Lloyd, William mid 18th Century

Discussion in 'European & Other Pocket Watches' started by Allan C. Purcell, May 6, 2020.

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  1. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    27-1.jpg

    This watch promises to be one of real interest, and though not all the facts fit as yet I think they can be solved.

    Let us then start with the usual, and go from there.


    26-3.jpg 26-2.jpg 27-2.JPG
    The hallmarks are for a watch of this age are very good, the crowned Leopards head nice and clear, and so the Lion Passant, the letter "J" not often used in English hallmarks, for the year 1764. Central to these the letters "IB for John Bingly, 13 Little Britain, London.

    So is the case original to the watch, I hope I can say yes, but first let us take a look at the movement.

    25-8.jpg 25-10.jpg 25-11.jpg

    These photographs are from the sale, so I will publish better ones when the watch arrives. What we are looking for hear are points that would indicate a watch of 1764, disregarding the signature at this time because the name Willian Lloyd is a little more than complicated.

    The cock foot is pierced, the cock its self is known mostly as "Laced-Edged", Then there are the so-called Georgian Pillars. All these indicate a date between 1759 to 1780 according to Cedric Jagger´s book " The Artistry of the English Watch"

    I am going to leave it here, for I think the name, William Lloyd, will take some time to sort out..........Till Later,

    Allan.
     
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  2. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    Can you get someone to change the title?
     
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  3. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    Should have read "Hundreds" will that do you for you.?
     
  4. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    What's wrong with 18th century. Just a single digit to change.
     
  5. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User
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    Allan - you need to check the case maker's mark when it arrives. I don't believe there is a period between the initials, if I am correct, without the period, the case maker will be John Barrow ...

    upload_2020-5-6_15-21-55.png

    4 May, 1761 - IB incuse = John Barrow, Golden Head, Tottenham Court Road
    8 July, 1763 - I·B incuse = John Bingley, Little Britain

    Case - Hallmark 1764/65

    3 Nov. 1774 IB incuse = John Bingley, 13 Little Britain

    John
     
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  6. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    So back in the 17 hundreds, we find a William Lloyd watchmaker, to find out more about him. Let us then start with the book by Brian Loomes "Watchmakers & Clockmakers of the world" (Complete 21st Century Edition)

    Lloyd, William John, London CC 1825-81 (Too late)
    Lloyd, William, Dolgelly (Wales) a.1802 to Edward Richard (Too late)
    Lloyd, William, From Monmouth (Wales) to London where a.1660, CC1668. (To early) (Though here we could say a possible relative)
    Lloyd, William, London (Newcastle Street) 1761 insolvent. (A maybe)
    Lloyd, William, London a,1658, CC1671-3 then overseas, then London again 1679-1705 (Another Relative maybe)
    Lloyd, William, London CC1740-65, son of James Lloyd of London q.v. (Could be our William, but wait till the next paragraph)
    Lloyd, William, London CC1760 (could be the one above)
    Lloyd, William, London. Manchester (Lancs) Mar. 1802
    Lloyd, William. Springfield /Mass. The USA) 1779-1845 Clock case maker. (?)
    Lloyd, William, Walsall (staffs) 1768 (Most unlikely)

    So that is the first choice, I then turned to Brian Loome´s book " Clockmakers of Britain 1286-1700". I of course then looked first at Lloyd, James.

    Lloyd, James. London. He was born about 1677 and was apprenticed through the Clockmakers Company in November 1691 to Thomas Bates till 1698 and made free in September 1700. He took as apprentices; in September 1700 Richard Batson
    (son of Richard Batson of Bibury, Gloucestershire, grazier); February 1713/14 his son, James Lloyd, free in 1722. In 1716 his son Matthew, was apprenticed to John Sells, Citizen and Poulterer. He is believed to have died in 1721.

    Here there is no mention of a son to James named William? (Page 322)

    We move on to Lloyd William, (Page 323)

    Lloyd, William (1) London. Also Floyd. He was born about 1646, son of Robert Lloyd of Ckarinton, Monmouthshire, yeoman, and was apprenticed in October 1660 to Richard Lyon till 1667 and made free of the Clockmakers Company /also the City)
    in May 1668.

    Lloyd, William (II) London. He was apprenticed (1658?) to Nicholas Coxeter, transferred to Thomas Daniel, then to Richard Bowen and made free in April 1671, He took as apprentices: January 167172 Richard Bennett, September 1673 Lewis Lloyd, In January 1696/7. "Having been several years beyond the sea he is much in arrears of quarterage but is excused on payment of30/-; In October 1705 he requested from the Clockmakers Company a certificate to state that he had been about 40 years a Freeman, Maybe died 1712, but see Charles Lloyd.

    Lloyd, Charles, London. He was born about1669 and apprenticed through the Clockmaker Company in September 1683 to Thomas Tompion till 1690 and made free in July 1691. He took apprentices; December 1696 Thomas Cox, free March 1707/8. June 1699 James Penny (son of John Penny of London, Clockworker); January 1704/5 Thomas Hayes /son of Janes Hayes late parish of St Margarets, Westminster, Labourer, deceased) He did not sign the 1697 Clockmakers Company oath of Allegiance but one of his name did sign for the Skinners Company. he was mentioned as deceased (but this could could be a slip in the records for William Lloyd). in 1716 he seems to have been still alive when his son, Thomas , was apprenticed in the Vintners Company to John Cook...........I have to go...back later.
     
  7. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    So before I go forward I would like to thank John for his efforts to support the case maker of the watch by William Lloyd. Barrow registered his mark in 1761 a one-off. Whereas Bingley Registered his mark in 1763, the hallmark "J" is for 1764 Only one person could register his initials (IB in this case) at one time. So I will stay with John Bingley.

    So where was I.......

    None of the above fit too well into our William Lloyd, though I am thinking he could have had Welsh blood in him. I will now turn to Denis Moore´s book "British Clockmakers & Watchmakers Apprentice Records, 1710-1810."

    In the book on page 210, there are many Lloyd watchmaker masters, until we reach William Lloyd, They are of little help as they only tell us who their apprentices were, though with dates.

    Lloyd, William, mas. John Jones son of Evan app, Citizen & clockmaker, London. Mx. 4 July 1743, 7 years, 15 pounds.
    Lloyd, William, mas. Edward Lewis app, citizen & Clockmaker, London, MX, I July 1757, 7 years 21 pounds.
    Lloyd, William, mas. James Wheeler, app, Citizen & Clockmaker, St Mary, Islington, London, MX. 9 July 1760, 7 years 20 pounds.
    Lloyd William, app, Edward Richard mas. Clockmaker, Dolgelly, Wales, 11 Nov. 1802, 2 years, 4 pounds.

    So enough, for now, I still have other books to look through. I will leave you with the number on the watch 9799. I think a high number for that period, he may have followed a family serial number??
     
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  8. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User
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    #8 John Matthews, May 6, 2020
    Last edited: May 6, 2020
    Allan - you are correct, only one person can hold the registration of a unique mark at one time. However, the two incuse marks {IB} and {I·B} are distinct.

    For {IB}

    14/03/1720 - 03/05/1761 John Beesley
    04/05/1761 - 02/11/1774 John Barrow
    03/11/1774 - 29/08/1782 John Bingley

    For {I·B}

    13/07/1716 - 07/07/1746 John Barugh
    08/07/1746 - 07/07/1763 John Berthellot
    08/08/1763 - 07/08/1808 John Bingley

    So my point is that the interpretation depends upon whether the mark is {IB} or {I·B}. If it is the latter you are correct, but if it is the former, you are not.

    John
     
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  9. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    Thanks, John, My point is that no matter where the dot is, only Bingley could have put there, the other two were not active in 1764. Though its all great fun, we see all the time mistakes in hallmarking. We are lucky to have had Phillip Priestley and others to point the way. Maybe we will see more when it arrives.

    Allan.
     
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  10. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    I am of course still looking at William Lloyd, and what I did this morning was to play with the dates of the William Lloyd in Dennis Moore´s book.
    The first three are of a William as master, and if he was the only one at that time, the math tells me if he was, say, about 25, when he took his first apprentice
    he would have been born c1718. So if he was still alive when his last apprentice left in 1767, he would have been only 49, and of course, only 46 in 1764 when he sold the above watch.
    This, of course, is speculation, but at the moment the story is still foggy.......to be cont......
     
  11. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    I think the fog as cleared up, and its time to look at "Britten" in his book "British Old Clocks and Watches & their Makers" pages 523 & 524. Written up for him by Cecil Clutton, G.H. Baillie & C. A. Ilbert. Ninth Edition

    Lloyd, James, 1691-1713; CC. app. Thomas Bates 18 Sept. (18 Nov) 1691; f (father). 2 Sep 1700 his son Jas; app. him1713.(Now if I have read this right it would appear this James Lloyd died in 1713, a year before his son was 21 and at the end of his apprenticeship)

    Lloyd, James, 1713-1730; CC s (son) of Jas; app. his father 1 Feb 1713; F (Free) 2 app 1722;? his s Thos app. Benj. Sidey (Maybe Sidley CC 1701-32)1721: his app. Zarah Abrahams 1730, Sheep Pens, Smithfield, London (Bri) I have no documents that tell me James (II) had married or had children other than Thomas.

    The doorbell rings,........till later...
     
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  12. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    Cont....... from above.

    Lloyd, William, 1668, CC.app. of Richard Lyon n.d.; f.4 May 1668. Pye enr /Bri)

    Lloyd, William, 1658-73; CC app. Nicholas Coxeter 6 December 1658 t/o Thos Daniell t/o Rich. Bowen, f.; 3 Apr 1671;? his app. Lewis Lloyd 1673.

    Lloyd, William, 1740-65; CC s of Jas; f. 1740-1765

    Lloyd, William, 1760; CC s. Of Jas; f patrim. 1760

    So these last two only tell us William Lloyd´s father was James Lloyd, that William was CC 1740-1765, and that he received his father's patrimony in 1670 (Patrimony-Money given to siblings when their father dies)

    So I can pat myself on the shoulder, my guesswork in post 10 was not too far off. Found at last??
     
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  13. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    Give or take a 100 years...............Keith R...;)
     
  14. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    A very astute remark there Keith.:coolsign: My problem now is, I don´t believe William was the son of James. See next post.
     
  15. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    From Brian Loomes book "Clockmakers of Britain 1286-1700" As of yet there is only one James Lloyd, which helps.

    Lloyd James, London. He was born about 1677 and was apprenticed through the Clockmakers Company in November to Thomas Bates till 1698 and made free September 1700. He took apprentices in September 1700 Richard Batson (son of Richard Batson of Bibury) Gloucestershire, grazer), February 1713/14 his son James Lloyd, free in 1722. In 1716 his son, Matthew was apprenticed to John Sells, Citizen and poulterer. He is believed to have died in 1721.

    So where is William Lloyd? Is there a mistake in the above? Most of all I need to see some documentation that tells us William was the son of James??

    Allan.

    27-4.JPG
     
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  16. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    You never know your luck with the post at the moment, so I was most surprised to see DHL at my front door this morning, (Five days from purchase) and yes the William Lloyd had arrived. No great worries, but it will need to go to London.

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    So the first little worry here is the glass is missing. The hands I think are original, if you look at the watch face on the first photograph of post one, you will see the minute had was almost black, but today a small rub with a cotton swab and the guiding came up. These are solid hands, nothing like the flimsy ones on modern Swiss watches. The case as one or two very small dents and the push-piece will need a replacement. We have all seen worse.

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    The hallmarks we have seen above, the outer case was not a very good stamp, and the inner just a little better, but we are talking here about a watch that is 236 years old. It´s nice to see it got here.

    29-5.JPG 29-4.JPG 29-3.JPG 29-2.JPG 29-1.JPG 29-6.JPG 29-8.JPG It looks good, and it's not too dirty, it will try to run if pressure is put on the fusee, but sounds to me there is some work to be done. There are a couple of nice touches, on the maintaining spring that you don´t see too often. So this is William Lloyd as of today, maybe before Christmas, I can say more about it. Thanks to John Matthews, my photographs are getting better. Enjoy.


    Allan.
     
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