1801 - 1900 Look for information and possible value of my watch

[Lurch]

I have this pocket watch, and am wondering what the value might be. The cristal is plastic, don’t know if it’s original or replacement. I did a quick search and found out that it’s from 1893.

 

[Christopher Burris]

Welcome, and nice watch.

We can see it's a Waltham but a picture of the movement would tell the story you want to hear.

I would think it dates a little new than you think, maybe 1910-20, but as I said the serial number on the movement tells that approx. year.

The off color plastic crystal is need to be replace and is actually slowly destroying your watch hands due to a gas it releases. Replacement crystals are easy to find.

 

[Lurch]

Welcome, and nice watch.

We can see it's a Waltham but a picture of the movement would tell the story you want to hear.

I would think it dates a little new than you think, maybe 1910-20, but as I said the serial number on the movement tells that approx. year.

The off color plastic crystal is need to be replace and is actually slowly destroying your watch hands due to a gas it releases. Replacement crystals are easy to find.

Waltham Pocket Watch: Serial Number 5840467 (Grade No. 64)

Serial lookups, info, specs, and value for American antique pocket watches covering manufacturers like Elgin, Illinois, Waltham, and Hamilton

pocketwatchdatabase.com

 

[Steven Thornberry]

Waltham Pocket Watch: Serial Number 5840467 (Grade No. 64)

Serial lookups, info, specs, and value for American antique pocket watches covering manufacturers like Elgin, Illinois, Waltham, and Hamilton

pocketwatchdatabase.com

View attachment 747789 View attachment 747790

You used the serial number on the case. If I am reading the movement serial number correctly, your watch is the following.

Waltham Pocket Watch: Serial Number 23673146 (Grade No. 210) (pocketwatchdatabase.com)

 

[musicguy]

Welcome to the NAWCC Forum!


Rob

 

[Lurch]

You used the serial number on the case. If I am reading the movement serial number correctly, your watch is the following.

Waltham Pocket Watch: Serial Number 23673146 (Grade No. 210) (pocketwatchdatabase.com)

Thanks for the correction.

 

[topspin]

Yes, that's a grade 210 any day of the week (not a model 1891.)

As for value - check the Sold Listings of ebay or whichever outlet you were considering disposing of it on, for similar watches. (As you can see it's a common watch - lots of them around.) This will give you an idea how much they usually change hands for. It's probably rather less than you were hoping for.
Has it been serviced recently? Does it run, wind, & set correctly?

 

[John Cote]

Lurch, you asked for a value on the NAWCC forums and I think you should expect an honest answer. So, I will try to give you as honest an answer as I can. First, your watch is in a worn gold filled case so there is very little metal value. Second, it is not a desirable size or grade. Third it has a lot of pieces missing and it would cost way more than an example in great condition is worth to fix it. I think you can see where I am going and I wish I had better news for you but the truth is the truth. Your watch probably only has value, unless it might have sentimental family value, to someone who wants it for parts. At our regional meeting watches like these usually sit on mart tables unsold unless the price gets down to >$30. On eBay it might sell as is for a few bucks more. Again, sorry for my grim honesty but I think that's what you asked for.

Best,

 

[musicguy]

it is not a desirable size

Even though I do agree with 99.99% of what John said in reference to the OP's watch,
I only differ in that the 12 size is one of my favorite sizes(I do like all sizes)
and I do hope they are somewhat collectable in the future when
my family decides to liquidate them. . I may need to start a new
thread on some of the 12s grades(and 12s cases with smaller movements)
that I like to make sure they don't get forgotten
about by collectors.

Rob

 

[Lurch]

Yes, that's a grade 210 any day of the week (not a model 1891.)

As for value - check the Sold Listings of ebay or whichever outlet you were considering disposing of it on, for similar watches. (As you can see it's a common watch - lots of them around.) This will give you an idea how much they usually change hands for. It's probably rather less than you were hoping for.
Has it been serviced recently? Does it run, wind, & set correctly?

Hasn’t been serviced since I Acquired it many years ago and has been sitting in a box for idk how long. And is missing some mechanical parts. So no run, wind or set

 

[John Cote]

Even though I do agree with 99.99% of what John said in reference to the OP's watch,
I only differ in that the 12 size is one of my favorite sizes(I do like all sizes)
and I do hope they are somewhat collectable in the future when
my family decides to liquidate them. . I may need to start a new
thread on some of the 12s grades(and 12s cases with smaller movements)
that I like to make sure they don't get forgotten
about by collectors.

Rob,

I like some 12 size watches too. I have some in my collection too. However you and I do not make the market and it is tough to say under any circumstance that the market likes this size.

 

[Steven Thornberry]

it is tough to say under any circumstance that the market likes this size.

To paraphrase Mr. Bumble:

"If the market supposes that, the market is a ass—a idiot. If that's the eye of the market the market is a bachelor; and the worst I wish the market is that his eye may be opened by experience—by experience."

Well, he said sheepishly, I have an inordinate number of 12s Illinois pocket watches in my small collection. But, then, I also have a number of cottage clocks.

 

[topspin]

Yes I like 12s too. I got into them thanks to this thread - 12-size Waltham evolution (briefly)

One possible future timeline for the OP's watch, would be to buy up any 12s orphan movement of a similar age that pleases the eye, and swap the movements over. The outgoing movement would still be useful for spares. Remember to also get that crystal replaced, too.
Another possible timeline would be - Enjoy it for what it is, "as is", as a display piece, and not worry about what it isn't.

 

[Ethan Lipsig]

I, too, wondered about your comment, John, that the market doesn't like 12-size watches. People have been saying things like that for the nearly 20 years I've been collecting watches. I am sure there is some truth to it, but I'm not sure of its significance, and I don't know how to gauge its truth or significance. It might be a good idea for some of us 12-size collectors (I mainly collect watches that are about that size) to brainstorm in a private message about this, with the goal of starting a new thread with our conclusions. If any of you are interested, please send me a private message with cc's to John Cote, Steven Thornberry, and Rob (musicguy).

There is enough of a market for 12-size watches that one can buy and sell them. So, what is the significance of the market not liking 12-size watches? The market prices for all sizes of pocket watches are stagnant or declining.

One possible significance is there are more collectors of larger size pocket watches than of smaller size pocket watches, but so what? For example, I am sure that there are more collectors of 16-size Bunn Specials, which I don't collect, than there are of the 12-size Elgin C.H. Hulburds that I do collect. Bunn Specials no doubt fetch more than they otherwise would because that model is popular with collectors. I am glad there aren't more eager C.H. Hulburd collectors; C.H. Hulburds are already expensive enough.

Another possible significance is that larger pocket watches generally command higher prices than smaller ones but, again, so what? In a world where most pocket watches (perhaps 99%) are worth no more than a few hundred dollars plus the net scrap value of their cases, how can one measure the impact of the market not liking smaller watches. I spent a few minutes looking at completed eBay sales in hopes I could come up with the average sales prices of YGF-cased, working 12-size and 16-size American pocket watches to see if the 16-size pocket watches fetched higher prices. I didn't get very far for a variety of reasons, but even if I found that 16-size pocket watches sold for, e.g., $100 more on average, what would that prove unless the market doesn't like 12-size watches only means they typically sell for less than larger pocket watches.

 

[MrRoundel]

The good news is that the OP may be able to get the watch in running (Albeit not for long periods, to be safe.), with just a couple of parts. If it has one of Waltham's one-piece clicks that includes the spring, it's a simple fix with jeweler's screwdriver and the right screw and click. Most with average steady hand, the right magnification, and a decent screwdriver should be able to get it done themselves.

I can't disagree with the value assessments given above, but I'm thinking that John Cote may have meant his claret to face the other way, making it a <$30. Even if running, the movement is an entry level movement, with the common minimum of 7 jewels. That's where I'd see it, but $30 is a good round number. I don't think that the Scepter cases had a particularly heavy gold fill, so not much premium there. However, if the case presents better than average, and is minimally worn, with no brass showing through, you might add ~$10 on a good day.

FWIW, I, for one, or two, or whatever, do like 12s watches. Truth be told, I don't wear them any less than I wear a 16s or 18s. Oh snarge, the truth is out. Cheers.

 

[John Cote]

I, too, wondered about your comment, John, that the market doesn't like 12-size watches. People have been saying things like that for the nearly 20 years I've been collecting watches. I am sure there is some truth to it, but I'm not sure of its significance, and I don't know how to gauge its truth or significance.

Ethan,

A couple of things...First, for a relatively equal in quality 12 size watch relative to same quality 16 size watch the market shows a price difference. Let's just take a Hamilton 917 (12 size) to a Hamilton 974 (16 size). All you have to do is go to an NAWCC show or look on eBay to understand this. Second, for all of us who like 12 size watches it means that they can be a relative bargain.

The other part of this is that top quality watches, meaning better finish, high jewel, well cased watches of any size are always going to be in demand. The OP's watch is not in this catagory....sorry...just being honest which is what I would want if I were the OP.

 

[Ethan Lipsig]

[F]or a relatively equal in quality 12 size watch relative to same quality 16 size watch the market shows a price difference. Let's just take a Hamilton 917 (12 size) to a Hamilton 974 (16 size). All you have to do is go to an NAWCC show or look on eBay to understand this.

John, I accepted your challenge to look at recent eBay sale prices for Hamilton 917s (which are 10-size watches, not 12-size) and 974s (16-size). Contrary to what you said, the sale + shipping price range of working YGF-cased 917s ($92 to $399) was higher than the sale + shipping price range of working YGF-cased 974s ($57 to $385).

I am not claiming that this proves Hamilton 917s to be more valuable than Hamilton 974s. If I looked at the price range six months ago or six months from now, the 974s might have had the higher sales price range. Indeed, if I looked at the average sales price of 917s and 974s (which would take more time than I am willing to spend on this issue), I might well have found that the 974s average sales price was higher, or vice versa.

Rather, I only cite this information to show that statements such as the market doesn't like 12-size watches are not necessarily accurate and, more to the point, not especially informative, and that the perception that they are less valuable than larger watches may not be true.

See, for 917s: HAMILTON GRADE 917 MODEL 10S 17J POCKET WATCH OPEN FACE USA 1949 NR #WB540-4 | eBay, and 1940's Hamilton 10k GF Rose Gold 917 17 Jewel Pocket Watch Salmon DIal serviced | eBay.

See, for 974s: Atq Men's Hamilton 20yrs GF Open Face Pocket Watch 16s 17j Gr: 974 Running | eBay , and Hamilton 974 Electric Railway Special 17j. 10K RGP 16s Case SERVICED! c1922 | eBay.

 

[Jim Haney]

Ethan,
I agree with John on the GENERAL statement that 12s watches are not as marketable and do not bring the higher prices of 16s watches.
I base this on my 30 year collecting experiences and attending and buying & selling at watch shows over the years.

Ethan, you primarily collect stunning Gold watches that would not compare to regular 12s watches.

In your example it is hardly fair to compare a Broken dial with a good dial.

 

[John Cote]

Well, I have to admit when I am wrong and at least my 917 to 974 example seems to have been wrong. Pocket Watch Database has a value look-up function which is pretty amazing. Here are the charts on the 917 and the 974 over a couple of years.

I still hold to my market interpretation. I do not buy any watches on eBay or at auction but I buy and sell at NAWCC marts and you simply can't give most 12 size watches away. Again, I am not talking about the better stuff but just average common watches.

Anyway, I seem to have been quantitatively wrong so there you have it. I think I am still completely right about the OP's watch.

 

[musicguy]

Anyway, I seem to have been quantitatively wrong so there you have it. I think I am still completely right about the OP's watch.

I accept your concession


Rob

 

[John Cote]

I accept your concession

Thanks, and again, I think I was wrong about the 917 to 974 analogy but not in general about the market for 12 and smaller sized watches. We all know that the 917 is being used by several companies to make wrist watches so examples are being snapped up for that purpose. It was a bad analogy.

 

[Ethan Lipsig]

Thanks, John, Jim, and Rob, for the constructive replies. It's nice to know about that Pocket Watch Database value-tracking feature. I'd not been aware of it. And just to be clear: I never disputed the view that there likely are fewer collectors of 12-size and 10-size American pocket watches than of 16-size and 18-size American pocket watches. My only point was that that information isn't especially helpful and some may view it as denigrating smaller pocket watches or their collectors, as I do.

 

[John Cote]

My only point was that that information isn't especially helpful and some may view it as denigrating smaller pocket watches or their collectors, as I do.

Ethan, I want you to know that I have, for a long time, though that going against the grain as a collector is the smart choice. When I built my first watch website in around 1998 or 9 the main focus was a section called "Collecting Illinois Watches Without Going Broke." It talked about avoiding the much loved 16s Bunn Specials and looking for high grade but less known or less appreciated by the market grades and variations. I have always been an advocate for finding gems that go unnoticed or look unpolished to the average collector. High grade 12 size watches fit this description very well. They have my respect and they find a place in my collection.

I am sorry if my analysis of the market, which I stand by, seemed somehow to denigrate 12 size enthusiasts. I certainly did not mean it that way.

 

[Ethan Lipsig]

John, I know you meant well.

 

[Clint Geller]

There may be a couple of factors that complicate direct comparisons of 12 Size and 16 Size watch values. First, if the models in question are high grade, they were often if not even usually cased in gold or platinum, and if so, the value of the metal in the case often constitutes much of the watch's value. Obviously, 12 Size gold cases generally contain less gold than 16 Size gold cases. So perhaps the only clear debate is whether 12 Size movements are worth less than 16 Size movements, other things being equal. The only 12 Size movements I have followed to any real extent are the American Watch Company Grade 12 Size bridge models, and the J (roughly 12) Size Howards. Of the two, the 12 Size and 16 Size AWCo Grade Waltham bridge models provide perhaps the clearest comparison. Looking throught the J&H sales archives, I found two 12s AWCo bridge models that sold in GF recases, which probably added little value, over the past few years for $350 and $375. In roughly the same period, I found three 16s AWCo grade bridge models that sold in GF cases for $750, $650, and $475.