow, use the cheap stuff, and put on additional splatter guards --or fix it :)
 
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dave-b

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It was Dushan. He has the tech spec sheets from Lorch and G. Boley (just before they went under, so recent) up on his personal site.

There is a UK based eBay lube seller who packages 30ml dropper bottles of #6, and shipping is cheap too. It is not expensive, and for a precise bearing, especially at speed, it works ideally. My Geneva's bearings are worn but not quite pooched, so for slower speeds (<1000) Singer is cheap and works well enough for me. On the grinder spindle for the high support, though, #6 is nothing short of amazing.

Leaking out of a hole I would use a lot of oil, keep it slow, use the cheap stuff, and put on additional splatter guards --or fix it :)
It is all too rare to hear the views of someone like Steve who has experience in both horology and tribology. I welcome it.
 
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dave-b

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I remember a member of this forum doing some pretty substantial research on recommended oils for small spindles. I think it may have been Dushan Grujich. Castrol Hyspin turned up. I've been using Mobil Velocite No.6 for my smaller lathes and No.10 for my larger ones. Both have been great. Car engines and lathes differ in a few ways, especially in regards to working temperature, load and speed. For a watchmakers lathe we want a very thin film of oil that will still lubricate without "breaking". This is what is called the lubricity of the oil. It's not related to either viscosity (centistroke or "weight") or whether or not it's synthetic or natural. It's just how thin the oil film can be stretched without breaking under pressure. And spindle oils are designed to behave like that, so even very "light" oils can be very slippery even under high loads and speeds.

This also sets them apart from clocks, as in the article linked above. In clocks the relative speed is very low when compared to a lathe. And the point of contact is more or less constant.

Also worth noting is that many motor oils contains soap like compounds designed to lift impurities so that they will get moved to the oil filter. With lathes with an oil bath you would rather let any debris precipitate in the reservoir and then clean out with the next oil change. Of course, for a total loss system such as a watchmakers lathe, this is less of an issue as the oil is continually flowing through.

Regards
Karl
It is all too rare to have the viewpoint of someone with a background in both horology and tribology. I welcome it.
 

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