Let's see your earliest Hampdens

Rick Hufnagel

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I think what confuses me is the implication that Hampden "moved in." It was just a name change to name that factory after the county it had always been located in. The New York Watch Manufacturing Co. and the Hampden Watch Co. had the same employees and essentially the same management. The Woolworth and Menlo Park have never been all that interesting for me, but they did not seem particularly strange either.
None of the basic operations changed until they moved to Canton. These watches were developed while Cain was in charge in Springfield.

Maybe Dueber had asked him for something that competed more directly with the Waltham and Elgin less expensive lines. Wasn't Elgin making the fenestrated balance cocks at that time for private labels?
Elgin had been making holie balance cocks since the early 70s, as far as I can tell at the moment from collecting observations.

Ny/Hampden was no stranger to special orders on private labels.

What makes these watches so interesting is their later characteristics.
This whole run that includes Jim's new watch, is shown as Woolworth in 1875 as per inventory records.

Somehow, they ended up being nickel movements labeled Hampden Watch Co, or M.J. & Co.

Sure it was just a name change. But New York Watch Co closed in 1875. Reopened as the NY Watch Manufacturing co, which only lasted about 8 months, and closed, and the factory didn't reopen as Hampden untill summer of 77. "The old movement of the NY company was remodeled". This is according to Henry G Abbott

It wasn't like everything just up and vanished and every new movement started after one specific serial number. There was tons of inventory around, and the fun of this thread is to see people's examples, and maybe figure at what serial numbers did these various remodeled grades actually start. It's interesting to identify movements made of leftover and new or made over parts. In the case of the movements like Jim's, they seem to be 100% Hampden DNA, but their serial number is lower than many NY watches. They were still finishing Bond movements as Hampden, I'm sure they interest you. Isn't it interesting to find out which ones should and shouldn't have a Hampden Dial on them? I would think misinformation has caused many incorrect dial swaps.

There were certainly noticable and rapid changes between what was left behind, and what Hampden springfield ended up with as a lineup. Maybe at that point Cain had a better plan.

This is all for what it's worth, I've only been on this a year or so, but it's interesting. I'm sure there's much much more to discover and learn.




It does NOT, however, have the 'new' style
click, that's been discussed here several times.
Sorry buddy but i don't understand, they match and it's the remodeled style as far as I can tell. Maybe I'm missing something? I think the artist just didn't accentuate the click.
 
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Bila

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I think we need to be very careful with taking catalog cuts as gospel including some of the serial numbers that are part of them as in some cases with these, I have seen catalogue cuts of two different watch models with the same serial number. I think you will find in some cases to a certain degree with all the manufacturer's there has been a little artistic license used. On another note Rick what other watch models were shown in that "Jaccard" catalogue that you posted in that earlier post. I have a Mermod & Jaccard Catalog here but can not find a date on it anywhere, it also shows in it a 3rd type of click used so I wonder were it fits, early or later (probably later maybe?).
 
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Rick Hufnagel

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I have not seen a dial like this ,is this original to this watch?
Nope, sorry! Single sunk block letter is what you would have had originally. Most likely with the circle. Like this 2022dc36af04399629d8bf787444ba99.jpg


Your dial is off of a Dueber watch co made after the move to Canton.

Awesome watch though, the Keywind Lafayette is not the most common. Yours is most likely 11 jewels.
 

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Rick Hufnagel

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Lowest SN Nickel Hampden:???: Haha. Maybe on a technicality.

This is 3651. A state street movement private labeled for Alex Weed.

Ive been after a state street for a while, and I told myself I'm not buying one unless it's a private label. This one is movement and dial marked... So I couldn't pass it up. It has a different damaskeen pattern than the norm, and it's not marked adjusted either. Thanks Fred H this is a perfect addition.

The Hampden State streets fall in the 90,000 to 90500 range. Alex Weed is known for having his own serial numbers put on the watches.. so that is what this ultra low serial comes from. Fred makes mention (in his listing) of having a few serial numbers observed around the number of my new one. I only have one other in this range observed and its an oddball as well. There are a couple good threads on Alex Weed watches throughout the message board if you search.

Check this sucker out! Hollow center pinion, early pivoted setting lever, pinned dial and looking pretty good! It's even has my favorite... The roseish gold trim!

IMG_20200514_154023470.jpg IMG_20200514_154000795.jpg

Unfortunately the lower balance pivot is toast. I'm sure it will be fun trying to figure out a balance staff for it. Any ideas please give me a shout! Thankfully the jewels are good!

pulled the balance and it has 27 scribed on it. My heart sank. I thought for sure it was switched, but was pleasantly mistaken!
IMG_20200514_161103757.jpg IMG_20200514_161022274.jpg IMG_20200514_161224833.jpg IMG_20200514_161502272.jpg

The barrel and cap, pallet cock, both plates, balance cock and balance all have 27 engraved on them! I can only theorize this may actually be 90,027? Who knows.

Nice damaskeen on the inside of the pillar plate!
IMG_20200514_161354656.jpg

And the underdial!
IMG_20200514_161406479.jpg

I am completely thrilled with this if you can't tell! The stem wind and lever set is set up just like the 18s hollow center pinion movements... Just a touch smaller. I'm glad I waited for the right state street.

I will say the parts are not finished as nicely as I expected. Maybe they saved that for the Bond movements. Don't have one for comparison... Yet...

The NAWCC library and James Campbell specifically was super helpful with some research and through the information I've learned that Hampden had a material class system, where state street stands on its own as class 3.

Thanks for checking it out and have a good day!
 

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Check this sucker out! Hollow center pinion, early pivoted setting lever, pinned dial and looking pretty good! It's even has my favorite... The roseish gold trim!
Great find Rick.

Rob
 
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Rick Hufnagel

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This is 55169.
A "Hampden" grade.

All the serial numbers match.

It showed up Monday, and since I was eagerly anticipating its arrival, it's already been torn down, cleaned and oiled. It's running well. Balance endshake needs adjusted but really a pretty looking example of a movement that has been on my radar for some time. Recased in a very interesting enamel coated nickel hunter.

These watches show up from 55,000 to 55,500, so at an estimated 500 serial numbers, it's moderately uncommon.

The earliest one on my observation list is this one posted by Fred H in this thread.

Hampden Watch Co. or New York Watch Co.?

It's number 55082 and has a different damaskeen pattern. Pretty neat.

The highest observation I've seen is from the last run of this grade in Mr. Ziebells inventory records, and is all Gilt with a Hampden dial. The serial number is on the Gilt barrel bridge, so it's definitely correct. Interesting?? I thought so.

You can see in this fantastic 1876 J.T. Scott listing posted by Greg Frauenhoff that some Hampden Grade had been sold before the name change.
New York Watch Co. precursors to Hampden.

55169 doesn't show up in the inventory records, and with a combination of various features and after a few emails, it's going into the Hampden thread here.

I think the biggest shock to me was the pallet. The pallet was a nice curved and polished lever that I've not seen on any New York, but is more consistent with watches well into the Hampden range. You never know though. Not enough info collected.

It is 11 jewels. Escape and pallet jeweled in pairs. 16,200 bph

Regardless, I love it! Thanks to Jim for the heads up on this one.

IMG_20200609_174347574_HDR.jpg IMG_20200609_174444004.jpg IMG_20200609_174424897_HDR.jpg IMG_20200609_174410924_HDR.jpg
 
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My two Hampdens happen to also be my two oldest watches: 1880 and 1888.

Regarding the 1880, I cleaned the dial and really need to take another picture. Amazing what removing 140 years of dust and dirt can do for a watch's appearance.

It's a key wind/set. I don't want to risk damage to the dial, so when I play with this one I just wait until the actual time matches what's on the dial, then wind it.

The 1888 is a 6s waiting to be handed down to my grand daughter.

The attached poster makes me laugh. The print's probably too small to read here, but basically Grandma's nearly blind and deaf but by golly she can hear that Hampden!

45078_02.jpeg 45078_03.jpeg il_fullxfull.1982832741_7tuy.jpeg il_794xN.1982833001_mr7g.jpeg il_fullxfull.1935300362_lsqv.jpeg 1880-_KELLER_BROTHERS_-_TRADE_CARD_-_ALLENTOWN_PA.jpeg
 

Rick Hufnagel

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Found another discrepancy between the inventory pamphlet and actual production. Identifying these runs is a great project.

This is 54827, fronted by a Hampden dial.
In the inventory it is listed as "Rice".

Rice is 7 jewels with an Uncut "imitation expansion balance"

This watch is 11 jewels with a cut expansion balance, consistent with the "Hayward" grade.

Another interesting piece of the puzzle.

IMG_20200621_151305167_HDR.jpg IMG_20200621_151239451.jpg
 

Rick Hufnagel

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Aye, it does.

In defence of any lookup database, these runs are a mountain of a mess. It wouldn't surprise me to find two or three grades mixed into it, although it is not the case with this particular run.

I will say that this is my fifth observation (first in hand) from 54500-55000 and they are all match the description of "Hayward" and are all private labels.

Time and observations will tell! This is the fun part!
 

Rick Hufnagel

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53047
Woolworth
Hampden dial

IMG_20200626_161154730_HDR.jpg

In the inventory records it is labeled as a Billings. (53000-53200)

This is my fourth observation from this run. Three Woolworth marked movements and one private label.

They all have the shallow engraved balance cock, the three Woolworths all have the fancy engraved "Springfield" they all have actual jewel settings.

IMG_20200626_161215788_HDR.jpg

The first thing I did was check the serial on the balance cock because of the engraving, and the serial numbers match.

IMG_20200626_160411935.jpg


Its interesting to note, that the 1876 price list (Greg posted) reports that Billings have real jewel settings, and Woolworth does not. There is not too much more of a difference in the two. Plus.. a short cock Billings has never been seen by myself or anyone I've spoken with. This list does NOT specify short or long cock, or old or new model ECT ECT.

An 1880 Price list (S.F. Myers) shows that neither of the Keywind Woolworths have real jewel settings. Interesting as well, because here it is above in this post, along with many other observations of Woolworths from 41,000-54200 runs that started out intended to be the Billings grade.

At this point Im starting to think there are no real New York finished and sold Woolworth short cock movements. In fact, I think in 1877 when the name changed they still had long cock Woolworths to get rid of first.

This is all just from observations against the inventory compilation mind you, and there is much more to be revealed I'm sure. Nothing is definite, of course.

One last note, between the last Woolworths I have noted in the earlier runs ending with 54200, and the next highest run of Woolworth movements I've been able to find (1171xx), they are around 62,900 serial numbers apart! They obviously didn't need to make any new ones for quite a while!

I'm thinking the one on this post would be better dated around 1879-80.
 
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Rick Hufnagel

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Hey everyone! it's been about 6 months since this thread was in the top of the pile, and I wanted to bump it up.

In the last post I mentioned how it looks like the vast majority of pre 58,000 short cock Woolworths are Hampden, and there were still long cock Woolworths left when the name changed to Hampden.

I believe this is one such watch. It's from a rather large gap in the inventory list. two observations: both Woolworths and both with identical Hampden dials in the same serial range have been spotted. (I know.... it's only two) The adjusted marking on these long balance cock models is usually on the top plate and says "Adj Temp". Some are on the balance cock, but this one is the same font and placement more consistent with Hampden.

33323, Woolworth Adjusted.
fd430d52d1e99e620ca23f92540c626a.jpg 35bdc6ee30b5e4bb35573824515edc6c.jpg
This watch came home a while ago, surely some of you had seen it for sale. I have a Woolworth problem.

I've also been working on trying to use private label names to more accurately date some long cock movements. I think this will eventually yield some interesting results.

If would be so much easier if they just engraved Hampden watch co on the movements. But then... That would take the fun out of this.
 

johnbscott

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Hey everyone! it's been about 6 months since this thread was in the top of the pile, and I wanted to bump it up.

In the last post I mentioned how it looks like the vast majority of pre 58,000 short cock Woolworths are Hampden, and there were still long cock Woolworths left when the name changed to Hampden.

I believe this is one such watch. It's from a rather large gap in the inventory list. two observations: both Woolworths and both with identical Hampden dials in the same serial range have been spotted. (I know.... it's only two) The adjusted marking on these long balance cock models is usually on the top plate and says "Adj Temp". Some are on the balance cock, but this one is the same font and placement more consistent with Hampden.

33323, Woolworth Adjusted.
View attachment 627958 View attachment 627959
This watch came home a while ago, surely some of you had seen it for sale. I have a Woolworth problem.

I've also been working on trying to use private label names to more accurately date some long cock movements. I think this will eventually yield some interesting results.

If would be so much easier if they just engraved Hampden watch co on the movements. But then... That would take the fun out of this.
 

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Rick,
Very nice watch and I know you enjoyed cleaning it up and going over it to get it running like new.

I am in the old school camp on these watches. All of the long cock watches, I believe were made by the New York Watch Co. and when Hampden came in they started the short cock models.

How many of the old movements were left over and at which stage of assembly or finishing, we will most likely never know.

If the NYWC movements were finished by Hampden are they Hampden's ??

I have seen and own some of the earliest Hampdens with the old NYWC clicks,so who made the watch?

The lines become very blurry and even the Damaskeening on the balance cocks, long or short, are the same. ;)o_O

Whatever the circumstances were, it is interesting to find, resurrect, collect these old watches.
 
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Rick Hufnagel

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John, 24441 is in inventory in 1872. It's not marked adjusted. Other examples around it are the same as yours. There is nothing to indicate this wasn't a normal production watch.

Jim,
I can understand the old school thoughts where the one model is Hampden and the other is new York, but it's just not true. Its convenient. New York made the Short cock models as well at the end. There is even a difference in the short cock model from it's beginnings to the "Hampden model 1". They use different balance staffs, different balance jewels, different balances, And that's just a few things.

All I can do is collect data and interpret it to the best of my abilities. No one has to agree. I figured putting one of the long cock models up here would cause a stir.
 
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johnbscott

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John, 24441 is in inventory in 1872. It's not marked adjusted. Other examples around it are the same as yours. There is nothing to indicate this wasn't a normal production watch.

Jim,
I can understand the old school thoughts where the one model is Hampden and the other is new York, but it's just not true. Its convenient. New York made the Short cock models as well at the end. There is even a difference in the short cock model from it's beginnings to the "Hampden model 1". They use different balance staffs, different balance jewels, different balances, And that's just a few things.

All I can do is collect data and interpret it to the best of my abilities. No one has to agree. I figured putting one of the long cock models up here would cause a stir.

Thanks, Rick. My 24441 is marked "Ad Tempt" on the cock. I expect that is somewhere between Unadjusted and Adjusted, in terms of quality (and price new).

I am wondering whether your 33323 should have a New York Watch Co dial? I ask that because I have read that the NYWCo - Hampden changeover serial number is thought to be somewhere in the 40 thousands range.
 

Rick Hufnagel

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My 24441 is marked "Ad Tempt" on the cock. I
I apologize I just quickly glanced at the plates and missed the adj marking on the balance cock.

I dont think we can put any sort of serial number on a cutoff. There were all makes and models of watches left from NYWCo for years after normal Hampden production started. Including very early serial numbers.

There's certainly a possibility the dial should say NYWCo, but I would never change it. It's just as possible that it's correct. Just have to see what kind of patterns emerge from collecting more information.

Nothing is certain, I just hope to make people think.
 
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johnbscott

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I apologize I just quickly glanced at the plates and missed the adj marking on the balance cock.

I dont think we can put any sort of serial number on a cutoff. There were all makes and models of watches left from NYWCo for years after normal Hampden production started. Including very early serial numbers.

There's certainly a possibility the dial should say NYWCo, but I would never change it. It's just as possible that it's correct. Just have to see what kind of patterns emerge from collecting more information.

Nothing is certain, I just hope to make people think.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Here is an image of the movement of 244441. A lovely watch that was a progenitor of the later Hampdens.

NYWCo 18s 24441 movt a.jpg
 

luvsthetick

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Here is an image of the movement of 244441. A lovely watch that was a progenitor of the later Hampdens.
Nice watch John. A regulator ought to be easy to find.

Here is a Woolworth I have that is a lower serial number (20627) and is not marked adjusted.

NY Watch Co. dial.

DSC_0005a.jpg

Housed in a nice Dueber coin case.

DSC_0007a.jpg

I think NY probably finished this one.

DSC_0014ae.jpg
 
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JackC

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My only Hampden, so I guess it is the earliest one I own. A Model 4, 18s, 15j, Lever set Hunting case with a Teske regulator. Adjusted NO and RR grade NO. I got all this info from the Hampden Duerer info site. It was my maternal Grandfathers watch. He moved from Wisconsin to Southern Saskatchewan in 1907. I had it cleaned and serviced in 2010 then put it away and totally forgot about it until I was Covid cleaning yesterday and found it. Wound it and checked it this morning. Seems to be accurate so far. IMG_4137.JPEG IMG_4518.jpg IMG_4520.JPG
 

Jim Haney

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Hello Jack,
Welcome to the NAWCC Forums and welcome to the NAWCC.

You take very good pictures. It is a good thing that you have a family heirloom that works.

The regulator needs a piece and also a case screw to hold the movement in the case properly.

Minor details that can be found easily.
 
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JackC

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Thanks
Hello Jack,
Welcome to the NAWCC Forums and welcome to the NAWCC.

You take very good pictures. It is a good thing that you have a family heirloom that works.

The regulator needs a pieces and also a case screw to hold in the case properly.Minor details that can be found easily.
Thanks Jim. I really have no intention of ever doing anything with the watch. I might try to find some kind of case and put it away. We do have three sons and a grandson so one of them will probably inherit it. I wonder why the guy who serviced it never mention the missing pieces? I know he charged he $200 USD. There are a lot of amazing and beautiful old watches here. This might be a rabbit hole a guy could fall into easily!!
 
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Jim Haney

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Jack,

As you look at the watch threads here and become interested in them, you will most likely fall into the hole..

The case screw most likely fell out in the last 10 years and the regulator will work without the screw adjuster, so he didn't mention it.
Not all watch repair people are created equally.....:emoji_disappointed:
 

JackC

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Again Thanks for the info. It is amazing that 100 year old things can still work and look so good. Have a HAPPY NEW YEAR.
Jack,

As you look at the watch threads here and become interested in them, you will most likely fall into the hole..

The case screw most likely fell out in the last 10 years and the regulator will work without the screw adjuster, so he didn't mention it.
Not all watch repair people are created equally.....:emoji_disappointed:
 

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Jack,

I would like to add my welcome to Jim's above. Thanks for sharing your
family watch.


Rob
 

Rick Hufnagel

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There was a large carry over from the New York Watch Co. Springfield, Mass, so when Hampden started producing watches there was a mix of the old and the new.
This is essentially a leftover Hayward.

63437 is 11 jewels, 16,200bph. It has those nice large jewels and the deep engraved balance cock. The balance wheel is uncut.
20210512_213727.jpg
The dial at first glance is uninteresting
20210512_213631.jpg

I knew what this dial actually is before it arrived and finally able to hit the light just right on one of these to give any interested readers a good view of the spot where New York Watch Co was polished off.
20210512_214430.jpg

It also still has the old style mainspring with a hole end. Thankfully this one wasn't modified for a T end spring. Please don't drill these out! You can use an Elgin 812 mainspring on any long or short cock NY/Hampden which requires a hole end spring.
20210512_190329.jpg


I don't know what to actually call this grade. Maybe not anything. Like I said earlier it's basically a Hayward finished up with a new ratchet wheel, keyguard and click. All of the ones I've seen in this manner are private labels (except my blank one). They are sporadically thrown into Hayward runs in the New York Inventory records, and also appear in the 62000-63500 range. This is not a "run" and is just where they have been spotted. The names on these watches include Fredonia, Lake Shore, West Penn Watch Co, Kenilworth ect ect.

Well at any rate I just wanted to point out some interesting features on this watch. Have a good day, thanks for reading.
 

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This post might have graced the 'Most Recent Addition' thread,
but surely, bumping up this now year-old topic is its own reward.

This private label 'FAVORITE' has little to recommend it, save for
its likely rarity: how many of these 7-jewel items can have survived?

The Hampden Book lists one at SN 65xxx, and more at SN 86xxx,
as with the one below (SN 86003). It appears to have had very little
use, and perhaps Rick will advise me about finding a proper staff.

The unmarked dial is interesting, and an identical dial appeared
on a recently-sold, 7j 'Springfield' model. Are these dials original
to Hampdens, or were they replacements, I wonder?


FAV1R.jpg FAV R2 DIAL.jpg
 

Rick Hufnagel

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Great catch Lloyd!

683xx is the only other favorite I have in the observation list. Same thing. 7 jewel Springfield. Same dial

These awesome unsigned, flat dials with faux seconds bit appear on earlier Springfield grade watches. I have one on my Loomis watch #65984 which is 11 jewel Springfield.

Just looking at the list I've been keeping(which needs updated with collected observations very badly) these dials are seen early on. Springfield grade watches between 58,000-69,000 is where I would expect to see this dial. That's not to say there are not ones out of that range, it's just what research and ob's tell at the moment. Yours is definitely the highest serial number I've seen but it matches. There's a very low outlier as well in the early 50,000s.

I don't see why the watch shouldn't take the regular 1720 balance staff. I did an 11 jewel Springfield #63437 with the 1720.
 
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Rick Hufnagel

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41256 is a "HWCo" grade private label
It is 15 jewels and 18,000bph
Damaskeened throughout. Nice quality movement. I had everything ready to dig into it this morning so... here it is.

20220423_125040.jpg 20220423_123730.jpg


In the New York inventory records, 41000-41400 are labeled as Woolworth in various stages of completion.

Actual observations from 41000-41400
41155 MJ&Cos RR
41165 MJ&Cos RR
These two match the movement shown in this post. It is two separate watches not just a misread SN.

41209 is a private label matching "Woolworth" grade. Long balance cock model.

41294 Marked Hampden Watch Co and matches movement in this post.

41320 is a Chester Woolworth with a chronograph/stopwatch complication. Long balance cock model

41365 Marked Hampden Watch Co and matches movement in this post

So we have a couple of the gilt Woolworths you would expect to see and a few of HWCo grade movements as well.

It's exciting to find one of these early obviously Hampden nickel movements and confirm it's jeweling and it's BPH for the observation list.


The HWCo grade came in key and stem, 11 and 15 jewels.

This image courtesy of the Harvard Library. 1883 Hampden Material Catalog.
Screenshot_20220423-143042.png
Later on (sometime after 1883) these movements were numbered 30,31,40 and 41. You can identify them easily because the jewels are burnished into the nickel plates with no settings or faux settings. Hampden added a little 15 under the serial number to differentiate the grades at some point (I guess there was confusion between the 11 & 15 jewel movements). I don't know when they started doing this. The earliest one I've seen is around 200,000. The 15 jewel versions also received double sunk dials at some point as well, around the same time the movements were marked "15".
Here is one such movement a grade 40 (or HWCo, key, 15 jewels) with a double sunk dial, marked 15 and a patent regulator. #206120. So, it's the same as the early one shown above, just a few improvements.

Sorry I went off the rails there... Got carried away.
Have a good day!
 

Greg Frauenhoff

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Do you have a picture of #41320? Years ago I held an early Hampden "timer" but neglected to record any info about it.

Thanks in advance.
 

Rick Hufnagel

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Greg Frauenhoff

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Rick,

Thanks for the link. The stop lever is where I remember seeing it in the other watch (or maybe this is the same one).

In J. C. Perry's memo books there appears an order for one of these timers. When I get a chance I'll post a pic.

Greg
 
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