Little help with my Waltham Colonial Series

BillyHelbender

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It wants to run!! I got it as runs for a short time and stops. So far it doesn't seem like the stopping has any rhyme or reason to it. However when it does stop. If I take a toothpick and apply slight pressure to the center wheel in a couter clockwise direstion, the balance wheel will start going again.
Does this maybe indicate anything to y'all? Thanks!

ALSO
I want to make sure I understand this regulator. Is this all the way fast or all the way slow?

20220321_105146[1].jpg
 

darrahg

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I would recommend a complete disassembly and cleaning initially. This would include, removal of all capped jewels, main spring etc. I would then inspect and repair all parts if necessary before assembling the power train and testing it by winding the main spring a few clicks (quarter turn of the crown). Additional servicing would then follow by performing standard procedures as any professional watchmaker would make. It might be difficult making second guesses until the movement is clean and lubricated properly. DA
 
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Skutt50

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As darrahg has explaned there is no meaning in trying anything untill the watch has been cleaned and properly lubricated.

Actually what you describe is pretty standard behavior for a movement full of old gummed up oil.

The regulator is set for full speed ahead. The shorter the effective length of the hairspring, the faster the watch will run.
 

BillyHelbender

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I would recommend a complete disassembly and cleaning initially. This would include, removal of all capped jewels, main spring etc. I would then inspect and repair all parts if necessary before assembling the power train and testing it by winding the main spring a few clicks (quarter turn of the crown). Additional servicing would then follow by performing standard procedures as any professional watchmaker would make. It might be difficult making second guesses until the movement is clean and lubricated properly. DA
As darrahg has explaned there is no meaning in trying anything untill the watch has been cleaned and properly lubricated.

Actually what you describe is pretty standard behavior for a movement full of old gummed up oil.

The regulator is set for full speed ahead. The shorter the effective length of the hairspring, the faster the watch will run.
Thanks for the replies guys! Especially about the regulator. I assumed it was on the fast side but wanted to be sure. :) I go intend to tear this all the way down and lubed up and all but supplies are on the way and I don't have a screwdriver even small enough for places like the dial screws.
Unfortunately it started running much less good and I fear I may have inadvertently done something but only because I have no other explanation. :( The balance wheel is not running correctly at all now and will only run in the face down position. Previously it at least ran in any position. It seems to me the Balance wheel is wobbling. I tried to video it. Just to be clear I never ran this totally dry I did lubricate what I could from the outside with just a 100% silicone oil.



So if the balance staff is broken I probably can't fix it anyways at least not yet! :) I will still break it down and clean everything as I bought this to learn on.
 

karlmansson

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Sorry, but silicone oil has nothing to do anywhere near pivots. THe only use for it with watches is for rubber seals in crowns and casebacks.

Yes, sounds like the balance staff is broken. Typical behaviour with wobbling and only running in one of the dial positions.
 

Skutt50

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It could be a bent or a broken pivot in the balance cock. One need to remove and inspect the balance wheel to confirm what is wrong. When the pivot gets damaged it is not uncommon that the hole jewel for said pivot also gets damaged.
 
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BillyHelbender

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Sorry, but silicone oil has nothing to do anywhere near pivots. THe only use for it with watches is for rubber seals in crowns and casebacks.

Yes, sounds like the balance staff is broken. Typical behaviour with wobbling and only running in one of the dial positions.
It could be a bent or a broken pivot in the balance cock. One need to remove and inspect the balance wheel to confirm what is wrong. When the pivot gets damaged it is not uncommon that the hole jewel for said pivot also gets damaged.
I understand about the silicone oil. Not what I would use but since I'll be eventually cleaning it up and oiling properly I figured in the short term it would be ok and better than dry.

I actually took the Balance assembly out (and amazingly in and of itself got it back in,) to my untrained eye the jewels look ok but I believe the pivots are worn. I need better optics to see things better. Wish I had a digital microscope like I saw in another post!

I'm learning little bit by little bit though. :)
 

gmorse

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Hi Billy,
I understand about the silicone oil. Not what I would use but since I'll be eventually cleaning it up and oiling properly I figured in the short term it would be ok and better than dry.
I'm afraid that it ain't necessarily so! It can be a pig to get that stuff off if it gets in the wrong places. Since it sounds as though you have a broken staff pivot, you'll be replacing the staff anyway, but cleaning the oil from the jewels could be a challenge.

Regards,

Graham
 

John Runciman

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So far it doesn't seem like the stopping has any rhyme or reason to it. However when it does stop. If I take a toothpick and apply slight pressure to the center wheel in a couter clockwise direstion, the balance wheel will start going again.
Does this maybe indicate anything to y'all? Thanks!
Out of curiosity is this your first watch repair?

It indicates that it's a pocket watch in desperate need of cleaning at the very minimum. In other words by supplying extra force the watch will run. Then a lot of things on the Watch our invisible until you take them apart like the mainspring it's probably set also that watches can still run for a little while with a set mainspring proper cleaning and evaluation is needed for proper diagnostics

Unfortunately it started running much less good and I fear I may have inadvertently done something but only because I have no other explanation. :( The balance wheel is not running correctly at all now and will only run in the face down position. Previously it at least ran in any position. It seems to me the Balance wheel is wobbling. I tried to video it. Just to be clear I never ran this totally dry I did lubricate what I could from the outside with just a 100% silicone oil.
Pocket watches are sometimes hard to diagnose because the lubrication's get really gummy and sticky and it's just hard to tell what's going on until their clean. But looks light you have a problem probably a balance staff if it's wobbling. Then depending upon how hard the impact was to break the staff you might a broken the jewel that it goes into. But all is speculation until the Watch is properly evaluated by disassembly and cleaning. Sometimes cleaning is even required before evaluation if things are really dirty. In other words you might actually have to clean the watch more than once.

Then no problem running the watch dry. There's a definite problem with using inappropriate lubrication and putting it places where it's not supposed to be. Besides you're not actually running the watch dry you're running it would just really dirty disgusting lubrication.

I actually took the Balance assembly out (and amazingly in and of itself got it back in,) to my untrained eye the jewels look ok but I believe the pivots are worn. I need better optics to see things better. Wish I had a digital microscope like I saw in another post!
Contrary to popular belief microscopes do not allow you to see better. You do it needs some sort of magnification like a loop or something else. You can't do watch repair with normal eyesight at least for normal people. The problem with microscopes are they just make things bigger if you have zero idea what you're looking at or why you're looking at it making It bigger doesn't actually make it better. So until you actually grasp what you're trying to look for your microscope isn't going to help you.
 

BillyHelbender

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John Runciman Thanks for such a thorough reply and the knowledge!

Other than a 1957 Dollar Pocket Watch yes this is my first repair. (which didn't run at all and now does and keeps really good time) and it just needed a cleaning.

I strictly bought this piece to disassemble and reassemble and clean and lubricate. It's just smaller than I was thinking (its a 14 but really a 12) and I can only do so much with what I have. I ordered new screwdrivers to help but the post office lost my order again. So I have to reorder. :mad:
While on the subject of oil what would be good to use as a general oil while learning. I understand all these different lubricants and their uses to a point but from what I've been able to see online most recommend Moebius 9104, 9010, D5 and then a 9415 for just the pallet jewels. That $150 roughly. Can't justify that at this point. Would just a general purpose watch oil like the moebius 8000 be ok? Or even just one of the other 4? Again while I'm trying to learn.
In my mind if I can actually do this, which in my mind is debatable, I can always do a perfect job later when my skills are better.

I do have magnification and need to get better I'm sure. I for sure need to get better lighting. my thought on the digital microscope was simply if I could get decent pics online I could ask experienced people and they could tell me whats up and what I'm looking at and thus learn. (Theres a post in this section where the guy did just this and guys could see what he was talking about and offer advice).

Right now my goal is to get this apart clean it lube and get it to run as good as it can. I'm not sure I could do a new staff but we'll see how it goes. :)
 

karlmansson

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John Runciman Thanks for such a thorough reply and the knowledge!

Other than a 1957 Dollar Pocket Watch yes this is my first repair. (which didn't run at all and now does and keeps really good time) and it just needed a cleaning.

I strictly bought this piece to disassemble and reassemble and clean and lubricate. It's just smaller than I was thinking (its a 14 but really a 12) and I can only do so much with what I have. I ordered new screwdrivers to help but the post office lost my order again. So I have to reorder. :mad:
While on the subject of oil what would be good to use as a general oil while learning. I understand all these different lubricants and their uses to a point but from what I've been able to see online most recommend Moebius 9104, 9010, D5 and then a 9415 for just the pallet jewels. That $150 roughly. Can't justify that at this point. Would just a general purpose watch oil like the moebius 8000 be ok? Or even just one of the other 4? Again while I'm trying to learn.
In my mind if I can actually do this, which in my mind is debatable, I can always do a perfect job later when my skills are better.

I do have magnification and need to get better I'm sure. I for sure need to get better lighting. my thought on the digital microscope was simply if I could get decent pics online I could ask experienced people and they could tell me whats up and what I'm looking at and thus learn. (Theres a post in this section where the guy did just this and guys could see what he was talking about and offer advice).

Right now my goal is to get this apart clean it lube and get it to run as good as it can. I'm not sure I could do a new staff but we'll see how it goes. :)
If you are looking to learn and not wanting to spend too much on equipment and consumables up front, I would suggest learning one step at a time. Practice disassembling, cleaning and assembling the movement first. You can do that dry without trouble, just don't let it run while it's dry. The parts I would be concerned about assembling dry are some parts in the setting mechanism, mainspring and cannon pinion. So maybe leave those out in your "dry runs".

When you are ready you can move on to ordering the correct lubricants and start practice lubrication. Which is a skill in and of it itself, and will almost certainly also include the first few steps all over again as you will have to take things aparts again and clean them when you accidentially fill a jewel cup to the brim or happen to smear grease all over a plate. Don't ask me how I know...

9010 is the synthetic equivalent of 8000, which is a natural mineral oil. 8000 can be used in a pinch on pallet stones but should ideally then be used with epilame as it tends to migrate and spread. D5 is also a natural oil (can be substituted for HP1300 or similar when you want to move away from the naturals). For high pressure, low speed applications such as arms and levers I use Moebius 9501 which is synthetic but previous service sheets from Omega amongs others call for Molykote DX which can be had in large quantities rather cheaply. The main downside to it is that it is hard to clean. You can however not use 8000 as a "general purpose watch oil". There is no such thing. Different applications require different types, amounts and methods of application of lubricants.

How do you plan to clean your parts? Do you have a cleaning machine?
Apart from asking questions here, I would strongly suggest you get some litterature on the subject as a starter. Many reccomend Fried but I find some of his advise dubious at best. The Chicago School of watchmaking manuals are pretty good and easy to understand and unless things have changed since last I looked can be downloaded as PDF for free. No link I'm afraid but they can be found rather easily.

Regards
Karl
 
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gmorse

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Hi Billy,
You can however not use 8000 as a "general purpose watch oil". There is no such thing. Different applications require different types, amounts and methods of application of lubricants.
Further to what Karl has said, I think this BHI document will be helpful to you.

Regards,

Graham
View attachment 692968
 
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BillyHelbender

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Thanks all for the advice I promise to take it all in as I can.

Thanks very much for the document!! I've not read it all yet but will for sure!! Seems like a really easy document to understand.

So as for the Watch:

I disconnected the hairspring, took of the balance cock and was able to get this picture of the balance staff pivots.

P1030024 (2).JPG

Safe to say the top one is the offending pivot?
As far as I can tell the jewels where the pivots go are ok. The holes are round and I don't see any cracks or anything.

There is no way with my abilities to fix this is there?
Is getting a new balance wheel complete assembly an option?

Well with this out I can start to disassemble the rest. If nothing else I'll lear n to take it apart and hopefully get it back together. :)
 

Skutt50

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Yes, that is a busted balance pivot. A replacement balance wheel complete is an option.

When you continue your disassembly/assembly you may encounter more problem parts so a donor movement may be a good choice.
 
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BillyHelbender

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Yes, that is a busted balance pivot. A replacement balance wheel complete is an option.

When you continue your disassembly/assembly you may encounter more problem parts so a donor movement may be a good choice.
Thanks Skutt! I've got it almost completely apart except I can't get the pallet bridge off to get the pallet fork out. Things look good so far! I'll work on seeing if I can find a replacement balance wheel

As for the Jewels themselves I'm not sure I'd ever be able to remove them. the screws are so tiny! Do they actually need to come out?
any guess as to the size of the screw driver required?
 

Skutt50

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You need to remove any jewels that have a cap. The most commonly caped jewels are the balance jewels.

Yes you need a small screwdriver. If you are going to work on watches you might as well consider buying a good set right away. Personally I do things a bit different than most watchmakers. I have good screwdriver holders but in stead of buying new baldes I use old HSS drills that I shape to make new screwdriver tips.

I can't say what size you need but if you buy a set, there should be one that will fit the screws.

As for the pallet bridge: Look along the edges for a small recessed area. That is where you can prey the bridge loose (if you have a small screwdriver that is......)
 
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BillyHelbender

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You need to remove any jewels that have a cap. The most commonly caped jewels are the balance jewels.

Yes you need a small screwdriver. If you are going to work on watches you might as well consider buying a good set right away. Personally I do things a bit different than most watchmakers. I have good screwdriver holders but in stead of buying new baldes I use old HSS drills that I shape to make new screwdriver tips.

I can't say what size you need but if you buy a set, there should be one that will fit the screws.

As for the pallet bridge: Look along the edges for a small recessed area. That is where you can prey the bridge loose (if you have a small screwdriver that is......)
Thanks again!! I have a set coming that should have one that works. :) The stuff I have currently definitely isn't going to work.
I'll read up on Jewels so I understand the different kinds as well.
 

gmorse

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Hi Billy,
That is where you can prey the bridge loose (if you have a small screwdriver that is......)
That's indeed what the recesses are for, but don't use any good, expensive screwdrivers for this, have an old, worn one for these jobs.

Parts such as the balance cock and various bridges usually have steady pins to locate them accurately, so try and lever these parts up evenly, and they'll be less likely to jam.

Regards,

Graham
 
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Skutt50

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Parts such as the balance cock and various bridges usually have steady pins to locate them accurately
I second that! Some are a bit hard to get loose and I have some built in fear of damaging e.g. the pallet fork when trying to press down the stubborn bridge/cock. (Haven't however broken any pallet fork this way yet...) If they are hard to push back I test fit them without the pallet fork and even give some a drop of oil to make them fit a bit easier.........
 

DwayneR

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Billyhelbender, don't give up. As you may have seen in my own thread, you and I are at similar skill level. Take your time, go slow, and don't pressure yourself. I second the comments about having another donor movement around that you can scavenge parts from. I am finding that out with the movement I'm playing with. I got lucky and it looks like my balance staff is good, but I still have to mess with the balance at some point. Other parts are not in as good a shape. As for screwdrivers, I got a good set and I found that I am mostly using the 0.8mm, 1.00mm and 1.20mm blades. For the movement side, mostly the 0.8mm but that is just this particular movement I am working on.
 

karlmansson

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There is no free lunch with watchmaking tools I’m afraid. There are certain extremes that you can do well to avoid but you will either end up spending a lot of time hunting for used tools at a good price in good condition or you will spend a lot of money on new tools. Rarely does just the tool you need for the task at hand turn up when you need them. But most electronics screwdrivers will be too large or just wrong profile for watch work. You will also need a way to dress your screwdriver and tweezers to keep them from damaging parts and keep you from doing the same.

Get at least a couple of decent tweezers in different sizes (Dumont 1A brass is a good general purpose one) and a set of standard screwdrivers. My first set was from eBay by a brand called “Suissetek”. Paid about 70 dollars for six or seven of them. I still use them occasionally.

For prying bridges I never twist the blade in there. You risk damaging the plates much more than you risk damaging your screwdriver. I wedge the blade in the recess and wiggle it carefully until it will go a bit deeper and then rock it rather than just twist it in place. Steel is harder than brass and the plates WILL get burrs and ridges worked into them. This is extra troublesome under the balance cock where burrs and “pig ears” will make the balance cock tilt and effectively alter the distance between balance jewels.

Take a step back and assess what you will need and what you need to learn at this point unless you are perfectly fine with breaking the watch that you are now working on. That’s also a way to learn, just one that can easily get a lot more expensive than starting out in a safer way.

Regards
Karl
 

BillyHelbender

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Billyhelbender, don't give up. As you may have seen in my own thread, you and I are at similar skill level. Take your time, go slow, and don't pressure yourself. I second the comments about having another donor movement around that you can scavenge parts from. I am finding that out with the movement I'm playing with. I got lucky and it looks like my balance staff is good, but I still have to mess with the balance at some point. Other parts are not in as good a shape. As for screwdrivers, I got a good set and I found that I am mostly using the 0.8mm, 1.00mm and 1.20mm blades. For the movement side, mostly the 0.8mm but that is just this particular movement I am working on.
NOT A CHANCE! Totally expected that when I got this movement I'd probably kill it! Now though I actually think I can get it going again. I may have identified a movement for a Balance donor too. so we'll see.

As for disassembly:

I think there is only one capped jewel. It is in the bottom plate and would hold the bottom balance pivot. Is that possible that there is only 1? I looked at them really well and I watched some videos do be sure I knew what a capped jewel looked like. All the rest appear to be regular.

Thanks everyone for the advice! :D
 

karlmansson

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NOT A CHANCE! Totally expected that when I got this movement I'd probably kill it! Now though I actually think I can get it going again. I may have identified a movement for a Balance donor too. so we'll see.

As for disassembly:

I think there is only one capped jewel. It is in the bottom plate and would hold the bottom balance pivot. Is that possible that there is only 1? I looked at them really well and I watched some videos do be sure I knew what a capped jewel looked like. All the rest appear to be regular.

Thanks everyone for the advice! :D
There will be at least 2 cap jewels. One for each end of the balance staff. For some higher grade watches there will also be caps on the escape wheel jewels.
 

Skutt50

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I think there is only one capped jewel.
The second cap jewel is seen in your first picture in this thread.

When you loosen the two small screws holding the cover for the regulator arm the cap jewel will probably remain in the cover and the hole jewel will remain in the balance cock.
You need to remove this to properly clean and inspect the upper hole jewel in the balance cock. Also the cap jewel may have been damaged when the balance pivot broke. It should be flat and polished and without any pits or wear.
 

karlmansson

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NOT A CHANCE! Totally expected that when I got this movement I'd probably kill it! Now though I actually think I can get it going again. I may have identified a movement for a Balance donor too. so we'll see.

As for disassembly:

I think there is only one capped jewel. It is in the bottom plate and would hold the bottom balance pivot. Is that possible that there is only 1? I looked at them really well and I watched some videos do be sure I knew what a capped jewel looked like. All the rest appear to be regular.

Thanks everyone for the advice! :D
Again, I would strongly advice you to do some reading before proceeding. The Chicago course covers basic watch anatomy as well, which is the territory we are in now. You need to know how to identify and describe what you are seeing if anyone here is to have a sporting chance to help you out once things get complicated.
 
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BillyHelbender

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The second cap jewel is seen in your first picture in this thread.

. It should be flat and polished and without any pits or wear.
Thanks!! Indeed it is. Its actually co clear I couldn't tell the hole I was seeing was in the bottom. This is Good so I know what I gotta do! :D

Can't go any further until my new tools arrive so I've got time to read up on things.

Again, I would strongly advice you to do some reading before proceeding. The Chicago course covers basic watch anatomy as well, which is the territory we are in now. You need to know how to identify and describe what you are seeing if anyone here is to have a sporting chance to help you out once things get complicated.
Got it!! Downloaded the entire thing! Looks like I got some readin to do! :D :D
 

Skutt50

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Just a quick word of caution:

When you unscrew the balance regulator cover, make sure you don't ben the regulator pins. It is easy to lay the balance flat on the table and start screwing away. You will soon realise that you have bent both regulator pins.

You need to support the balance cock so the regulator ping are in the air even if you press down on the screws. (I use the back of a pair of tweezers.)
 
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Jerry Treiman

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Just a quick word of caution:

When you unscrew the balance regulator cover, make sure you don't ben the regulator pins. It is easy to lay the balance flat on the table and start screwing away. You will soon realise that you have bent both regulator pins.

You need to support the balance cock so the regulator ping are in the air even if you press down on the screws. (I use the back of a pair of tweezers.)
There is no regulator cover on these movements. That is part of the balance cock. Those two small screws hold down the cap and hole jewels. Protecting the regulator pins is still a good idea. I use a round of pithwood to support the balance cock when removing or replacing the screws.
 

BillyHelbender

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As always Skutt, thanks for the advice!! :) I've been careful so far but did lose the screw that holds the hairspring in place! :eek: By some act of god I was able to find it though. LOL
 

John Runciman

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I understand all these different lubricants and their uses to a point but from what I've been able to see online most recommend Moebius 9104, 9010, D5 and then a 9415 for just the pallet jewels. That $150 roughly. Can't justify that at this point. Would just a general purpose watch oil like the moebius 8000 be ok? Or even just one of the other 4? Again while I'm trying to learn.
Discussing lubrication's is always an amusing subject on this group subject to opinions quite a few of them including mine.

A unfortunate reality in watch repair is it's expensive. The tools can be expensive the lubrication's expensive and you're always going to need another tool you're never going to have enough of them ever. Fortunately with the tools you can buy a few key tools to get you started.

Then the running joke on every single discussion group is how expensive the lubrication is. The problem is it's a specialty oil with special properties that comes in a little tiny bottle and all the packaging bottle and getting the oil in the bottle probably cost more than the oil itself. But you use such a tiny quantity of it a tiny bottle will last a very long time as long as you don't pay attention to the technical sheet? They now put dates of when the oil expires and they recommend replacing it every couple years. So if you ignore that your oil will last a very long time in the Bottle providing it's stored away from sunlight and doesn't get overly hot. I think one of the biggest concerns with horological lubrication is how to get out of the bottle and not contaminate the oil in their. Which is why some companies like Rolex would supply the lubrication and syringe is to avoid the contamination.

I personally think a starter lubricant is a waste of time because sooner or later going to have to buy something better. If you look at 8000 on the moebius Website you find out that it's considered a natural oil not synthetic. Basically when you look at the website all of the 8xxx series of oils are natural and they all have shorter life's. Strangely enough they might actually have better lubrication properties sometimes than the synthetic but they do have a much shorter life in the model and probably in your watch. Although 8000 is popular with hobbyist consists really cheap.

There are a whole bunch of other companies 12 some other companies making horological lubrication'sBut that is usually limited to know technical specifications. Fortunately are not servicing watches for money so not sure if you are concerned about whether your lubrication disintegrates in a very short period of time. Because some of the lubricants can disintegrate really fast for instance anchor oil has a really interesting reputation of being very very bad.

A nice compromise oil might be 9020? As typically I'm servicing pocket watches I have never found the performance decrease from using 9020 as my main lubricants including on the balance pivots. Typically I use 9415 on the escapement. But if you wanted a general-purpose oil Perhaps you should think of 9020. Then well it's not ideal for the escapement you could still use it there it's better than nothing.
 
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BillyHelbender

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John Runciman Great information!! thank you!!

Looking for a "general Purpose oil" for me was only ever meant to be a temporary type thing. I plan to get the "Good Stuff" it can't just all come at once. These movements are for now practice movements I just want to learn on. I'll look at the 9020 and promise no matter what any movement I don't oil properly will get oiled properly. :)
The expense thing! Par for the course! I got into Air Rifles and started with sub $100 models and am now to the point where they are $2000! :D
 

BillyHelbender

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So I haven't worked on this movement in a few days cause my upgraded tools are not here but I thought of a question.

Now that I know which the cap jewels are do I need to physically take both parts out of the movement or just remove the capped portion and service from there?
 

karlmansson

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Apr 20, 2013
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So I haven't worked on this movement in a few days cause my upgraded tools are not here but I thought of a question.

Now that I know which the cap jewels are do I need to physically take both parts out of the movement or just remove the capped portion and service from there?
Not sure which parts you are referring to so I’ll answer with how I generally do it:

I remove everything from the mainplate except for the dial screws. On a watch without a shock setting I then remove the balance from the balance cock, remove the end stones in their settings and use freshly cut pointed piece of peg wood to peg out the balance jewels in both plate and balance cock. I then re-install the balance in the balance cock and reassemble the cock onto the mainplate. So now you will have the balance sandwiched as usual on the mainplate but without the end stones. Be careful about touching the balance at this point as it can easily wedge the conical section into a hole jewel and crack it. Then I run the mainplate in my cleaning machine in a separate basket so that nothing can crash into the balance.

I don’t think that his particular practice is covered in the Chicago books but I think you will find a lot of useful info there on this subject!
 

Skutt50

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I think that in this case you have both cap jewels and hole jewel in fittings. So to remove the cap jewels you have to push both cap and hole jewels out together. On other designs the hole jewel stays in the plate and the cap jewel will come loose once the screws are removed.

When you re-instal these make sure you turn the hole jewel the right way and that it gets properly seated.
 

MrRoundel

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BTW, as far as pushing the jewels out, you might need some sort of jewel pusher to get them out. They are usually brass rod that's the right size to pass all the way through the bridge opening without pushing entirely on the jewel itself. You want to contact the brass jewel setting. Pushers are also generally a bit concave at the center so it doesn't push down on the breakable jewel at all. And most of us set the plate or balance cock on top of a round piece of buttonwood/pith and push it through into the wood. You then just pry it out and get to work cleaning them.

Sometimes you can find a vintage tool in which 5-6 different sized pushers are set. They are set around a circular center and radiate out from it, like a spur on an old boot. Good luck.
 
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John Runciman

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Now that I know which the cap jewels are do I need to physically take both parts out of the movement or just remove the capped portion and service from there?
I was going to say but I ran only up to the top the message? I want to see if you posted a picture so many times people knew to watch repair will describe something or just assume that we know and we might know but we still need a picture that you of a picture.

From the picture basically a standard American pocket watch. Two screws have to come out first. Be careful with those screws there really tiny and more important when putting back in those are really tiny threads often times the holes are stripped so just tighten until there in, you go a little too far you may find their stripped.

As others have mentioned the preferred way is to push them out with a tool worst case you can use a piece of paying would try not the user tweezers it leaves pointy little indents in the brass it looks quite hideous fortunately is on the backside but still it looks bad. Ill do pen not a whole variety of factors as to how much force it takes to get them out. It's conceivably been changed sometimes they'll be loose if they're loose that's very bad especially in the case of the hole Jewel event can actually slide around which I've seen that has to be fixed it can't be that loose. Usually typically it's just too easy to push out or sometimes there really really hard to push out. Then unfortunately you cannot remove the end stone and setting because you have to push on the hole jewel which means they both basically come out.
 

DwayneR

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Feb 21, 2022
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So I haven't worked on this movement in a few days cause my upgraded tools are not here but I thought of a question.

Now that I know which the cap jewels are do I need to physically take both parts out of the movement or just remove the capped portion and service from there?
Oh man, it looks like we are both having problems with our jewels :). Seriously, these things are so small. I have not taken the cap and hold jewels out for oiling yet on my balance, because I'm still waiting on my oil to arrive. I have another balance cock that I was going to practice installing and uninstalling the jewels. I have not attempted to take the balance wheel and spring off of my 'good' movement balance cock yet. That is next. I may try to record my attempts. When you get your new tools, it will be like Christmas!
 
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BillyHelbender

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Mar 16, 2022
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Oh man, it looks like we are both having problems with our jewels :). Seriously, these things are so small. I have not taken the cap and hold jewels out for oiling yet on my balance, because I'm still waiting on my oil to arrive. I have another balance cock that I was going to practice installing and uninstalling the jewels. I have not attempted to take the balance wheel and spring off of my 'good' movement balance cock yet. That is next. I may try to record my attempts. When you get your new tools, it will be like Christmas!
How'd yours turn out? Got sick during this post and forgot all about it. LOL

I've gotten this totally serviced now but the Balance staff is still broken. I may have located a donor today so hopefully she'll be up and running really soon!!
 

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