Let's see your earliest Hampdens

Discussion in 'American Pocket Watches' started by Jim Haney, Feb 13, 2019.

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  1. Rick Hufnagel

    Rick Hufnagel Just Rick!
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    #101 Rick Hufnagel, Apr 12, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2020
    Elgin had been making holie balance cocks since the early 70s, as far as I can tell at the moment from collecting observations.

    Ny/Hampden was no stranger to special orders on private labels.

    What makes these watches so interesting is their later characteristics.
    This whole run that includes Jim's new watch, is shown as Woolworth in 1875 as per inventory records.

    Somehow, they ended up being nickel movements labeled Hampden Watch Co, or M.J. & Co.

    Sure it was just a name change. But New York Watch Co closed in 1875. Reopened as the NY Watch Manufacturing co, which only lasted about 8 months, and closed, and the factory didn't reopen as Hampden untill summer of 77. "The old movement of the NY company was remodeled". This is according to Henry G Abbott

    It wasn't like everything just up and vanished and every new movement started after one specific serial number. There was tons of inventory around, and the fun of this thread is to see people's examples, and maybe figure at what serial numbers did these various remodeled grades actually start. It's interesting to identify movements made of leftover and new or made over parts. In the case of the movements like Jim's, they seem to be 100% Hampden DNA, but their serial number is lower than many NY watches. They were still finishing Bond movements as Hampden, I'm sure they interest you. Isn't it interesting to find out which ones should and shouldn't have a Hampden Dial on them? I would think misinformation has caused many incorrect dial swaps.

    There were certainly noticable and rapid changes between what was left behind, and what Hampden springfield ended up with as a lineup. Maybe at that point Cain had a better plan.

    This is all for what it's worth, I've only been on this a year or so, but it's interesting. I'm sure there's much much more to discover and learn.




    Sorry buddy but i don't understand, they match and it's the remodeled style as far as I can tell. Maybe I'm missing something? I think the artist just didn't accentuate the click.
     
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  2. LloydB

    LloydB Registered User

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    #102 LloydB, Apr 12, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2020
    Hmmmm. Perhaps I'm using the wrong term?
    or not understanding how a 'cut' was made?

    I had in mind this: "Cut" Click.jpg

    vs this: (cut missing the lower 'ears'?) CLICK2.jpg

    "Cut" Click.jpg
     
  3. luvsthetick

    luvsthetick Registered User

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    #103 luvsthetick, Apr 12, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2020
    I think the art work just omitted what you call the "ears" but is the new style.

    There is a style difference between clicks.

    DSC_0015ny.jpg
     
  4. Bila

    Bila Registered User
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    I think we need to be very careful with taking catalog cuts as gospel including some of the serial numbers that are part of them as in some cases with these, I have seen catalogue cuts of two different watch models with the same serial number. I think you will find in some cases to a certain degree with all the manufacturer's there has been a little artistic license used. On another note Rick what other watch models were shown in that "Jaccard" catalogue that you posted in that earlier post. I have a Mermod & Jaccard Catalog here but can not find a date on it anywhere, it also shows in it a 3rd type of click used so I wonder were it fits, early or later (probably later maybe?).
     
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  5. Tim Fitzgerald

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  6. Jskirk

    Jskirk Registered User
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    My New earliest Hampden
    1880 Lafayette PL
    J.L. GRAY Cortland N.Y
    In a nice 4oz Newport coin case
    I have not seen a dial like this ,is this original to this watch?
    Jay

    20200429_201558.jpg 20200429_201631.jpg 20200429_201731.jpg 20200429_201835.jpg 20200429_201850.jpg
     
  7. Bila

    Bila Registered User
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    Not to that one:)
     
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  8. Jskirk

    Jskirk Registered User
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    Ok why? Is it newer than the movement? Or what?
    Thanks
    Jay
     
  9. Rick Hufnagel

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    Nope, sorry! Single sunk block letter is what you would have had originally. Most likely with the circle. Like this 2022dc36af04399629d8bf787444ba99.jpg


    Your dial is off of a Dueber watch co made after the move to Canton.

    Awesome watch though, the Keywind Lafayette is not the most common. Yours is most likely 11 jewels.
     
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  10. Bila

    Bila Registered User
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    Much Newer!
     
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  11. Greg Frauenhoff

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  12. Greg Frauenhoff

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  13. Rick Hufnagel

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    Ooooo 6 Woolworths, 4 Springfields...and..... A NORTON! Love it! Thanks for sharing the page,Greg!
     
  14. Rick Hufnagel

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    Lowest SN Nickel Hampden:???: Haha. Maybe on a technicality.

    This is 3651. A state street movement private labeled for Alex Weed.

    Ive been after a state street for a while, and I told myself I'm not buying one unless it's a private label. This one is movement and dial marked... So I couldn't pass it up. It has a different damaskeen pattern than the norm, and it's not marked adjusted either. Thanks Fred H this is a perfect addition.

    The Hampden State streets fall in the 90,000 to 90500 range. Alex Weed is known for having his own serial numbers put on the watches.. so that is what this ultra low serial comes from. Fred makes mention (in his listing) of having a few serial numbers observed around the number of my new one. I only have one other in this range observed and its an oddball as well. There are a couple good threads on Alex Weed watches throughout the message board if you search.

    Check this sucker out! Hollow center pinion, early pivoted setting lever, pinned dial and looking pretty good! It's even has my favorite... The roseish gold trim!

    IMG_20200514_154023470.jpg IMG_20200514_154000795.jpg

    Unfortunately the lower balance pivot is toast. I'm sure it will be fun trying to figure out a balance staff for it. Any ideas please give me a shout! Thankfully the jewels are good!

    pulled the balance and it has 27 scribed on it. My heart sank. I thought for sure it was switched, but was pleasantly mistaken!
    IMG_20200514_161103757.jpg IMG_20200514_161022274.jpg IMG_20200514_161224833.jpg IMG_20200514_161502272.jpg

    The barrel and cap, pallet cock, both plates, balance cock and balance all have 27 engraved on them! I can only theorize this may actually be 90,027? Who knows.

    Nice damaskeen on the inside of the pillar plate!
    IMG_20200514_161354656.jpg

    And the underdial!
    IMG_20200514_161406479.jpg

    I am completely thrilled with this if you can't tell! The stem wind and lever set is set up just like the 18s hollow center pinion movements... Just a touch smaller. I'm glad I waited for the right state street.

    I will say the parts are not finished as nicely as I expected. Maybe they saved that for the Bond movements. Don't have one for comparison... Yet...

    The NAWCC library and James Campbell specifically was super helpful with some research and through the information I've learned that Hampden had a material class system, where state street stands on its own as class 3.

    Thanks for checking it out and have a good day!
     
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  15. musicguy

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    Great find Rick.

    Rob
     
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  16. Rick Hufnagel

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    #116 Rick Hufnagel, Jun 10, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2020
    This is 55169.
    A "Hampden" grade.

    All the serial numbers match.

    It showed up Monday, and since I was eagerly anticipating its arrival, it's already been torn down, cleaned and oiled. It's running well. Balance endshake needs adjusted but really a pretty looking example of a movement that has been on my radar for some time. Recased in a very interesting enamel coated nickel hunter.

    These watches show up from 55,000 to 55,500, so at an estimated 500 serial numbers, it's moderately uncommon.

    The earliest one on my observation list is this one posted by Fred H in this thread.

    Hampden Watch Co. or New York Watch Co.?

    It's number 55082 and has a different damaskeen pattern. Pretty neat.

    The highest observation I've seen is from the last run of this grade in Mr. Ziebells inventory records, and is all Gilt with a Hampden dial. The serial number is on the Gilt barrel bridge, so it's definitely correct. Interesting?? I thought so.

    You can see in this fantastic 1876 J.T. Scott listing posted by Greg Frauenhoff that some Hampden Grade had been sold before the name change.
    New York Watch Co. precursors to Hampden.

    55169 doesn't show up in the inventory records, and with a combination of various features and after a few emails, it's going into the Hampden thread here.

    I think the biggest shock to me was the pallet. The pallet was a nice curved and polished lever that I've not seen on any New York, but is more consistent with watches well into the Hampden range. You never know though. Not enough info collected.

    It is 11 jewels. Escape and pallet jeweled in pairs. 16,200 bph

    Regardless, I love it! Thanks to Jim for the heads up on this one.

    IMG_20200609_174347574_HDR.jpg IMG_20200609_174444004.jpg IMG_20200609_174424897_HDR.jpg IMG_20200609_174410924_HDR.jpg
     
  17. luvsthetick

    luvsthetick Registered User

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    Rick,

    Nice one!
     
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  18. Downing

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    My two Hampdens happen to also be my two oldest watches: 1880 and 1888.

    Regarding the 1880, I cleaned the dial and really need to take another picture. Amazing what removing 140 years of dust and dirt can do for a watch's appearance.

    It's a key wind/set. I don't want to risk damage to the dial, so when I play with this one I just wait until the actual time matches what's on the dial, then wind it.

    The 1888 is a 6s waiting to be handed down to my grand daughter.

    The attached poster makes me laugh. The print's probably too small to read here, but basically Grandma's nearly blind and deaf but by golly she can hear that Hampden!

    45078_02.jpeg 45078_03.jpeg il_fullxfull.1982832741_7tuy.jpeg il_794xN.1982833001_mr7g.jpeg il_fullxfull.1935300362_lsqv.jpeg 1880-_KELLER_BROTHERS_-_TRADE_CARD_-_ALLENTOWN_PA.jpeg
     
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  19. BenJB

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  20. steamer471

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    Like that. have a picture of the dial?
     
  21. Joe Blossic

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    Circa 1879, SN# 81775, 18S, 11J, M1, Grade 30, KWKS
    20200621_164714.jpg 20200621_164731.jpg 20200621_164758.jpg 20200621_165122.jpg 20200621_165201.jpg
     
  22. Rick Hufnagel

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    Found another discrepancy between the inventory pamphlet and actual production. Identifying these runs is a great project.

    This is 54827, fronted by a Hampden dial.
    In the inventory it is listed as "Rice".

    Rice is 7 jewels with an Uncut "imitation expansion balance"

    This watch is 11 jewels with a cut expansion balance, consistent with the "Hayward" grade.

    Another interesting piece of the puzzle.

    IMG_20200621_151305167_HDR.jpg IMG_20200621_151239451.jpg
     
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  23. Steven Thornberry

    Steven Thornberry User Administrator
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    Yes indeed. FWIW, Nathan Moore's site lists the grade of your movement as "Unknown" and the number of jewels as 15.
     
  24. Rick Hufnagel

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    Aye, it does.

    In defence of any lookup database, these runs are a mountain of a mess. It wouldn't surprise me to find two or three grades mixed into it, although it is not the case with this particular run.

    I will say that this is my fifth observation (first in hand) from 54500-55000 and they are all match the description of "Hayward" and are all private labels.

    Time and observations will tell! This is the fun part!
     

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