Locks and Drops - please, no!

Discussion in '400-Day & Atmos' started by tracerjack, Feb 11, 2019.

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  1. tracerjack

    tracerjack Registered User
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    First some background. I have three mini Kundos with plates 1379D (1955) , 1381A (1965) and 1406H (1970). For ease of reference, let's call them Al, Bob and Carl. Al was missing the verge and EW assembly. Carl was more of a mess and not as attractive, so I decided to use Carl to fix Al. Unfortunately, Carl had a small nick in the EW pivot. Al was my preferred clock. I wasn't sure I could smooth out Carl's EW, so I took Bob's verge, EW and third wheel and put it in AL. Al is now running perfectly. Yah! So then, I polished up the EW pivot of Carl's and placed its EW, verge and third wheel in Bob.

    Now to the problem. After doing the wheel tests, one at a time and altogether, the EW in Bob turned freely with 2 clicks. At that point, I felt pretty confident the pivot was good. Assembled the suspension spring, and hung the pendulum. I had Bob running for two days. All seemed fine. I then decided to finish the polish job. Once I put the stand back together, Bob no longer runs. In watching the EW, I can now see (which I did not before) a definite longer run of the EW during the entrance lock than on an exit lock.

    My question is - Even though I can see absolutely no evidence of someone having changed the pallets, does the fact that I can see a difference in entrance and exit lock mean I need to go where I have never gone before - adjusting locks and drops? Please, I hope someone can say, "No, since you had the clock running, what you need to do is...
     
  2. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
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    How was Bob running? What was the amount of over swing and was it even? You then mentioned "finish the polish job". What does that mean?

    As for adjusting locks/drops, I've been pretty fortunately to not have to do that, except on a few rare occasions. I just finished a Kern and Sohne clock. I manually advanced the anchor and looked at the locks and drops. I wasn't too happy with the drops...one side being more than the other. I slept on it overnight and decided to just go for it. My rationale was that it was pretty clear that the clock had not been touched by anyone before me. So, that must have meant that it came from the factory that way. I finished the setup and put the clock in motion. I was quite pleased with total rotation and amount of over swing. I'm not going to worry about it given that the clock performed well.

    Kurt
     
  3. tracerjack

    tracerjack Registered User
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    #3 tracerjack, Feb 11, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2019
    Bob had 270 degree swing, which is including good over swing. Finishing the polish job means the movement base plate, the columns, base and pendulum. I polish the movement plates (if needed) and crown at the same time I clean the the barrel mainspring and gear pivots, etc. Kurt, your story is encouraging. I think if I give it time to sink in, I might adjust the pallets just for the experience. But first, I think I might separate the plates and check everything from scratch so I know its nothing else. I kind of remember reading something about the fork changing the locks or drops, can't remember which. I'll have to go back and do more studying.
     
  4. etmb61

    etmb61 Registered User
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    I would suggest that since you moved escapement parts from one clock to another that the factory adjustment is gone. Each of these clocks are individuals, and the plates, escape wheels, and anchors are adjusted together as a set. You may get lucky and get one that works after swapping parts. I haven't had that experience.

    Eric
     
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  5. tracerjack

    tracerjack Registered User
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    Excellent point. I didn’t think about that. Most likely I got lucky on the first one. Fortunately, I love puzzles, so will enjoy trying to figure this one out. I think I have unconsciously been avoiding the locks and drops area of clock repair, so this will force me to get in there and learn how to do it.
     
  6. etmb61

    etmb61 Registered User
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    Good luck with that! I hate to say it but my solution to a small Kundo clock I was having months of frustration with was to sell it on ebay. I do feel much better now.

    Eric
     
  7. tracerjack

    tracerjack Registered User
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    Actually, it might be better if I put put things back in Carl and see what happens. If the verge and EW work there, then it’s just a matter of swapping dials and stands.
     
  8. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
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    I lost sight of all the swapping you were doing. I agree with Eric that moving critical parts around negates any factory settings. I would think that the anchor and pin are the most critical and certainly the EW that it is paired with.

    Kurt
     
  9. MartinM

    MartinM Registered User

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    I'll concur with the others. Changing the factory setting is almost never a great idea. It's much easier to change the pretty parts out than to fuss with escape geometry in a clock that will fight you at every step.
    That said, the fork can amplify these out of adjustment escapement scenarios. You can be a bit more sure it's an adjustment issue for the EW by:

    • Assuring the fork clearance is correct. Not usually a problem on these because the fork is either fully enclosed or too robust to bend easily.
    • Wind the clock and manually manipulate the escapement without the suspension installed.
    • Let it drop to one side and manually manipulate the anchor pin back to center and see where the EW tooth is on the pallet impulse face. It should be about 1/4 to 1/3 of the way into imparting impulse across the pallet face.
    • Then do the same thing on the other side. if the adjustment is off, one or both of these tests will fail as the pallet isn't even on the impulse yet or is halfway or better into it.
     
  10. tracerjack

    tracerjack Registered User
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    #10 tracerjack, Feb 12, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2019
    Due to the postings by Eric, Kurt, and MartinM, that swapping parts can cause trouble, I decided to try using all of Carl's internal parts and put them in Bob's plates, rather than just the verge and EW. If that didn't work, next plan was using Carl's plates. You may ask why I didn't use Carl's plates from the get go, but they were so filthy and tarnished, I was hoping to put off cleaning up that mess until I had to. Once assembled in Bob's plates, the locks and drops look fine, and the clock has been working for a couple of hours now. I can only assume the entire gear assembly had something to do with it, but I can't be certain. It was a good learning experience. I never considered that each clock would be fine tuned as an individual assembly. Mass produced made me think they were carbon copies, which I have learned through this they are not.
     
  11. KurtinSA

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    Once all the parts were transferred from Carl to Bob, the only difference would be the position of the eccentric. Can you tell visually if there's a noticeable difference in the location of the pivot hole in the two plates, Bob and Carl? It's still a wonder that the movement from one clock would work in another set of front/back plates...again, the issue with the eccentric.

    Not sure what the big deal is about cleaning Carl's plates. I've run across some pretty filthy plates. I find it cathartic to spend the time to buff, polish, rinse, repeat...then stand back and marvel at how much better they look.

    Kurt
     
  12. tracerjack

    tracerjack Registered User
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    Copied this down and put it in my "how to" book. Thanks MartinM for posting this.
     
  13. tracerjack

    tracerjack Registered User
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    I did match the two plates, and under my highest mag lens, they appeared identical. In Appendix #77 of the Guide, it infers that the only changes to the Kundo miniature movements were in the dial and bracket. One thing I noticed was that this time the plates went together far easier than before. Perhaps the meshing of the gear 'family' affected the pivot positions for the better. When all the pivots fell into place on a single go round, I knew something was different. As far as cleaning Carl's plates, you have a valid point. My excuse, lame as it might be, is that I had just polished two entire miniatures that weren't filthy like Carl, but plenty tarnished, and my fingers were getting sore at that point. Particularly over the pendulums. Cleaning that ridge around the solid weights is a real headache. So, it just seemed easier to me to fuss with the movements a bit more before tackling another clean job.

    Bob is still running strong.
     
  14. MartinM

    MartinM Registered User

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    Just for clarity.
    The word "eccentric" should be "peninsula". KundOs never had an eccentric.
     
  15. etmb61

    etmb61 Registered User
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    Never say never!
     
  16. tracerjack

    tracerjack Registered User
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    Both mini Kundos are still going fine with their transplanted parts. While it can be done, I see now it is not something one should do without pausing to carefully consider the consequences.
     

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