Logo vandalization

clarke

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I bought this clock in 1984 on Cat Street in Hong Kong.

Its maker has always been a mystery to me as there are no trademarks on the movement and the logo on the face has been completely rubbed out. It’s not a case of clumsy dial cleaning – the one spot on the dial has been specifically obliterated.

On the Savage and Polite’s Antique Clocks and Price Guide”, I recently was looking for a Mauthe like one I have. While doing so, I noticed a wall clock very close to mine: similar shape, same size, materials and design. The numeral styles are identical and both have 24hr. indicators. The S&P description begins: Manufacturer: Mauthe Clock Co – C.1925, Germany, Frederick Mauthe, 8-day oak cased wall clock...

If my clock is indeed a Mauthe, that may explain the missing identification. It was made in the post WWI mid-20‘s Germany.

According to a British website site – http://www.clockswatches.com/foreign/showpage.php?em=1554 – Mauthe had a number of different logos over the years and the one registered in 1925 was an eagle which was a stylized version of the German coat of arms.

Of course the ‘30‘s witnessed the rise of the Third Reich and the subsequent horrors of WWII. The Mauthe eagle logo was very similar to the symbol of the Nazi party and it makes sense to me that someone simply didn’t want it on their clock (whereas a Junghans logo, for example, would not be offensive.)

Comments? – Is my mystery clock a Mauthe?
 

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Oled

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At time when Art Deco ruled the world all cases were very silimar to yours. But firstly, all Mauthe movements were signed with their logo. Is there any other numbers or writings on the backplate? And secondly, I never saw Mauthe logo on the dial, in some cases usially it was just a writings "MAUTHE".

Oleg
 

Steven Thornberry

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Japanese clocks often had manufacturer logos on the dial above the hand shaft. And the Japanese also made this style clock. If you bought it in Hong Kong, possibly it is Japanese, or at least Oriental. Best way to find out is to look at the movement for clues.
 

harold bain

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Clarke, is there any clues on the chime rod block? Mauthe did make clocks like this with no logo on the movement. I have two of them, both with Divina Gong on the chime rod block. Let us know what yours may have.
 

Spaceman Spiff

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While erasing a logo that might suggest Nazi/German origins might have a certain logic to it, I find it much more common to see Japanese or other Asian logos erased to disguise their origin and make them more desirable to western collectors.

Just my thoughts. I am by no means an expert. As Steven and Harold have suggested, a look at the movement & chime rod block may provide more clues.
 

new2clocks

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At time when Art Deco ruled the world all cases were very silimar to yours. But firstly, all Mauthe movements were signed with their logo. Is there any other numbers or writings on the backplate? And secondly, I never saw Mauthe logo on the dial, in some cases usially it was just a writings "MAUTHE".

Oleg
Oleg,

Mauthe did indeed have their emblem on the face of their clocks, but I agree that this rarely happened. See below.

Also, the following link will give some information on the logo dates for Mauthe trademarks.

https://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?t=24274&highlight=singapore

Finally, my observations are that the Mauthe clocks that had "Mauthe" in script on the face of their clocks - at least the clocks that I have seen - tend to be much later versions - 1950's and 1960's. Mauthe was in business until 1976.

Regards.
 

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Oled

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Thanks, new2clocks, that's really something new to me :^
Regards,
Oleg
 

Kim St.Dennis Sr.

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Mauthe (1844 to 1975) used the logo of an eagle clutching a circle in several different styles from 1895 forward. I have an small Alarm Clock by Mauthe with the logo on the dial. The former owner was convinced it was made during WW2 because of the Mauthe Logo. But the clock was actually made in the 20's, the logo is not the art-deco logo, but the one just before it.
 

clarke

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Gentlemen,
Thank you for your thoughts. Since I can't figure out how to reply to multiple quotes in one post, I'll respond with multiple posts.
best.
c.
-> posts merged by system <-
Japanese clocks often had manufacturer logos on the dial above the hand shaft. And the Japanese also made this style clock. If you bought it in Hong Kong, possibly it is Japanese, or at least Oriental. Best way to find out is to look at the movement for clues.
Steven,
It’s possible it is a Japanese clock. I was recently amazed that one of mine that I long thought was a Sessions, was in fact, a Seikosha...very well made, inside and out.
But Hong Kong doesn’t necessarily lead to Oriental clocks. Remember, it was a British colony and international entrepot for over 150 years. Goods of all types were imported from Europe and America and the residuals are commonplace (though not clocks anymore). I’ve seen (and bought) a number western clocks here: Junghans, Hamburg American and New Haven. And certainly there are many Japanese and Chinese clocks here – I have a number of them too.

But I'm most curious about the "clues" you mentioned. What are they?
thanks.
c.
-> posts merged by system <-
At time when Art Deco ruled the world all cases were very silimar to yours. But firstly, all Mauthe movements were signed with their logo. Is there any other numbers or writings on the backplate? And secondly, I never saw Mauthe logo on the dial, in some cases usially it was just a writings "MAUTHE".

Oleg
Hello Oleg,
There are no markings on the back plate. On the issue of dial logos on Mauthe clocks, all I can say is that my only Mauthe has one. See attached.
thanks.
c.
 

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clarke

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Clarke, is there any clues on the chime rod block? Mauthe did make clocks like this with no logo on the movement. I have two of them, both with Divina Gong on the chime rod block. Let us know what yours may have.
Hi Harold,
The base of the gong does have figures. “HA6”. But curiously, they’re upside down. Whoever made this clock probably used this mount in different configurations. The base mount plate shows “H61”. Any help? Does the style of the base itself tell you anything?
thanks.
c.
-> posts merged by system <-
Mauthe (1844 to 1975) used the logo of an eagle clutching a circle in several different styles from 1895 forward. I have an small Alarm Clock by Mauthe with the logo on the dial. The former owner was convinced it was made during WW2 because of the Mauthe Logo. But the clock was actually made in the 20's, the logo is not the art-deco logo, but the one just before it.

Hello Kim,
My knowledge of Mauthe logos was found at: http://www.gleuenberger.com/clocks/MautheClocks.htm
 

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Steven Thornberry

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Steven,
It’s possible it is a Japanese clock. I was recently amazed that one of mine that I long thought was a Sessions, was in fact, a Seikosha...very well made, inside and out.
But Hong Kong doesn’t necessarily lead to Oriental clocks. Remember, it was a British colony and international entrepot for over 150 years. Goods of all types were imported from Europe and America and the residuals are commonplace (though not clocks anymore). I’ve seen (and bought) a number western clocks here: Junghans, Hamburg American and New Haven. And certainly there are many Japanese and Chinese clocks here – I have a number of them too.

But I'm most curious about the "clues" you mentioned. What are they?
thanks.
c.
I was mostly curous about what the movement looked like. The Japanese movements were very similar to American movements, and I wondered whether a view of the movement might not put us closer to the origin of the clock itself.
 

clarke

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I was mostly curous about what the movement looked like. The Japanese movements were very similar to American movements, and I wondered whether a view of the movement might not put us closer to the origin of the clock itself.
Steve,
This is the only one I can find. I can take it apart if more pix are needed.
Incidentally, you have a thread going on "Oriental Clocks". I'm putting together some stuff to post there.
thanks.
c.
 

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Steven Thornberry

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Steve,
This is the only one I can find. I can take it apart if more pix are needed.
Incidentally, you have a thread going on "Oriental Clocks". I'm putting together some stuff to post there.
thanks.
c.
Thanks, Clarke. The movement, so far as I can tell, does not appear oriental. We may be able to put that speculation to rest.
 

Kim St.Dennis Sr.

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Hi
These are the logo's in the Eagle clutching a balls I have been able to find.

I can understand someone mistaking the Mauthe Logo for a Nazi symbol. Even though Mauthe started using this 1st Logo in 1895.

The Nazis stole symbols from everyone. The Swastika came from India and the American Indians and means something else entirely and harmless. They twisted it and ruined it for several cultures.

If we can get a few on the members post photos of their Mauthe box clock movements we might be able to identify your clock for sure.
 

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Charles E. Davis

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I can't pin anything down, just stir the waters a bit.
The clock appears to me to be German. A few points--brass dial, the 24 hour dial, the dial surround, the gong base, case style, lack of indication of the words "Trade Mark" on the sides of the dial logo, etc. None of these rule it out but the very fact that you associated it with German reinforces my opinion.
But (beyond that) The Mauthe trademark was registered in Japan in 1924 to an Osaka company Muraki. This was included in a book printed in Japan Antique Hanging Clocks by Yukohiko Toda. It was published by Tombow-Shuppan in 2001. My impression is that in addition to the early importers of American clocks they also imported German clocks. This company was probably an importer who wanted to stack out his position in Japan.
I've described a tangled web, and somehow the clock got to China. If only it could talk!
https://mb.nawcc.org/F01_5a1.gifYou can go to

http://japaneseclocklogos.com/alphalogo/F01_5a1.gif

and see Alpha Logo F1 for comparison.
 
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clarke

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Gentlemen,

Some of the pix of the clock I sent are wrong. Actually I have two very similar models and in an attempt not to confuse things, I decided to center the discussion around just one – the one with the obviously defaced trademark. But, alas, I confused myself and switched some of the shots.

I’ll try and clarify:
There’s a Gong and a BimBam. The BimBam is the one with the scratched out logo and the one the new pix represent (the Gong clock also is without any identification, but there is no evidence that any purposeful defacement has occurred.)

So to revert to your questions about the movement, the gong base (which in this movement is the base of the bim bam rods) and markings on the back of the plate, the correct photos of the BimBam clock are below. I can only make out the last two numbers “12” on the rod base.

Charles’ theory about the Japanese route is fascinating. But if it was sold in Japan with the Mauthe logo, I don’t think it would be any less offensive. Particularly after the national disaster of WWII, the Axis (Germany, Italy, Japan) connotations of the logo would not in the least be comfortable. Charles is right: if they could only talk!

Regarding Kim’s eagle samples: it makes sense that a German company would adopt the eagle as it’s been a part of the German coat of arms for a long, long time (a few samples from Wikipedia are attached.)

The point is that Mauthe adopted the version that is was essentially a Nazi logo with “FMS” rather than a swastika in the birds talons – an uncomfortable image to say the least.
For example, according to George Gleuenberger (a Mauthe afficionado) – http://www.gleuenberger.com/clocks/MautheClocks.htm“By 1923, 60% German clocks exported to London were Mauthe. In 1930, 2000 workers produced 45,000 clocks and watches a week.” This would lead me to conclude that there would be many Mauthe clocks hanging on walls that were shaking and crumbling during the Germany’s London Blitz in late ’39-early-’40. I would imagine a Nazi-esque symbol would be unpopular... Gentlemen, we have motive!

At the risk of kicking a dead (or failing) horse, all this brings me back to the original point of this thread:

1. Was the dial trademark scratched out because of it’s offensive symbology? and 2. Assuming the hardware passes muster, does that imply that the clock is a Mauthe?
Of course it could… but I have no way of knowing. It is, however, fun thinking about it and discussing it with you guys.

Again, my red-faced apologies for the mixed up pix.
c.
 

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zepernick

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The point is that Mauthe adopted the version that is was essentially a Nazi logo with “FMS” rather than a swastika in the birds talons – an uncomfortable image to say the least.
There is a widespread if morning-after belief that Mauthe adopted a logo that was similar to the one used by the Nazis. It might be stressed, however, as for example "Droba" did on the Deutsche Gesellschaft für Chronometrie's Forum, that the opposite was the case:

"Mauthe hat dieses Adler-Zeichen schon Ende der 20er Jahre schützen lassen. Als dann 1933 die Nazis an die Macht kamen, haben Sie Mauthe mehrfach aufgefordert, das Firmenzeichen zu ändern, was Mauthe aber verweigert hat."

This variant on their logo had already been registered as a trademark by the late 1920s. And when the Nazis later came into power, they demanded several times that Mauthe change their logo, which Mauthe refused to do.

I don't know if anyone has bothered to check trade ads in the 1920s to see when Mauthe did first use the trademark. But from what's at hand, it was in use before the late 1920s -- and at least by 1924. It's shown among the TMs in the Diebeners Uhrmacher-Kalender for 1925 (i.e. published in late 1924), see below. A DUK from 1929 has the same spiffy illustration.

At the end of 1924, Hitler was just getting out of jail.

Clarke, the movement shown in your last posting is most likely from Wehrle. Both the distinctive pendulum leader and the rack fit those used by Wehrle. I'm not aware of any publicly available catalogue matter for them, sorry.

Regards,
Zep
 

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clarke

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Hey Zep.
Very interesting. Thanks for the info. However, who copied whom is a moot point. The Mauthe logo was what it was, and that might be why (if it was on the clock dial) it was erased.
On the clock being a Wehrle? I wander the net a lot looking at clocks and I never heard of that name until I googled it and evidently, they made really wonderful musical clocks. There are some fascinating movies of them in operation on YouTube.
Where can I learn more about the brand? A search on NAWCC turns up zilch.
Why do you think there are no Wehrle "boxes" on ebay?
c.
 

zepernick

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(1) However, who copied whom is a moot point. The Mauthe logo was what it was, and that might be why (if it was on the clock dial) it was erased.

(2) On the clock being a Wehrle? I wander the net a lot looking at clocks and I never heard of that name until I googled it...

(3) ...and evidently, they made really wonderful musical clocks. There are some fascinating movies of them in operation on YouTube.

(4) Where can I learn more about the brand? A search on NAWCC turns up zilch.

(5) Why do you think there are no Wehrle "boxes" on ebay?
Greetings Clarke --

So I don't get confused :)I've separated your comments and questions into five minis (as above).

(1) I know what you mean, and could have been more specific. My point however was that neither copied either, despite the widespread belief today that Mauthe copied the Nazi. If one is concerned with Mauthe's reputation, this isn't a moot point.

(2) There is a tendency I suspect for a handful of the better known names to be, uh, better known and the Net reflects this popularity. That this is circular is why I suppose when an unmarked movement comes up these names are suggested.

By contrast, there were a very large number of German manufacturers making clock movements, and a large number were not specifically marked. One major German supplier to the trade published volumes which would help German clockmakers (not e.g. hobbyists or collectors) identify a movement enough to, say, order the appropriate mainspring replacements. They might still not know who made the movement, but if a clockmaker had one with such and such characteristics, it would take s-a-s mainsprings.

I happen to have one of these volumes (they're not common) from 1957. And the rack and pendulum leader on your movement do match some which -- nicely enough -- are also credited to a maker, Wehrle. Please note that these illustrations are for whatever the trade supplier (not Wehrle) was willing to stock mainsprings for in 1957 among the hundreds of movements of all types from -- just a sec I need to count -- 110 different firms.

Two illustrations from this volume are below. But it's a technical source, and still protected by its publisher.

(3) Wehrle is a fairly common name in the Black Forest area. One source for instance lists 70 clockmakers with that surname. The musical clocks on YouTube are probably from Emilian Wehrle, and the E. Wehrle firm.

(4) This is an interesting question. The problem isn't that information isn't available.

As one might expect, when it comes to the German clockmaking industry, most of the literature and most of what is best is in German. Moreover, some of the standard references are in German "only." A case in point is the standard reference to the German clockmaking industry, Hans-Heinrich Schmid's (2005) Lexikon der Deutschen Uhrenindustrie 1850-1980.

This volume is where one would first go (and sometimes last) for information on any of the hundreds of firms in this period, if that is you can read German or convince yourself you might be able to except for a lot of the verbs and some of the nouns. By contrast, one of the most frequently consulted sources in English for factory-made clocks (as opposed to makers of traditional Black Forest-type clocks, e.g. Emilian Wehrle) is a volume concerned with trademarks.

So if you went to the Lexikon, you have information about (your) Wehrle that goes over pages 593ff (I've taken the liberty of attaching them, if in small size, just to show "how much" as they're copyright). The trademark index has what's shown in the last thumbnail, below.

(5) Dunno. No doubt one reason is that they were small compared with the Junghanses, HAUs, Mauthes, Kienzles, Beckers, etc. Then too, some e-folk might not realize that an unmarked movement might be from the firm. Or -- a long shot :)-- someone for some unknown reason has scratched out the name on the dials.

Regards
Zepernick
 

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Neeth

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Just an observation on the swastica (sp.) and Native Americans. I once got the snot bubbles beat out of me by a Native American classmate, all the while he was remonstrating me about the continued stupidity of all the white men who couldn't tell the difference between their tribal sign and that of the Third Reich.:0: (the arms on the ends point in the other direction):eek: I won't mention it again, it's too painfull.

Neeth
 

clarke

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Greetings Zep,

I'm going to risk wearing out my welcome here, but....

The other clock I referred to in this thread (NoName Gong) is also a mystery.
No markings anywhere. When you get the time (no urgency, for sure) could you see if you can match up any of the components with your German parts books? It sounds like an exercise using one of those "enemy aircraft silhouette identification" charts.
When you get the time... no hurry.
I've learned a lot. Thanks.
c.
 

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zepernick

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Sorry Clarke, no close-enough matches in the '57 reference on this one. The only pendulum leaders that they show with a similarly "cup" shaped hole at the lower end are also identified as from Wehrle. And as we were taught, it takes more -- around 4.23 cups -- to make a leader.:) Do visit with us again! Best regards, Zep
 

clarke

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Sorry Clarke, no close-enough matches in the '57 reference on this one. The only pendulum leaders that they show with a similarly "cup" shaped hole at the lower end are also identified as from Wehrle. And as we were taught, it takes more -- around 4.23 cups -- to make a leader.:) Do visit with us again! Best regards, Zep
Hi Zep,
Thanks for trying. I'm afraid I don't understand what you were taught about the "cups". Can you explain? Thanks.
c.
 

A. R. Mauthe III

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Hi y’all,
I’m super late to this party, but I’d just like to confirm that that is in fact a Mauthe. The bum bam, not the gong. That bim bam is a classic Mauthe movement, the font is perfect for 1920’s Mauthes, and the weathering at the top clearly indicates the former presence of the triangular Mauthe plate reading “Made in Germany” with the maker’s mark which was used on English imported clocks of the 1920’s, instead of the usual adornment used on German models. That one is very rare, as most German clocks in England were destroyed or scrapped for brass and steel during the war. Yours probably made it through the war BECAUSE the plate was removed and the logo rubbed out by somebody who refused to part with their (expensive) imported clock. Oh and FYI, that gong clock’s font is consistent with Gebrüder Jauch KG in the 30’s.
 

clarke

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Hi y’all,
I’m super late to this party, but I’d just like to confirm that that is in fact a Mauthe. The bum bam, not the gong. That bim bam is a classic Mauthe movement, the font is perfect for 1920’s Mauthes, and the weathering at the top clearly indicates the former presence of the triangular Mauthe plate reading “Made in Germany” with the maker’s mark which was used on English imported clocks of the 1920’s, instead of the usual adornment used on German models. That one is very rare, as most German clocks in England were destroyed or scrapped for brass and steel during the war. Yours probably made it through the war BECAUSE the plate was removed and the logo rubbed out by somebody who refused to part with their (expensive) imported clock. Oh and FYI, that gong clock’s font is consistent with Gebrüder Jauch KG in the 30’s.
View attachment 631512 This is your missing plate
Whoa!
Hello, Mr. A.R. Mauthe (coincidence?... maybe not)
What a nice, eleven years later, out-of-the-blue surprise.
Your input pretty much settles, for me anyway, the question of whether my bim-bam is a Mauthe, and the reason that the identification has been obscured. Your explanation makes a lot of sense.
Re: Triangular plate. The shape of the triangular plate pic you sent seems to match with the discolored wood on the box crown. I say “seems to” as the edges of the wood “shadow” shape have some curves, à la common applied wood ornaments. But it’s definitely a general triangle of the same proportions so maybe there could have been subtile modifications to the identification plate.
The point is that prying that crown plate/emblem off, along with the logo on the clock face being rubbed off, the clock’s superficial identification has been eliminated. That makes it (sorta/abundantly) clear that someone was trying to save their clock from the WWII bullet makers brigade! Great story!!
I further wonder if that means the clock made its way to Hong Kong after the war? Or prior, but being in a British colony, a similar “confiscate the Mauthe’s” program was initiated there too. Again, great story.
Reading through the entire thread again, was fun. Such a long time ago.
Anyway, eleven years later, thanks a lot for your expertise. Very enlightening. And for sure,
a real treat.
Happy New Year. Best to you and yours. And stay safe.
c.
 
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A. R. Mauthe III

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Whoa!
Hello, Mr. A.R. Mauthe (coincidence?... maybe not)
What a nice, eleven years later, out-of-the-blue surprise.
It is not coincidence. That Mauthe line is a parallel of mine. My great great grandfather came over to America and I’m pretty sure HIS grandfather was Freidrich’s brother. But I know they stayed in touch. That’s why my great grandpa and his German cousin Alfred Mauthe share a name. But yeah, we’re the American cousins. And I’m tracking as much back as I can.
 
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I can't locate the images at the moment, but I do have a high end dual-chime Gustav Becker mantle clock where the logo was obliterated (drilled out with what looks like a Forstner bit). It's in the same date ranges, 1930s.
 

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