Long case, John Ebsworth,1656-1699

[JimmyOz]

I received an email last week from a friend asking if I could have a look at a clock, a friend of hers had, it was not working, she said it was an old clock. I asked if she could send me a few photos of the clock so I had an idea of what it was, below were the photos she sent. Blew me away when I seen them, did some research and John Ebsworth was Master of the Clockmakers Company London in 1697.
I have not been able to see the clock yet, however I am looking forward to having a look at the movement, I will post my own photos when I have the clock.
The thing is that this is the 2nd important clockmakers longcase clock in a semi-rural area of Australia the other one I did about 10 years ago was a Tomas Tompion longcase.
Anyway here is the photos of the clock and I think the lock is not original but apart from that everything looks okay?

 

[zedric]

Nice clock. I wonder about the backboard, as this doesn't have the colour or holes that you would expect in a clock of this age, and the hood if original might have been a lift-up hood, so you might want to look at the case overall. But it could just be in a great state of preservation and be all original.

 

[Mike Phelan]

Having minute and seconds hands would have made the clock after 1700. I agree about the back board - it seems as if it was replaced.

Lovely case, though

 

[novicetimekeeper]

Having minute and seconds hands would have made the clock after 1700. I agree about the back board - it seems as if it was replaced.

Lovely case, though

Not sure why you think this but it isn't correct

Nice clock. I wonder about the backboard, as this doesn't have the colour or holes that you would expect in a clock of this age, and the hood if original might have been a lift-up hood, so you might want to look at the case overall. But it could just be in a great state of preservation and be all original.

The case does look in excellent condition, so more pics of that, the seatboard on the side cheeks, whether the hood was once rising, pics of the movement, conctruction of case details and pics of higher resolution and larger file size from all angles. Also dial plate size.

You would expect to see the sides of the case convex as they shrink more on the inside. The backboard does not show any holes in the current view but it is quarter sawn oak so that is the correct timber.

 

[jmclaugh]

I'm not surprised at your reaction to the photos, it is a really lovely late 17th C longcase. It would be no surprise if a clock this old was not completely original and if it isn't it wouldn't bother me. It deserves to be running again.

 

[Thomas Sanguigni]

It certainly will be a nice day when you get to visit that clock. Please take more photos

 

[Mike Phelan]

Not sure why you think this but it isn't correct

Which?

 

[Bernhard J.]

Presumably that the clock is after 1700, because it has a minute hand. There are a number of clocks before 1700 having minute hands, I believe.

Cheers, Bernhard

P.S.: Just one example: https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/209296. Another: calendar clock; eight-day clock; long-case clock; clock-case | British Museum. The latter dated 1660-1670.

 

[novicetimekeeper]

Which?

The bit I quoted about minute and seconds. I explained about the backboard

 

[novicetimekeeper]

Huygens was experimenting with the pendulum in the mid 17thC, Clement is often cited as the first to use the second's or Royal pendulum, though that is disputed.

Here is one of his, dated to 1680 by this site.

Clement Long Case Clock.; William Clement; c.1680; BSEMS:1992.1.9 on eHive

An 8 day longcase clock in figured walnut case and hood with pierced cresting. The movement has a recoil escapement and count wheel strike, c.1680. By William Clement, London.

ehive.com

I think the signature on the chapter ring, the tudor rose centre, the minute numbering outside the divisions, the ringed winding holes, these all point to a later date, I would say 1690s.

 

[rmarkowitz1_cee4a1]

Nice clock. I wonder about the backboard, as this doesn't have the colour or holes that you would expect in a clock of this age, and the hood if original might have been a lift-up hood, so you might want to look at the case overall. But it could just be in a great state of preservation and be all original.

It's a pretty clock.

Also, frequently a "witness mark" or abrasion is caused by the pendulum bob on the backboard. This is lacking, too.

A picture of the back and with the hood removed might help?

RM

 

[Alex KVASHIN]

This clock could be month going one. Weights are big.

 

[novicetimekeeper]

The dial is very similar to my Thomas Speakman. I found that in the Netherlands in a made up case, it is now restored and in a contemporary provincial case. I'd put this at 1690s too.

 

[JimmyOz]

Thanks for the comments and the information.
The information I have;
The lady that owns the clock brought it out with her in 1960 from London and is now 90 years old and wants it repaired so it can be sold, however she thinks it is worth $100,000+ not for me to comment to her on that as I don't know, however doubt it.
The last photo shows most of the walnut cross banding is missing on each side of the trunk door, I hope she has it, if not it is something else I will have to fix.
I will take photos of what was asked off the case when I actually get to see it.

 

[zedric]

Unfortunately she is going to be disappointed by how prices have changed since the 1960s - even a Fromanteel with a lift up hood in a fancy showroom sells for a fraction of that now, and that was in Melbourne a few years ago - and prices haven't exactly climbed since then...

however, clocks of this quality don't sell all that often in Austrlalia, so she should get a fair price (at todays values) if she does sell it.

 

[demoman3955]

I have to ask this. I noticed the weights are fancy, and i was wondering if thats normal or would have maybe an option when the clock was made? The reason im wondering is i was under the assumption that most clocks that were always closed wouldnt be fancy at all. I can see the pendulum would be nice because its visable. My old tall case clocks are all bare cast iron weights and pendulums, but the pendulums all look like that one only no brass. Just wondering.

 

[novicetimekeeper]

I have to ask this. I noticed the weights are fancy, and i was wondering if thats normal or would have maybe an option when the clock was made? The reason im wondering is i was under the assumption that most clocks that were always closed wouldnt be fancy at all. I can see the pendulum would be nice because its visable. My old tall case clocks are all bare cast iron weights and pendulums, but the pendulums all look like that one only no brass. Just wondering.

London clocks of this period, and better provincial clocks, would have brass cased lead weights, and brass cased lead bobs. Lead weights cased or uncased were standard throughout the brass dial period, cast iron weights came in with painted dials.

 

[Ralph]

How big is the clock? What size is the dial?

Ralph

 

[JimmyOz]

How big is the clock? What size is the dial?

I have not had a chance to view it yet.

 

[demoman3955]

London clocks of this period, and better provincial clocks, would have brass cased lead weights, and brass cased lead bobs. Lead weights cased or uncased were standard throughout the brass dial period, cast iron weights came in with painted dials.

makes sense, because mine are painted dials. Before i got these tallcase clocks, ive had becker 2 and 3 weights and all brass weights and pendulums, but are open to see. It caught me off guard when i first seen the cast iron parts on the older clocks..

 

[DeanT]

How big is the clock? What size is the dial?

Ralph

Ralph's observation of the size of the dial will give a good determination of the age. Its most likely 11" given the spandrel style. The convex moulding under the hood and style of the case I would think give an age of 1695 to 1700.

There are some nice clocks which exist in Australia although they don't appear too often for sale. Transport for longcases is problematic given their size which does cut down the marketability outside Australia. It would be fairly easy to give a good estimate of its sale price in the UK but in Australia the price is much harder to forecast.

See me a PM if you would like to discuss further.

Cheers
Dean

 

[JimmyOz]

Update, Part1
I went to the Ladies house, however I forgot my camera, therefore I will take photos of the case when I take the movement back. Anyway the time train was working to a fashion, however the strike train was not.
Looking at the 2nd photo the warning wheel had lost it pivot.



Warning wheel, and repair




There was other things wrong with the movementm however trying to keep the files large I need to start another post as the site will not let me load any more. I will do this tomorrow Oz time.

 

[DeanT]

Did you measure the dial? Lovely movement.

 

[JimmyOz]

To address some of the questions;
The dial is 11" square.
The total height of the case is 6'.3".
I am not sure of the duration as I have to get catgut to replace the steel.
The backboard has been replaced, however it was some time ago, my observation of the hood and the cheeks is that it was done when the hood was altered from a lift off to a pull off. If you look at the back of the movement the top right hand post has a threaded hole that serves no purpose and my thinking it was something to do with a clip of some sort to release the hood? The only hole in the back board is well placed behind the pendulum.
The sides of the case are convex, I pushed one and it flattened a bit I would guess the thickness would be about 3/8" no splits or cracks.
What I thought that the front was missing some cross banding each side of the door was incorrect, it is just a very bad color matching. This may be original though as the shrinkage under the veneer of the inside is more than the outside is constant.
The inlays are in fantastic shape none missing and no blistering at all.

 

[novicetimekeeper]

The countwheel is on the greatwheel at the end of the barrel, so it is an 8 day clock.

 

[JimmyOz]

A few things that needed addressed on the movement;
Below photo shows the fan pinion very badly rutted, I think this is why the pivot sheered off the warning wheel. When I re-pivoted the warning wheel I took some off the end of the arbor and compensated with a bush in a bush and set it a little inside the plate so that the warning wheel would catch the good part of the pinion, the mesh is a lot less jumpy now.


I used a lot of bushes in bushes on this movement, as you can see a few different repair methods were used in the past, although not one repairer name or date on the hole thing?