Lions and tigers and bears! Oh my!

rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

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There is that scene in the Wizard of Oz movie where in fear, the characters repeat:

lions and tigers and bears.jpg

Well, these days, when I open the Forums, I say in lassitude and resignation,

lionstigersbears_orig.jpg

I do apologize to those who take offense, but for me and I will say, a goodly # of others with whom I commiserate, the Forums has reached a new low point.

Yes, everyone should be free to collect what they want.

Yes, one person's trash is another person's treasure.

Yes, what interests me may not someone else and vice versa.

But, c'mon.

I know, I know. I have heard all of the indignant rebuttals before when I have brought this up previously.

No, I don’t think it helps to “grow” interest in horology. Obviously not given the hand wringing over things like NAWCC membership.

There are those with serious collecting interests who dismiss the Forums as inconsequential and, well, as a waste of time given the "uneven" quality of what appears here and when something they consider worthy appears, how little interest it generates and how promptly it is buried under the all too typical. Some are even part of the NAWCC leadership. The help and contributions of this group and the like that have chosen to stand on the sideline are eagerly sought. If they don’t participate, then it becomes a self-fulling prophecy and the downward spiral continues.

Ok, I'm ready to be today's punching bag. But I stand by my statement.

RM


lions and tigers and bears.jpg
 

Jim DuBois

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RM, we are often in violent agreement and your post is once again pretty much on the money. I have no input about watches but in the clock area of the MB we are down to about a dozen participants that offer much in the way of useful discussion of clocks in my areas of interest. I am confident there are other great participants in areas not of interest to me. I, and others, like more rare clocks, not those found in the dozens at flea markets, or clock collectors back rooms, or those with little intrinsic value. You, me, and a few others have offered up for discussion some very rare stuff, and at the same time try to enlarge the discussions with history, other related products, how clocks were made, and by whom, details of similar clocks, on and on. There are a few people who are equally engaged in English and European clocks, and share huge amounts of details on rare clocks and so forth. But they also are in the minority here these days.

It seems that several (many) very dedicated collectors and knowledgeable parties will not participate here on the MB. The length and breadth and cost to us all of this avoidance cannot be understated. While both you and I know and are in good stead with some number of these folks, their one consistent point for their not being here is the MB is "a waste of time". And we tend to drive away some of those folks when they try to participate here. A cheap shot or two, perhaps unintentional, drove one of them away last month. I can't begin to describe what we lost with his departure. But, it was more than a bit and worth a lot more to us all.

We have in the last few years lost people who have been extremely active here in the past. In some cases, health or even death has been the reason, but a couple I have spoken to about their having left has hammered the "waste of time" or "the group wants to argue" rather than value or appreciate help when it is received.

At the same time as we are not gaining membership, the many clock groups on internet sites such as FaceBook are adding members like mad. We do need to ask ourselves why that might be. I don't have answers to any of my points. I am a much better critic than I am a playwright.
 

novicetimekeeper

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I think the enormous benefit that this MB has over facebook or virtually any other forum is that pictures are uploaded to the NAWCC servers so they are not lost when somebody leaves, or their picture hosting account is closed.

For that reason I post all my clocks here as well as elsewhere, even though I get rather less feedback here.

To me it is important that people can come here and research.
 

Kevin W.

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This website has the most pictures and postings in one place. I have well over a thousand members in my Facebook group, of horology. Very few participate. I wish at times that newbies would do a little more research, rather than asking the same questions over and over. I hope that more people would join, but i dont see that happening very much.
 

Jim DuBois

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Kevin and Novice, you both have hit on why we need to pull in people who do contribute substantially in their areas of interest. We do have a more or less permanent and retrievable library of (hopefully) knowledge.

While I mention FB we also need to note that information, photos, ideas, and discussions are difficult to find after just a bit of time. Most discussions have a life of just a few days then they are lost in the relentless flow of new contributions. I am a member of a few that cater to professional this or that. In most cases, if something is published there other folks will jump on it in short order.

I have been capturing some of those relevant discussions and publishing them in one of our NAWCC chapter's newsletter. (Cog Counters Journal) There are some truly remarkable craftsmen on a couple of them, there are some clocks being shown in detail that really should be here.

There are educational opportunities that really should be shared here. For example, one person has covered in finite detail how to replace teeth in music boxes, how to properly dampen the teeth, how to tune the new teeth, how to make the worm gears for the governer assembly, on and on. His work is impeccable. I have wanted to know how these repairs were done for a very long time. And yes, his work is very relevant to clocks too.

There are other parties who are doing remarkable work in engraving, in making very fine precision clocks, working on the metallurgy of 15th and 16th clocks and recreating the same. Another party is making complex skeleton clocks, all framework handcut, and works of art in themselves.

There are a couple parties showing some extremely rare and very early clockwork, in detail. Things I have never seen other than in museum glass cases they will barely let us unwashed masses look at. Some of those folks used to comment here but gave it up due in part to all the kibitzing and unrelated arguments. My point is if they can live on FB amicably why not here?

There are some very interesting woodworks clocks being shown on the FB NAWCC Cog Counters. I have published some of those clocks here, most died here with less than a dozen or maybe two dozen views and some with not even a single comment.

As I suggested before, I don't have answers for any of this. But, I report what I see, and we need some better approaches.
 

bruce linde

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maybe we need to break up 'general clock discussions' into 'older' and 'newer'...

i have learned so much from the photos and techniques posted by those in the know, but the more i learn the more i get frustrated with explaining the same stuff over and over again to people who don't bother searching, or sifting through posts about 1970s and newer clocks i could (personally) care less about.

i'm willing to propose this in the 'admins and moderators' forum but would like to hear more from you all about such a plan... do you think going 'older/newer' would help? should we do something else?
 

novicetimekeeper

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Difficult one that Bruce, even my modest collection spans nearly two centuries though the youngest is around 150 years old. I think ebay has a pre 1900 filter.
 

bruce linde

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right... but that would allow us to move posts about newer clocks to 'newer clocks'... a forum those interested in older clocks could avoid or ignore
 
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Kevin W.

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I think it would work Bruce. I prefer older clocks to newer ones.
 
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novicetimekeeper

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right... but that would allow us to move posts about newer clocks to 'newer clocks'... a forum those interested in older clocks could avoid or ignore

Yes, it might help. Though you could try a different tack perhaps, and have fusee clocks, for instance. Fusee dial clocks were made here until the 1970s. We had a decent thread on RAF sector clocks recently.
 

bruce linde

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thx for the comments.... another argument against my suggestion would be that there would be less newbie posts answered if we all ignored the 'newer clocks' forum.

it would be great to have 'nicer clocks' and ''lesser' clocks', but somehow i don't think that would fly! :)
 
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rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

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This has been a good discussion.

Something needs to be done to revive the Forums as a true, authoritative and informative horological site. Not one characterized by some serious folks as a "waste of time". Yes, I know, you can't please everyone and everyone's a critic.

I think that Nick has pointed out a very real strength of the Forums as a repository of information....provided that pictures and chunks of postings don't get lost in "updates" as they have in the past. That the information can be retrieved by searching the site and more significantly, when a subject is Googled, gives it a level of importance.

There are any # of ways of sorting postings. Age, type of clock, country of origin of clock, etc.

This would probably require active effort on the part of the moderators as most of the people posting clocks don't have a clue.

Age is a possible criteria though that would unavoidably lump a good Chelsea or Waltham product with the sadly typical. No method will be without its pluses and minuses.

RM
 
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etmb61

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"We're sooo glad you've taken an interest in Horology, but the "cheap crap" junk store alarm clock that gave you that interest just isn't going to cut it. Come back when you have a multi-thousand dollar centuries old clock and then we can talk."

We all start at different places. If you really want to expand someone's interest you must meet them where they are and entice them.

Wow!

Eric
 

rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

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"We're sooo glad you've taken an interest in Horology, but the "cheap crap" junk store alarm clock that gave you that interest just isn't going to cut it. Come back when you have a multi-thousand dollar centuries old clock and then we can talk."

We all start at different places. If you really want to expand someone's interest you must meet them where they are and entice them.

Wow!

Eric
Wow. IMCO, multiple misconceptions.

All that's worthwhile is NOT expensive. Only a few of the clocks I have posted were worth $1,000's. A majority were obtained at surprisingly modest cost in modest establishments often sitting beside, well, junk that wasn't that much less expensive. Many early clocks are going begging and prices are down. Expensive does not necessarily equal worthwhile.

No one is saying not to purchase or post the other stuff. It's just some balance needs to be restored. Sorry, but it has become relentless and is overwhelming everything.

I believe one may be enticed by showing them to which they might aspire or might be inspired or moved by.

And so what if one can't afford it? I see much stuff I will NEVER be able to afford. Not just clocks, but achingly wonderful American furniture, folk art, etc. I see it in people's collections, museums, shops, at shows, at auction previews and in publications. I still want to be exposed to it, learn about it and especially to examine it at an auction preview. It's not always about owning or possessing it.

That's where I want to be "met".

RM
 

etmb61

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Wow. IMCO, multiple misconceptions.

All that's worthwhile is NOT expensive. Only a few of the clocks I have posted were worth $1,000's. A majority were obtained at surprisingly modest cost in modest establishments often sitting beside, well, junk that wasn't that much less expensive. Many early clocks are going begging and prices are down. Expensive does not necessarily equal worthwhile.

No one is saying not to purchase or post the other stuff. It's just some balance needs to be restored. Sorry, but it has become relentless and is overwhelming everything.

I believe one may be enticed by showing them to which they might aspire or might be inspired or moved by.

And so what if one can't afford it? I see much stuff I will NEVER be able to afford. Not just clocks, but achingly wonderful American furniture, folk art, etc. I see it in people's collections, museums, shops, at shows, at auction previews and in publications. I still want to be exposed to it, learn about it and especially to examine it at an auction preview. It's not always about owning or possessing it.

That's where I want to be "met".

RM
RM,
Sometimes I throw gasoline onto the fire, but I'm actually in agreement with you. The "cheap crap" comment was over the top and I responded in kind. Sorry.

I do not know how one would restore balance here. I too find it tedious seeing the same questions over and over. All I can do is try to provide useful and interesting content in my areas of interest. Sometimes it sparks meaningful conversation, other times not so much.

Eric
 

rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

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RM,
Sometimes I throw gasoline onto the fire, but I'm actually in agreement with you. The "cheap crap" comment was over the top and I responded in kind. Sorry.

I do not know how one would restore balance here. I too find it tedious seeing the same questions over and over. All I can do is try to provide useful and interesting content in my areas of interest. Sometimes it sparks meaningful conversation, other times not so much.

Eric
No worries.

Did I use the actual word “crap”? Then I need to apologize!!

If you toss gasoline, I tend to toss nitro.

Generally, I believe in diplomacy. However, sometimes you have to break a few eggs to make an omelette.

If nothing else, hopefully this discussion will raise awareness & may serve as a call to action, especially to those who remain on the sidelines & could potentially contribute much.

And of course, a heartfelt thanks to all those who haven’t left & continue to make quality contributions to the Forums and apparently still believe it and their efforts have worth & value.

RM
 

Bruce Barnes

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So far I am in concurrence with most of the comments but one must take into consideration the ever changing profile of antique clock collection and restoration and the personnel involved.
My other interests lie in instrumentation that is usually not visible on this forum or is shuttled off to the site with the catch all title "misc", these instruments, in many cases, have clock mechanisms and are a welcome addition to antique clocks, e.g., I have a pressure gauge and recording mechanism that is powered by a Howard clock assembly but I never have posted it.
My other complaint, minor as it is, is that this site has become like a cluttered garage I understand the need for other sources of revenue but this may have a negative impact on anyone new to the hobby.
So many great people and great minds and expertise that have now slowly drifted away..................
Bruce
 
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rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

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Going back through previous posts, I see it was Mr. Linde, a MODERATOR no less who used the term "crap".

Tsk, tsk. He needs his mouth washed out with ultrasonic cleaner fluid. 50 lashes with a wet noodle.

I should have realized if it were me, a certain other moderator who likes to keep me in his cross hairs would have jumped on it and made all sorts of threats.

RM
 

D.th.munroe

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I was never much of a poster here for a few reasons, though I did first sign up in 2001 edit: (sorry I accidently pressed post ..touch screens)
I do have 100s of clocks and am a professional clock and watchmaker and see many exceptional clocks and watches.
Although I feel like RM about the stuff I've been working on lately.

I have at times felt as if everything I learned from professionals and education is wrong here and feel I'm viewed as rank amateur, so I do limit my posts even more now.

I have thought maybe an "horologically or historically significant/and exceptional workmanship" thread would be nice.
 
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rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

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I was never much of a poster here for a few reasons, though I did first sign up in 2001 edit: (sorry I accidently pressed post ..touch screens)
I do have 100s of clocks and am a professional clock and watchmaker and see many exceptional clocks and watches.
Although I feel like RM about the stuff I've been working on lately.

I have at times felt as if everything I learned from professionals and education is wrong here and feel I'm viewed as rank amateur, so I do limit my posts even more now.

I have thought maybe an "horologically or historically significant/and exceptional workmanship" thread would be nice.
If you encounter interesting stuff and can post it, please do so.

There is a desperate need for interesting postings.

RM
 

bruce linde

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Going back through previous posts, I see it was Mr. Linde, a MODERATOR no less who used the term "crap".
Tsk, tsk. He needs his mouth washed out with ultrasonic cleaner fluid.

i've edited my post, as we want to welcome all levels of clock enthusiasts.

also... you don't want to spark yet another discussion of WHICH ultrasonic cleaner fluid to use, do you? :)





I have at times felt as if everything I learned from professionals and education is wrong here and feel I'm viewed as rank amateur, so I do limit my posts even more now.
sorry to hear this... but would appreciate some clarification.

it's pretty obvious from your comments that you know what you're talking about... if you're not comfortable talking publicly about why you feel treated like an amateur, perhaps you'd be willing to PM me? i can't promise a fix for anything, but am always willing to challenge the status quo towards a better experience for all.

are you saying that the response to your comments is that they are 'wrong', and that posting your approach(es) puts a target on your back for vitriolic/challenging responses? if so... waaahh... not good.

i apologize if you've had anything less than a positive experience here. pls lmk how (if?) i can help?
 
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Kevin W.

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DTH munroe, i for sure never thought of you as a amatuer. There are different methods that we all use for doing things. Stick with what works
best for you.
 
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bruce linde

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If you encounter interesting stuff and can post it, please do so
There is a desperate need for interesting postings.
what's 'interesting'? i enjoy reading your posts... even if your tastes and mine can differ you have an excellent eye and are a great presenter.

otoh... i'm not always sure you enjoy my posts.

it takes a village, and we need to figure out how to make this village work for everyone.

i've been advocating for a while now that we should have a 'clock (and/or watch) of the week featured on the main site home page, and maybe even the sidebar of the message board pages. we could certainly pick from most of your posts and other already-posted threads.

the trick is to keep us interested while not blowing off first-timers who just inherited some clocks and are starting at the beginning.

i wonder if maybe we should have additional badges under our avatars and info on the left... 'freshman', 'junior', 'senior', 'emeritus', etc.? it would be nice to differentiate between posts from those with experience and those excited to share who do not yet know what they don't know (ahem....).
 
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D.th.munroe

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Well that could just be my perception of some things, really, I don't think I've posted enough of my own work and methods, or often enough.

I will try to post as much Interesting things as I can. I have a few that I would like to show when I can get to them.
 
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DeanT

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I am one of those that used to contribute to the Forums but stopped a month or so ago. I can add a few comments regarding the state of the board and its direction but I don't have any good solutions.

Clock collecting and research for me are a passion and enjoyable pastime. I am not a professional or make any pretenses to be but I understand my limitations and tend to stick to knitting so to speak. The enjoyment was somewhat dampened by a few comments with the final straw from some guy "who had visited a museum" and preferred their restoration methods (being a museum I assume that means no restoration). Given clock collecting is supposed to be fun pastime I decided to remove the source of the annoyance.

These sites tend to be a victim of their own success. As they grow and become more popular they attract more people who find them via search engines etc. I have watch a few FB clock pages quickly degenerate as more people join. Most of the new participates were not actually interested in clocks but simply wanted a free evaluation for the clock they had just purchased from the local thrift store to see if they could make a profit. They had zero interest in clocks. Some will argue that this is attracting new people to clocks but I think the reverse and it actually pushes long term experts away from these mediums. I feel the amount of threads for which I have no interest is always increasing and those that I am interested in get lost quite quickly or I miss them entirely. My preference is threads such as the restoration of the Etherington Bracket clock which rolled along for a year or so which I like to follow as the progression of the work showing it being returned to its former glory and I can learn different techniques and processes. The "What is my clock?" threads are becoming quite repetitive and I'm sure with 1 minute on google you could probably find what it was and the price anyway....

I learnt much of my initial knowledge through this forum and made an effort as I learnt more to pass that knowledge on to others but its become much harder given the volume of junk required to negotiate to see threads to which I can offer some information. (Predominantly pre 1800 English clocks). I'm not talking about expensive clocks but modest longcase clocks which the owners truly love and would like to find more information. Lots of these people probably aren't clock collectors but they have been left the clock from a relative and would like to appreciate the item further. Helping these people is very enjoyable. But its difficult to spend the time sifting through the junk threads to find the relevant ones.

I am a member of FB page which has a little over 100 professional clockmakers many of whom are world class (plus me as a ring in!)...The conversation is pleasant and people show there work which is truly amazing. Yet most of these people have stopped participating in other clock forums as they often receive a lot of abuse when offering advice from "so-called" experts. The lost of these people's expertise is enormous.

As I said at the beginning of my ramble I don't have the solutions on how to retain the knowledgeable experts within the fields but maybe separating the Forums in "old" and "vintage" (was that described as "crap" somewhere? Use a non-ammoniated cleaner for the mouth wash LOL) or "English fusee/longcase" etc or "What is my clock?" forum might be a good start. As much as I would like to see a "Renaissance clock" forum I doubt there would be much interest. LOL.

Cheers
Dean
 

rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

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I am one of those that used to contribute to the Forums but stopped a month or so ago. I can add a few comments regarding the state of the board and its direction but I don't have any good solutions.

Clock collecting and research for me are a passion and enjoyable pastime. I am not a professional or make any pretenses to be but I understand my limitations and tend to stick to knitting so to speak. The enjoyment was somewhat dampened by a few comments with the final straw from some guy "who had visited a museum" and preferred their restoration methods (being a museum I assume that means no restoration). Given clock collecting is supposed to be fun pastime I decided to remove the source of the annoyance.

These sites tend to be a victim of their own success. As they grow and become more popular they attract more people who find them via search engines etc. I have watch a few FB clock pages quickly degenerate as more people join. Most of the new participates were not actually interested in clocks but simply wanted a free evaluation for the clock they had just purchased from the local thrift store to see if they could make a profit. They had zero interest in clocks. Some will argue that this is attracting new people to clocks but I think the reverse and it actually pushes long term experts away from these mediums. I feel the amount of threads for which I have no interest is always increasing and those that I am interested in get lost quite quickly or I miss them entirely. My preference is threads such as the restoration of the Etherington Bracket clock which rolled along for a year or so which I like to follow as the progression of the work showing it being returned to its former glory and I can learn different techniques and processes. The "What is my clock?" threads are becoming quite repetitive and I'm sure with 1 minute on google you could probably find what it was and the price anyway....

I learnt much of my initial knowledge through this forum and made an effort as I learnt more to pass that knowledge on to others but its become much harder given the volume of junk required to negotiate to see threads to which I can offer some information. (Predominantly pre 1800 English clocks). I'm not talking about expensive clocks but modest longcase clocks which the owners truly love and would like to find more information. Lots of these people probably aren't clock collectors but they have been left the clock from a relative and would like to appreciate the item further. Helping these people is very enjoyable. But its difficult to spend the time sifting through the junk threads to find the relevant ones.

I am a member of FB page which has a little over 100 professional clockmakers many of whom are world class (plus me as a ring in!)...The conversation is pleasant and people show there work which is truly amazing. Yet most of these people have stopped participating in other clock forums as they often receive a lot of abuse when offering advice from "so-called" experts. The lost of these people's expertise is enormous.

As I said at the beginning of my ramble I don't have the solutions on how to retain the knowledgeable experts within the fields but maybe separating the Forums in "old" and "vintage" (was that described as "crap" somewhere? Use a non-ammoniated cleaner for the mouth wash LOL) or "English fusee/longcase" etc or "What is my clock?" forum might be a good start. As much as I would like to see a "Renaissance clock" forum I doubt there would be much interest. LOL.

Cheers
Dean
Here, here!!

Your points are well stated and well taken.

Sorry you felt that you had no recourse but to stop participating, but sadly, an oft related account. Do those who are administrators of this MB even realize that this is significant issue? Are they content responding endlessly to inquiries about essentially the same few types of clocks found at Goodwill?

I have read your threads and found them very interesting. No, they are not generally about clocks that reflect my collecting interests. Much more refined and sophisticated. But still very interesting, well written and interesting. Very much worth the time to read and follow. That's sort of the point, isn't it?

Your departure, IMCO, is a true loss. Sadly, just more room for the tiresome typical.

Hopefully, something meaningful will come out of this discussion that will have you returning.

RM
 
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bruce linde

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dean - love your posts, sorry you let some random person with a submit button get to you. people are entitled to their opinions, but that doesn't make them anything more than their opinions. as you point out, it's tricky as groups get larger and more folks show up.

there are a couple of ways to survive intact:

- ignore people who are unpleasant, strident, or just wrong. in fact, you can adjust your preferences to have the MB ignore them automagically for you... look under settings for 'ignoring'

- find the people you want to engage with and engage with them. i used to play competitive tennis but gave it up because i much prefer setting up my own doubles where all four players are in it together, where everyone wins instead of someone having to lose.

- post where and when you can, helping those who need it and are appreciative... but pls don't leave. as RM says... your tastes are more refined and sophisticated but dang i love your clocks

also... if you were willing to moderate a 'renaissance clocks' forum, i would take the idea to the moderation team and see if we could make it happen. i would still want to post my ridgeway/tempus fugit grandfather clocks there... assume that would be ok? :)
 

DeanT

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also... if you were willing to moderate a 'renaissance clocks' forum, i would take the idea to the moderation team and see if we could make it happen. i would still want to post my ridgeway/tempus fugit grandfather clocks there... assume that would be ok? :)
I'd rather be part of the solution than part of the problem so I'd happily moderate a renaissance and/or early English clock forums.

Cheers

148_i.jpg 148_j.jpg
 

DeanT

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Wonderful early movement with more fusees than you can shake a stick at!

I would suspect an early attempt at better accuracy??

RM

Yeah 4 fusees. Hour and quarter striking plus ribotta hour striking where a full train repeats the previous hour several minutes later. As the early movements have no method of regulating the periodicity of oscillation via a pendulum or balance spring the periodicity is highly dependent on the strength of the spring. So most 16thC clocks need a fusee (or stackfreed in watches) to even out the spring power as it winds down. 4 does seem overkill and I believe it is the only known example.
 

Jim DuBois

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Dean, that is indeed a very special clock. I am pleased to see it join the discussion. We need to include here clocks and watches we don't normally find in our environments. And what could be better than this one? What is its approximate date? Maker? German, I think? Just a remarkable piece! Can we see more?
 

DeanT

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Probably Southern German, circa 1560's or 70's. 4 fusee for going, hour and quarter trains plus a complete additional hour striking train which strikes the hour several minutes after the first hour striking train. It's called Ribotta striking and might have been for people that missed the first strikes so they can count the next set. I believe its the only known example of 4 fusees from a renaissance clock. Should have a balance rather than the foliot which is a later replacement.

148_a.jpg 148_b.jpg 148_c.jpg 148_d.jpg 148_e.jpg 148_f.jpg 148_g.jpg 148_h.jpg 148_i.jpg 148_j.jpg 148_k.jpg 148_l.jpg 148_m.jpg 148_o.jpg 148_p.jpg 148_q.jpg 148_r.jpg
 

rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

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Probably Southern German, circa 1560's or 70's. 4 fusee for going, hour and quarter trains plus a complete additional hour striking train which strikes the hour several minutes after the first hour striking train. It's called Ribotta striking and might have been for people that missed the first strikes so they can count the next set. I believe its the only known example of 4 fusees from a renaissance clock. Should have a balance rather than the foliot which is a later replacement.

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Again, just wonderful!

Queen Elizabeth I was alive and Shakespeare was a little boy!

RM
 

Micam100

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I don’t know how you solve your problem without killing the goose that lays the golden eggs. How did each of you get to where you are now? Did your interest start with a mundane mantel clock (as mine did), or something more esoteric? I haven’t progressed much past the mantel clock stage but I never pass over one of DeanT’s posts.

Michael
 
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Jim DuBois

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Remarkable! One of my long-term interests has been "how did they do that" back in the day? While those interests are substantially later than this clock, I have discovered we don't have nearly as much information as to how work was done as I would like. Much of what we know about clockmaking in America circa 1700-1850 is at best nebulous and confusing. So, to take it even further back by a couple of hundred years it really does prompt the question, how did they do that giving their machines, power sources, illumination for work, optics required to do the work, on and on.

Please keep it coming Dean
 

D.th.munroe

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Yes thank you for that Dean, and the rest of your posts, I would be very interested in a renaissance or pre 1800 english clock thread.
Jim that has been one of my interests for a long time as well. I have found quite a bit out on the earlier stuff, but not quite enough yet.
 

gmorse

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Hi Dean,

That is certainly an exceptional clock, many thanks for posting it. Seeing a piece from that early period in such detail is very welcome. Having said that it's early, it's clearly the product of a well-developed technology so its predecessors would have been interesting to see. I especially like the fusee chains with their extended links, and the fact that some of the fusees are 'reversed'.

Regards,

Graham
 
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DeanT

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Hi Dean,

That is certainly an exceptional clock, many thanks for posting it. Seeing a piece from that early period in such detail is very welcome. Having said that it's early, it's clearly the product of a well-developed technology so its predecessors would have been interesting to see. I especially like the fusee chains with their extended links, and the fact that some of the fusees are 'reversed'.

Regards,

Graham
Hi Graham,

It's surprising to realize that there were quite a few complex astronomical clocks produced around the 1560-70's which are attributed to Metzger or his associates. The book by Maurice has photos of nearly 100 of them although the book mainly shows the cases. I've been fortunate enough to obtain some of the original photos which includes some movement photos from Maurice's book from a friend. Here's a few of them.



IMG_5634.jpeg IMG_5635.jpeg IMG_5603.jpeg IMG_5597.jpeg IMG_5598.jpeg IMG_5599.jpeg
 
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Jim DuBois

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These mechanisms are truly exceptional on several levels. The remarkable intellect behind them. Someone had to conceptualize them as a product that delivered something to a very refined audience (or very wealthy). Then someone had to sell the concept to a patron who would fund the soon-to-be project. (I think these were not built on speculation). Then someone had to engineer the product to deliver the required results, around the skills available, the resources available, and the time available. Then, with all that in place craftsmen had to build the mechanical product. Then case builders, engravers, guilders, and so on had to produce the finished product. Many very skilled crafts involved. Just managing the project from concept to finished product, and collecting the money, would have required a special sort of person. There had to be substantial infrastructure to build these things, Specialist crafts to forge the wrought iron materials, others to supply the steel materials, others for cast brass components, perhaps other specialists to supply wheels and pinions and fusees and the like. Someone to supply files and drills and other specialty tools, etc.
 
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Jim DuBois

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It is interesting to note these mechanisms followed the work of Da Vinci by less than 100 years. It seems that science and manufacturing had come a long way in a short amount of time. Da Vinci's work (illustrations at least) was cruder by a considerable amount. I have not found any earlier representation of a fusee prior to Da Vinci's rendering. He also was apparently the first to record the use of a wagon spring approach to powered a number of mechanisms. Our friend, Joseph Ives, followed his approach very closely but these drawing were not found until well after Ives implementation of wagon springs into clocks, and he also incorporated them into clocks with fusees.

da vinci clock drawing.jpg working model da vinci clock works.jpg da-vinci-mechanics.jpg 42.jpg 348_39.jpg da Vinci chain.jpg ives hour glass 2.JPG
 
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novicetimekeeper

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Fusees predate Da Vinci as far as I'm aware, Wikipedia seems to agree, though they are incorrect to suggest their use in clocks finished in the early 20th century, the finished not that long before the last quarter of the 20th century

 
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Bruce Barnes

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the day you quit learning and asking questions is the beginning of the end........
 

Jim DuBois

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IMG_5597 (4).jpg

In some remarkable engineering here we find a shaft, driven by a scroll/worm gear on a large shaft that drives this shaft with a worm on each end. Since the gears have different tooth counts they obviously will run at different rates. And since they are on opposite sides of the shaft, they will run in opposite directions. Also, the support brackets for this assembly is certainly well finished. Fantastic work never seen by owners or casual observers.
 

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