Longines for R W Sorley, Glasgow, 1884

Bernhard J.

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Hi All,

I have recently bought this "English" (better: "Scottish") watch, as a further example for good quality imported watches lacking their foreign signatures (similar to the Bright & Sons presented earlier). It is a Longines imported and distributed by R W Sorley of Glasgow, reputed jewellers. The case was made in the UK and bears the same number like the movement. Both, hallmarks and serial number, date the watch to 1884, making it a rather early Longines. The movement bears the Longines logo on the balance cock.

The case maker is Arthur Baume & Co, who were importers of, among others, Longines watches/movements. Interestingly the movement plate bears a stamp "Baume" under the balance wheel.

I in fact have a Longines (signed as such and in a Longines case) with the same movement since about 4 decades and since then wonder, how this calibre is called. This one here is now just the second one seen in all these years. In all lists and tables, this movement type seems to be absent, even today with the possibilities of the www.

Does perhaps someone here know more about this specific calibre, how it is called, during which period it was made, and perhaps even approximate numbers?

Cheers, Bernhard

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P.S.: I really like it "although" it was "just" about 160 GBP. A really good (and presumably rare) movement in a watch without any signatures (aside on the dust lid). Quite modest in appearance and "disguising" the inner qualities. And in excellent condition.
 
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miguel angel cladera

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Hi All,

I have recently bought this "English" (better: "Scottish") watch, as a further example for good quality imported watches lacking their foreign signatures (similar to the Bright & Sons presented earlier). It is a Longines imported and distributed by R W Sorley of Glasgow, reputed jewellers. The case was made in the UK and bears the same number like the movement. Both, hallmarks and serial number, date the watch to 1884, making it a rather early Longines. The movement bears the Longines logo on the balance cock.

The case maker is Arthur Baume & Co, who were importers of, among others, Longines watches/movements. Interestingly the movement plate bears a stamp "Baume" under the balance wheel.

I in fact have a Longines (signed as such) with the same movement since about 4 decades and since then wonder, how this calibre is called. This one here is now just the second one seen in all these years. In all lists and tables, this movement type seems to be absent, even today with the possibilities of the www.

Does perhaps someone here know more about this specific calibre, how it is called, during which period it was made, and perhaps even approximate numbers?

Cheers, Bernhard

View attachment 735513
View attachment 735514
View attachment 735515
View attachment 735516
View attachment 735517
View attachment 735518

P.S.: I really like it "although" it was "just" about 160 GBP. A really good (and presumably rare) movement in a watch without any signatures (aside on the dust lid). Quite modest in appearance and "disguising" the inner qualities. And in excellent condition.
Nice watch, it has a certain resemblance to the Express Monarch movements that were introduced to the North American market. They were very high quality calibres.

longin56.jpg
 
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Bernhard J.

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Hi Miguel,

Yes, but with a single top plate, and this including the escape wheel.

Just by accident I just now found this Longines , if you scroll all the way down this movement is shown and said to be called 19A. Which is the same as a wristwatch movement designation, making research somewhat difficult. I am somewhat unsure whether this is correct, since other pocket watch calibres have a point after the diameter, followed by two numbers.

Cheers, Bernhard
 
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miguel angel cladera

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Maybe you can find more information about if you search by 19''' lignees or Longines Baume. You can also send a few images of the movement and its serial number to Longines. They will kindly inform you within a few days and it is a free service (on his website).
 
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Bernhard J.

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Wow, indeed a free service, now that is exceptionary and absolutely great. I would have thought that they ask 500+, like others. I have now sent an inquiry and will report about the answer.

Cheers, Bernhard
 

Bernhard J.

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Funny, I did not see this movement since decades anywhere and now not only the above, but also a defect movement for spares on sale. My "old" one is missing a screw since ever and this can now also be rectified at last (and I have further spares for both, although presumably never needed :D).
 

Bernhard J.

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Many thanks, Enrico.

Another interesting detail seems to be, that the serial number on the movement plate seems struck with the same punch numbers like the case serial number. Both by hand, by the way. Might it be that Longines delivered the movements without the serial number stuck, but only as an attached data sheet? And then the customer struck this serial number into both, movement and case? Or would the case maker have sent the case to Switzerland for striking of the case serial number matching the movement by Longines? The later would seem very unlikely, because two customs transitions would have to be handled.

Cheers, Bernhard
 

mosesgodfrey

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Thanks for sharing this one with us! Curious that the same font--in different point--was used. Personally, I think the sn on the plate would have to be there during production, to avoid damaging the mechanism after. Is it possible that the case was imported with the sn on it, then assayed? I suppose they could have been made & assayed, then sent to Longines to insert the movement (and stamp the matching number). The English regulations certainly make it sound like some folks were doing that.

I'm always interested to see the small changes and variations (over time or as options??) among same calibers. For instance, the Longines 19A at bottom link above has no "Click" marking, and there are multiple differences looking around the balance.

1668013403494.png
 
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eri231

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I have vision problems, but the numbers on the movement and on the case are different. Those on the case are clearly manual as well as different font, see the number six on the movement.
Regards enrico
 

Bernhard J.

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I'm always interested to see the small changes and variations (over time or as options??) among same calibers.

Then I have one for you, with a cock for the anchor, instead of the symmetrical bridge. And claimed to be made 1884, the same year as mine above. The logo is missing on the balance cock, but the movement is signed "Longines" and it is also a 19A.

19A variant.jpg
 
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Bernhard J.

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Those on the case are clearly manual as well as different font, see the number six on the movement.
Regards enrico
I agree that both are manual. But I felt that the fonts are the same, specifically looking at the "6" ...

Cheers, Bernhard
 

Dr. Jon

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The movement is shown on p99 of the Longines book by Patrick Linder. As Enrico wrote, it was introduced in 1880. (At the Heart of an Industrial Vocation Published by Longines)
 
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mosesgodfrey

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Then I have one for you, with a cock for the anchor, instead of the symmetrical bridge. And claimed to be made 1884, the same year as mine above. The logo is missing on the balance cock, but the movement is signed "Longines" and it is also a 19A.
The variants accumulate, at same timeframe! So there will be sub-variants of a 19A frame, similar to the later Longines nomenclature. If in escapement, possibly also in setting. Thanks, Bernhard, for adding yet another imponderable to my list ;)

At risk of infuriating any empiricists, I'll speculate the 4 & 8 in the caseback may indicate the subvariant, at least one indicating the setting mechanism (the early rocker, pin actuated at this location). One or both could also indicate the dial & hands to fit the case design.
 
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Bernhard J.

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I'm always interested to see the small changes and variations (over time or as options??) among same calibers. For instance, the Longines 19A at bottom link above has no "Click" marking, and there are multiple differences looking around the balance.
I have a watch marked Longines with the 19A since long and last evening replaced two screws of the lever bridge (one was missing) taken from a salvage movement acquired just recently. By this occasion I noted that this watch has a Breguet hairspring instead of a flat haispring. Of course, the regulator and the balance cock are variants, the later with respect to the position of the hairspring attachment. I might manage to make photos this weekend for comparison.

Cheers, Bernhard
 

Bernhard J.

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So, here are the photos of my Longines owned since decades for comparison with the above, in particular around the balance. Differences are marked and (aside the setting of jewels) relate mostly the this one having a Breguet hairspring instead of a flat one. Reinhold Scheffler, Thorn, was a retailer in West Prussia (now Poland).

Cheers, Bernhard

L1030682.JPG
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The dial unfortunately has hairlines. Aftzer decades they have reappeared. I should had the dial treated once again, they had been nearly invisible when done long ago. The hands seem too long, although I have seen these hands on other Longines.

L1030678.JPG
 

Incroyable

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So, here are the photos of my Longines owned since decades for comparison with the above, in particular around the balance. Differences are marked and (aside the setting of jewels) relate mostly the this one having a Breguet hairspring instead of a flat one. Reinhold Scheffler, Thorn, was a retailer in West Prussia (now Poland).

Cheers, Bernhard

View attachment 737206
View attachment 737207
View attachment 737208
View attachment 737209

The dial unfortunately has hairlines. Aftzer decades they have reappeared. I should had the dial treated once again, they had been nearly invisible when done long ago. The hands seem too long, although I have seen these hands on other Longines.

View attachment 737211
I've read that you can treat hairlines at home by soaking the dials in denture cleaner.
 

Bernhard J.

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I did not have to treat dials with hairlines since long, but recall that I used a basic (pH < 6) aequeos solution back then, followed by a rinsing step. Unfortunately I do not remember what the basic agent was. But it worked really well.

I will have a test with a denture cleaner :D

Cheers, Bernhard
 

gmorse

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Hi Bernhard,

Ingedients on the container, (my comments in italics):

Sodium Sulphate
Sodium Bicarbonate
Citric Acid
Sodium Carbonate
Malic Acid
Potassium Caroate (oxidising agent)
Polyethylene Glycol-150
Sodium Carbonate Peroxide (bleach activator)
Polyethylene Glycol-90 (surfactant?)
Aroma
Sulphamic Acid (descaler)
Dodecylbenzenesulphonate (detergent, surfactant)
Erythrosine (cosmetic colourant)

Regards,

Graham
 

Bernhard J.

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And this is how the cock of my recently bought spare parts 19A movement looks like. Flat hairspring link my "Sorley", but the endstone plate attached with the screws from above instead of from below the cock. And the hairspring block attachment is once more different.

Longines.png
 
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MrRoundel

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By coincidence, I have just been doing a little work on a very similar, but smaller, Longines. Mine has a serial number in the 330*** range, so production around 1883, and uses a flat HS, with the friction stud, like yours. Little bugger gave me one heck of a time lining up the pivots. It helped me figure out just how the lower 4th wheel jewel probably got broken. I believe mine is a caliber 14.25M, FWIW.

What made this assembly interesting is the fact that the movement uses those Swiss cam-locking screws to attach the dial. The kicker is that the upper part of these screws have to pass through the plate from the bottom, i.e., get set in the pillar-plate before assembly. Those, coupled with that screw that is marked "Click" on Bernard J.'s movement, that also passes through the upper plate from below, make lining things up tougher than normal. I believe it's because it eliminates a lot of the play that can be helpful when trying to get plates to drop over the pivots. There was no help here. Even the steady pins were tight. I had to use the plate screws and very carefully lower the plate a tiny bit at at time. It was a bugger. So if you're going to take yours down to C&O, be prepared. Yours looks in much better shape than the one on my bench, so you might fare better.

I hope it's OK that I took the liberty to use your image (Bernhard J.) to show the screws I'm referring to. I know that the "Click"/letdown screw is obvious.

Good luck with your 19A. Cheers.

L1030682.JPG
 
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Bernhard J.

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This one had a service (though long ago) and indeed this issue makes it a bit more challenging than with the usual cock or bridge movements. But so far I recall, it was not an all too difficult task (or I was lucky). For the recent fitting the "new" lever bridge and screws, the plate needed not to be removed, just the balance. The balance and balance cock is removable without removing the movement from the case.

Smaller sized movements, and in particular this kind of calibre, indeed often turn out to be very (!) challenging :D. And 14´´ is indeed quite small.

I do recall having back then forgotten to fit the dial screws prior to the plate, rats ... :D

Cheers, Bernhard

P.S.: Anyone may use my photos posted in this forum for own postings in this forum without my explicite permission and without the need to reference these (including modification of these photos). The only exception would be photos of others, which I have posted. These are easily identified by reference to the person having made these photos.
 
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MrRoundel

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Bernhard J. ,
Funny you would mention forgetting to place the dial screws prior to the first reassembly. Funny because yesterday, just after my last post, I realized that I had forgotten to replace the winding arbor, which also must go in before dropping the upper plate. So apart she came, and back to a bit of frustration with the pivots. It went faster this time because I reached for my #5 tweezers instead of trying to nudge and manipulate the escape wheel with non-grabbing tools. The tiny tips of the #5's allowed me to move the wobbly escape wheel around better by grabbing a spoke. This helped the plate to drop in much easier. It'll go in my notes to do this if I run into such a situation again. Usually I'm able to use a brass tapered pin in a pin-vise to get things lined up. Not this time. Cheers.
 
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MrRoundel

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Thanks for the tool-tip, Graham. You reminded me that there is a tool in my bench (oiler for scale) that was either made for lining up pivots or is a modified sewing tool. It probably would have fit the bill here, as the wire end is small enough to have gotten under the bridge to the escape wheel. But that's not half as much fun as :banghead: . :) Cheers.

DSC07021.JPG
 

svenedin

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Hi MrR,

This modified sewing needle is also useful for locating pivots in their proper places.

View attachment 737921

Regards,

Graham
There is a tool almost identical for clocks...............I have one somewhere. Much too big for a watch but exactly the same idea. It's for French clocks. Very fine pivots, ultra hard and ultra snappy.

It looks like this:

IMG_9364.jpeg
 
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eri231

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It was invoiced on 30 May 1885, but perhaps it was already in the UK much earlier because on 29 May there was the change of the letter from I to K.
Regards enrico
 
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John Matthews

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Enrico - as always you have the eye for detail :)

[AB] Arthur Baume's mark will be a sponsor's mark, by which I mean that I believe they will not have made the case. I do not know the trading relationship that existed, but I suspect the case was made by a London case maker for Baume. If that is true then it is possible that cases would have been ordered in small batches to fit specific movements, which would on receipt be sent for assay after being stamped [AB]. When they mated to the actual movement the serial number would have been added. This could easily explain why the hallmark was earlier than the date of the invoice.

The interesting question was the invoice just for the cost of the movement or the complete watch?

John
 

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