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LOCK AND DROP QUESTION

bangster

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I'm going to ask y'all a question I thought I knew the answer to. But now I'm not so certain.

My other bête noir, besides the eternal ST hybrid, is this Ingraham half-deadbeat.
I thought I had it running right. But now it won't keep running a-tall. The problem is lack of impulse. The EW tooth is landing on the impulse face of the entrance pallet instead of the locking surface. So there's no lock; so there's no run; so there's no adequate impulse.

I need to increase lock on the entrance pallet. Do I do that by BENDING THE PALLETS, or by MOVING THE ANCHOR WITH RESPECT TO THE EW.

I've re-read all the notes and literature and have been unable to find a straightforward answer.

So I'm seeking y'all's opinion. Do I fiddle with the pallets or do I fiddle with the anchor. Has to be one or the other.

Please enlighten me.
 

Willie X

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Usually, I would move the pallets deeper (in) about .010" and see what happens. WIllie X
 

R. Croswell

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I'm going to ask y'all a question I thought I knew the answer to. But now I'm not so certain.

My other bête noir, besides the eternal ST hybrid, is this Ingraham half-deadbeat.
I thought I had it running right. But now it won't keep running a-tall. The problem is lack of impulse. The EW tooth is landing on the impulse face of the entrance pallet instead of the locking surface. So there's no lock; so there's no run; so there's no adequate impulse.

I need to increase lock on the entrance pallet. Do I do that by BENDING THE PALLETS, or by MOVING THE ANCHOR WITH RESPECT TO THE EW.

I've re-read all the notes and literature and have been unable to find a straightforward answer.

So I'm seeking y'all's opinion. Do I fiddle with the pallets or do I fiddle with the anchor. Has to be one or the other.

Please enlighten me.
The problem is that you likely will need to do both adjustments. You increase the lock by moving the verge closer to the escape wheel........... but if you find that the escapement hangs up before you get enough lock then you need to change the spacing between pallets, then try again.

RC
 
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Matt Parker

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The entrance drop is adjusted by moving the pallets closer/further apart. Exit drop is adjusted by changing the distance of the escape wheel from the anchor. When adjusting escapements start with the entrance pallet adjustment first (in your case you will want to move the pallets closer together). After you have the entrance locking properly then you may adjust the exit drop.
 

bangster

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Not asking about drop. Asking about lock. When I get lock answered, maybe I'll look at drop too. o_O
Thanks for your reply.
 

Vernon

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This information from the late Scottie had helped me. It was for an anniversary clock but should apply.

The adjustment commences with entrance drop. Drops MUST be equal and minimum. If entrance drop is not minimal, then you'll CLOSE the pallets - either one - until entrance drop is minimal. I use a vernier caliper to measure gap - record it before change, so you can track amounts of change in gap. If now it does not unlock with minimal entrance drop - you'll need to raise anchor only until it unlocks and repeat exercise, checking entrance drop again.
 

shutterbug

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Yes, that is the best way to approach it. Start with entrance drop (which will also effect your lock) and then adjust exit. When you get that right, the lock issue should disappear as well. Remember to check first with a file so you don't break it ;)
 

R. Croswell

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Bangs, I think part of the confusion is because there are no separate adjustments for lock and drop. When you increase the lock you simultaneously decrease the drop. One could say that you need to decrease the drop, or one could say that you need to increase the lock - both meaning the same thing. Any adjustment of pallet spacing and any adjustment of verge depth will affect both lock and drop. On a deadbeat like this, once you have sufficient lock at the entrance pallet to lock on the dead face, there is nothing to be gained by increasing the lock further. At that point you check whether the drops on to (or off of if you prefer) the entrance and exit pallet are about equal. If the drop on to the exit pallet is excessive then close the pallet spacing .002" or so, reset the verge depth for dead face lock and reevaluate. repeat until the drops are equal and locking is just on the dead faces. The only caveat being that the pallet spacing must be close enough for the escapement to actually release teeth in a tooth by tooth tic-tock way as the crutch is moved back and forth by hand. If the escapement does not function at all that is an indication that you have an incorrect verge or someone has seriously messed with it.

Don't apply the rules for a recoil escapement to this one. In a recoil escapement you can just increase the lock by moving the verge closer to reduce the drop on to the entrance pallet until the drops are even, but on a deadbeat you have a finite amount of lock that is the goal - that is, the teeth land on the dead face just a bit past the impulse-dead face separation line. In a recoil escapement, increasing lock further increases the impulse but increasing the lock on a deadbeat once a dead face lock is achieved serves no useful purpose.

RC
 

bangster

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I'm listening to RC. Once I get SOME lock, I'll start paying attention to drops. Drop is what happens when lock ends. Without lock, you've got infinite drop (or something). Anyhow, when I get back to this thing, I'll begin by closing the pallets slightly. If that achieves entrance lock, I'll go from there.

Thanks for your help, explanations, and suggestions, friends.
 

fbicknel

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What was that snapping noise I just heard?
 

Hudson

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I'm going to ask y'all a question I thought I knew the answer to. But now I'm not so certain.

My other bête noir, besides the eternal ST hybrid, is this Ingraham half-deadbeat.
I thought I had it running right. But now it won't keep running a-tall. The problem is lack of impulse. The EW tooth is landing on the impulse face of the entrance pallet instead of the locking surface. So there's no lock; so there's no run; so there's no adequate impulse.

I need to increase lock on the entrance pallet. Do I do that by BENDING THE PALLETS, or by MOVING THE ANCHOR WITH RESPECT TO THE EW.

I've re-read all the notes and literature and have been unable to find a straightforward answer.

So I'm seeking y'all's opinion. Do I fiddle with the pallets or do I fiddle with the anchor. Has to be one or the other.

Please enlighten me.
Steven Conover's "Book 3 ESCAPEMENTS" has a wonderful description of the half-deadbeat escapement and a great step by step procedure to resolve problems with the escapements. Chapter starts on page 58. I have followed the procedure with great results. The procedure includes accurately measuring across the escape wheel teeth, then setting the distance between the pallets using calipers to a calculated distance. After getting the distance (between the pallets) perfect, the center distance is adjusted to fine tune the locks and drops like a regular dead beat. Works every time on the Ingraham kitchen mantel clocks that I used it on.
 

disciple_dan

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The problem is that you likely will need to do both adjustments. You increase the lock by moving the verge closer to the escape wheel........... but if you find that the escapement hangs up before you get enough lock then you need to change the spacing between pallets, then try again.

RC
I'm working on the 451 again and it seems to massive lock and not much overswing. If I move the verge away from the EW It reduces the lock but then hangs up. I can't find a sweet spot. Do I need to maybe open the pallet spacing a bit?
If I lesson the lock and get the drop dialed in won't that increase my overswing? Thanks, Danny
Carolyn's clock.jpg
 

shutterbug

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Moving the anchor up and down does more for the exit drop than the entrance. On deadbeats, you adjust the entrance drop by altering the verge pallet spacing. Then adjust the exit drop by changing the distance from verge to EW. It is tedious work, and very little changes produce very big affects. I mean thousands of an inch.
 

disciple_dan

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Yes, that is correct. I can get the exit lock to a fairly good spot but the entrance has a massive lock. Now I know that lock and drop go together somewhat and the drop is acceptable but way too much lock. The clock will run if I get the beat set at the exact spot.
So, do you think I should open the spacing just a touch and try it?
Thanks a bunch, Danny
 

shutterbug

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It's worth a try, and will be and education for you as well :) It's much harder to widen than it is to narrow. Measure everything first, so you can know exactly how much you've changed things. Keep us posted. BTW, if the pallets are separate and adjustable, you can go that way instead.
 

disciple_dan

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Great answer, thank you for the good help, I really appreciate it, Danny
 

disciple_dan

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Hey, SB. That seemed to do wonders for the movement. I opened the spacing from 17.28mm to 17.38mm so what's that, one 100th of a cm? Is that right? Anyway, I put it back in the movement and adjusted the locks to a minimum and as equal as I could tell and the drops just seemed to fall into place.
I'll have to remember the symptom was a weak amplitude and most all of the overswing was on the entrance side, I think that's how it was. The clock did run at for that one night.
Ok, I'll let you know if that continues to run and I can put it back in the case.
Thanks again, Danny
 

shutterbug

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Good job, Danny! That's a bit of knowledge that will serve you well :)
 

Willie X

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I like to see a little more "drop" than some listers recommend. If it's to close you can have a comeback when a little wear causes a tooth to hang up. Or when the sun and all the planets line up, you know. That ole klip - klop sound, when the drops are uneven, grates on my nerves. I'm not talking about being out of beat here although the sound of uneven drops and 'out of beat' can easily be confused. And, you can have both. :) Willie X
 

shutterbug

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Yes. Uneven drops cause a tick TOCK tick TOCK. Or the reverse :)
 

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