Let's see your earliest Hampdens

Mike M.

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Here's my earliest, a J.C. Perry, #52950. I always thought of this as a New York Watch Co. movement that was fitted with a Hampden dial, but after reading this thread, it is apparently a true Hampden.
The (re)case has always been somewhat of a mystery to me. It appears to be English, but this is the way it came to me and it fits...even has the keyhole in the right place:)

IMG_0530.jpg IMG_0533.jpg IMG_0537.jpg IMG_0555.jpg IMG_0553.jpg IMG_0534.jpg
 

Greg Frauenhoff

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Here's my earliest, a J.C. Perry, #52950. I always thought of this as a New York Watch Co. movement that was fitted with a Hampden dial, but after reading this thread, it is apparently a true Hampden.
The (re)case has always been somewhat of a mystery to me. It appears to be English, but this is the way it came to me and it fits...even has the keyhole in the right place:)

View attachment 520310 View attachment 520311 View attachment 520312 View attachment 520322 View attachment 520323 View attachment 520325
Hi Mike,

I would be inclined to agree that your Perry is a Hampden product if it had a DS dial of the appropriate style. But with a SS dial I'd lean towards the dial being a replacement.

Greg
 

Mike M.

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Hi Mike,

I would be inclined to agree that your Perry is a Hampden product if it had a DS dial of the appropriate style. But with a SS dial I'd lean towards the dial being a replacement.

Greg
Hi Greg,
I
Hi Mike,

I would be inclined to agree that your Perry is a Hampden product if it had a DS dial of the appropriate style. But with a SS dial I'd lean towards the dial being a replacement.

Greg
Hi Greg,
I just rediscovered a thread from 2011 where we discussed this watch. I had forgotten all about it. You never said anything about the dial, though. Were there double sunk dials for the early key winds? I can't recall ever seeing one, but then as you might have noticed at the beginning, I seem to be having memory problems:confused:
 

Greg Frauenhoff

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Hi Greg,
I

Hi Greg,
I just rediscovered a thread from 2011 where we discussed this watch. I had forgotten all about it. You never said anything about the dial, though. Were there double sunk dials for the early key winds? I can't recall ever seeing one, but then as you might have noticed at the beginning, I seem to be having memory problems:confused:
I'd forgotten about the old thread as well.

I will review what little info there is handy about the early Perry's and see if the KW variety is noted as having a DS dial.

Cheers
 

Bryan Eyring

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Here's one from the esteemed Jon Hanson collection. Jon is, curiously, no longer permitted to post here, despite latest assurance that his privileges would be reinstated.

It's sad that members are being denied the opportunity to view great pieces from his collection so in his absence I will post some on his behalf!

img106.jpg
 

Rick Hufnagel

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Finally found an earlier Hampden! It is such an awesome watch! Couple little tweaks with the Hairspring and it kept perfect time. This is a Woolworth, serial number 46151. Obviously a recase, but the price reflected that, and I'm very happy with it. I didn't know where to post this, but for research sake, this seems to be the right place. The more added the more we can find online! I have researched this a bit and the only other example I found around this serial number also has the Hampden dial also it. Also, it just says woolworth instead of the full name, so I feel confident the movement and dial are original. That case screw has to go, but the condition is wonderfull!

IMG_20190415_213454288.jpg IMG_20190415_213526179.jpg
 

179

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Just Rick ! Nice watch, plate condition is great. Just wondering what your thoughts are on the full name? I like the click design on these.
 
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Rick Hufnagel

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Well... from this thread and all of it's great posts, Hampden seems to have cut the first names off of the grades . Chester Woolworth, as an example, would be a new York. In my opinion.

I like the clicks too! Makes it really easy to let down.
 
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179

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Many companies omitted first and middle names on their named grades. Illinois had, Stuart, Bunn, Currier, Mason, Bates. Elgin sometimes used initials B.W. Raymond and so on . I believe some of this had to do with the space available, and the size lettering they wished to use.
 

Rick Hufnagel

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I've just noticed a trend in the watch signatures in new York vs. Hampden is all, I could be completely wrong. It gets difficult to nail down with so many out there with switched dials.

As far as this one goes I am very confident it is Hampden.
 

Greg Frauenhoff

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I've just noticed a trend in the watch signatures in new York vs. Hampden is all, I could be completely wrong. It gets difficult to nail down with so many out there with switched dials.

As far as this one goes I am very confident it is Hampden.
Nice watch. I agree that it is most likely a Hampden.
 

Kent

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... I have researched this a bit and the only other example I found around this serial number also has the Hampden dial also it. Also, it just says woolworth instead of the full name, so I feel confident the movement and dial are original. ...
Nice watch!

Woolworth serial number 46154, a seemingly identical movement and dial (and the same hands) in a Dueber coin silver case was offered on eBay starting at $169 five years ago. The auction ended with no bids. It wasn't in as nice a condition as your watch.
 
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Greg Frauenhoff

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Kent

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... Here is another, 47132, Woolworth, Hampden dial if your keeping track. ...
Yes, I am keeping track. Considering when they were built, I believe that they would been accepted on many railroads that had watch inspection programs. As to whether they'd be grandfathered forward once patent regulators were required, well that's another story. Their owners would have been part of the market that Tucker and Teske were addressing.

So, I've added it and your watch to the data base that Ed Ueberall and I maintain of surviving examples of railroad watches and other interesting (to us) watches (which now has grown to well over 65,000 watches).

1889_July_Tucker_TimeAntiquarian.jpg 1882_May-17_Teske_Regulator.jpg
 
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Rick Hufnagel

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I was thinking that since it was 15 jewels and adjusted that it may have been accepted, thank you again!

I had found a Rockford model 2 with a teske, but the movement is pretty shot, still a neat example though.

Thank you for keeping track of the things you do, it's always great to see your posts.

I'm going to check out the requirements to have a patent regulator. I need to learn more about that!
 
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LloydB

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Finally found an earlier Hampden! It is such an awesome watch! Couple little tweaks with the Hairspring and it kept perfect time. This is a Woolworth, serial number 46151. Obviously a recase, but the price reflected that, and I'm very happy with it. I didn't know where to post this, but for research sake, this seems to be the right place. The more added the more we can find online! I have researched this a bit and the only other example I found around this serial number also has the Hampden dial also it. Also, it just says woolworth instead of the full name, so I feel confident the movement and dial are original. That case screw has to go, but the condition is wonderfull!

View attachment 528476 View attachment 528477
FWIW, my own 'Woolworth' is some 200,000 units younger,
so, not 'early'. The barrel bridge engraving is in a block style,
with 'PAT PINION' added. The balance cock engraving is different,
and the serial number is relocated to the top plate.

Otherwise, it's very similar in appearance. It retains the
single-case-screw & locator pin arrangement, as well as
the older style click.
 
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Jim Haney

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Serial number is 55506 , I would assume a Private Label "Novelty" It has a N.Y Dial but it is a short balance cock and the Hampden click on the MS barrel.

DSCN3845.JPG DSCN3846.JPG DSCN3847.JPG DSCN3841.JPG DSCN3842.JPG DSCN3843.JPG DSCN3844.JPG DSCN3848.JPG DSCN3859.JPG

Maybe the Novelty is the nickel barrel bridge or smooth old style balance wheel ?

. I have not seen this balance wheel on any early Hampdens??
.
.
.
 

Rick Hufnagel

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Nice! Congrats.... Im glad to see that one.

Novelty is a grade, along with "Hampden"
Both are a mix of Gilt and nickel. Check out This post by Greg F. The list in his post has been an amazing help to me.

New York Watch Co. precursors to Hampden.


Anyways... This is neat because I recently observed a "Hampden" grade that was all gilt, instead of mixed, and the numbers matched. It had a Hampden dial and was, in my opinion, finished by Hampden.

Jim, the number of movements NYWCo finished seems to get smaller by the day in my mind. Like the 2,000ish Billings short cock movements that are not Billings.

Here's my latest early Hampden. Not as cool as your Novelty, but I like it.

IMG_20200130_162937229.jpg IMG_20200130_162957742.jpg
 

Frank N

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Perhaps not the earliest Hampden, but for 1894:

17 jewel
Model: 2
Grade: Special Railway, two tone
Adjusted 5 positions
Gold jewel settings
Gold plated Teske Regulator

In 1896 the movement cost was $70, at a time when a tradesman made perhaps $30 a week.


IMG_4822.jpg IMG_4821.jpg
 

Ben S.

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Well, I just got my first Hampden in the mail yesterday. I don’t know if it necessarily fits this thread, and apologize if this is out of order, but it is from 1913 and I don’t see any harm in sharing, so... enjoy!

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KipW

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I only have a couple of early (key wind) Hampdens, the oldest being 85219, a Lafayette. Whether by luck or design, as a percentage...more of my Hampdens are great timekeepers than any other maker I collect. It almost seems as though Hampden spent the effort on function rather than eye candy, unlike some of their competition. (Just sayin'!)

Case 85219- .jpg Dial 85219 .jpg Movement 85219 .jpg s-l1600 (4).jpg s-l1600 (5).jpg
 

Jskirk

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I think I have posted this before. This is my only Hampden at this moment.
An 1884 grade 57 model 3 in a 4oz Dueber coin silver hinged case. I believe about 24000 made.

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Rick Hufnagel

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57180. J.C. Perry
(I've checked the balance, balance cock, and barrel bridge and all serial numbers match)

I've had this a while, and did not post it because of uncertainty, but after looking at the inventory sheets, and examining actual New York J.C. Perry's, I'm very confident the dial is correct and this is a Hampden.

The keywind Perry is still offered in the 1880 S.F. Myers catalog. That's the latest I've seen it advertised.

Keep in mind I've only been keeping track of these a bit under a year, but have never seen a keywind "Perry". Only J.C. Perry with lower serial numbers than 58,000.

The Hampden Blue book shows 1 Keywind "Perry" at 69220. That's it!!!

I think they had a large stock of inventoried movements of this grade when Hampden Watch Co started up.

This movement has some scratches and scattered spots, but check out that awesome damaskeened balance cock! Love it.

IMG_20200331_222120465.jpg IMG_20200331_221955694.jpg
 
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Rick Hufnagel

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These have been posted in the Private label thread, but just for the purposes of this thread I feel like they need to be here as well.

47056.
This is labeled as "Billings" in the new York inventory list compilation. It's not a Billings and has faux jewel settings, like a Woolworth. I also have two other observations from this run, another private label, and an adjusted Woolworth. They all have Hampden dials, and with the movement features and researching the private label(who didn't even start selling railroad related merchandise untill at least 1875). I believe the dial is correct and this is a Hampden.
d2fa1c179bde93142810b9f2d4b175c5 (1).jpg 9b85dbc38ae623d74dcb8ad5160c4380.jpg

Next is a private label J.C. Perry
#57710

This and 57180 i(the last post) are from the last two runs of J.C. Perry movements in the inventory compilation. Both have Hampden dials and are shown in various stages of completion in 1875. This one also has the great damaskeened balance cock.
750d0066bb72444187656d4cfad231e3.jpg 1269de14125cd0a567a70e7334d9b17a.jpg

Ok I think that's everything I didn't have posted here, thanks for checking them out. I'm pretty proud of 57180, and it's probably in a few places here. If you are tired of seeing it, apologies, but it directly fits the thread. Instead of adding links to other threads, I figured it would be better to add the pictures.

Have a good day and stay safe!
 

Rick Hufnagel

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This is 62111, a private label Hayward (or grade 71 depending on semantics)
There are some interesting early features I wanted to note on this one.
IMG_20200322_114121416.jpg

All of the serial numbers match... Except the balance wheel. I would have called it switched right off the bat, but the other example of this p.l. (only a few sns away) has the same style balance.. so who knows.

To explain, many really early Hampdens still have the older "New York Style" balance wheel. Here is the difference, the balance on the left is from this watch, and is consistent with normal Hampden production. The one on the right is what I call a "New York Style" balance and is seen on New York movements and some very early Hampdens. Leftovers im assuming
IMG_20200401_184634936.jpg
Next up is the balance cock. The deep engraved balance cocks are beautiful, and like the heavier balances, I feel they are leftover New York parts. These are also only seen early on with Hampden. Much to my disapointment, these balance cocks require balance hole jewels of a different size than the normal Hampdens, so as soon as I find one this sucker will be up and running.
IMG_20200322_114121416.jpg

Neat part of this one is that the serial number is crossed out and replaced with 62111. The original serial number matches to a run of hollow center pinion Model 2 Studleys (some of the earliest 18s stemwinders). I have one and they do in fact have these engraved balance cocks.
IMG_20200322_131120162.jpg

Next are those great huge jewels. These are more consistent with the New York Watch Co "Chas E. Hayward"(check out Dewey's in post #74) Here is a comparison between this movement, and a later p.l. of the same grade. Another interesting feature seen on very early Hampdens in both Hayward, and 11 jewel Springfield grades.
IMG_20200401_184921981.jpg

Last is the dial. This one is unsigned and I've noted quite a few unsigned early P.L. dials. The interesting part of this one is that it looks like it originally was signed and there is a spot that's kind of hard to see where it was buffed off! The location of where it is buffed is a little high for a Hampden dial, but consistent with where "New York Watch Co" would have been. It's still nice and smooth, and may have been re-fired. Using up old dials left in stock:???: Maybe.
It's hard to see in the photo, I tried to get the best shot possible, but if you look closely you can see the outline of the buff mark in the light.
IMG_20200401_193100252~2.jpg
I had this dial under the microscope looking for remnants of a signature, but there was not a spec of a remnant of paint to be found.


So there it is, a neat early Hampden that still has quite a bit of New York DNA. I find it odd that it has the new style of click, but it is consistent with other early private labels such as Lake Shore just to mention one.

Have a good day! Thanks for giving this one up Tom!
 
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Jim Haney

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Private Label for Mermod & Jaccard, St Louis . Movement marked M&J Co. Railroad , then 2 screws away, Watch.

I believe this is the earliest Hampden seen so far, Serial number 41155.

This is amazing to me because I started out 25 years ago looking for Hampdens under 57,000 which, at that time was reported the starting serial numbers.

This watch has the distinct Hampden DMK pattern and the short cock and the KW click. I just find it interesting that their earliest watches started out as Private Labels.

In an unmarked and I believe original Silveroid case with no other screw marks

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Tom McIntyre

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Jim, I think it is a little artificial to call these their "earliest" watches. The operations had grown out of the New York Watch Co. and I would think the private labels of this period were due to crawling out of a couple of difficult financial periods. New York Watch Co. failed and became the New York Watch Mfg. Co., which failed and became the Hampden Watch Co. Then Dueber came along and made an offer they could not refuse to get the control he needed to follow his ambition to be a sole owner of a fully integrated watch company.

The New York Watch Co. had made private labels and the same people were in charge until it all moved to Canton and Dueber became the absolute monarch.
 

Jim Haney

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I just find it interesting that their earliest watches started out as Private Labels.

Jim, I think it is a little artificial to call these their "earliest" watches. .
Well,
Artificial or not, that is how they appear to me because they were Hampden's 1st (or earliest) watches and they are P/L watches.

Go back in this thread and there is another about 11 number later than this one.

I think most of us understand the history of the New York Watch Co and they used a completely different plate lay out, so would you say that they changed to this DMK and short cock before Hampden moved in?
 
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Rick Hufnagel

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:emoji_trophy: awesome watch!

Hey... Your only a few numbers away from the one in the catalog!

Screenshot_20200412-162120~2.png

I believe these are the beginning of the watches of this grade. Much like 58,000 are the first "Springfield" Grade watches.

These really low serial number M.J. & Co watches are fantastic, because it gives us another angle to work to figure them out. When did M.J. & Co introduce this watch? It's a long shot, but we need some earlier catalogs than the one I have.

Screenshot_20200403-210624~3.png

This is from 1873. According to this, July 1st 1873 is the beginning of M.J. & Co. It's a 4ish year gap between this and the start of Hampden.

There are D.C. Jaccard NYWCo movements, it stands to reason they wouldn't waste any time getting a big client back on the roster when Hampden started up.

Just my thoughts.
 
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Tom McIntyre

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I think what confuses me is the implication that Hampden "moved in." It was just a name change to name that factory after the county it had always been located in. The New York Watch Manufacturing Co. and the Hampden Watch Co. had the same employees and essentially the same management. The Woolworth and Menlo Park have never been all that interesting for me, but they did not seem particularly strange either.
None of the basic operations changed until they moved to Canton. These watches were developed while Cain was in charge in Springfield.

Maybe Dueber had asked him for something that competed more directly with the Waltham and Elgin less expensive lines. Wasn't Elgin making the fenestrated balance cocks at that time for private labels?
 

LloydB

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:emoji_trophy: awesome watch!

Hey... Your only a few numbers away from the one in the catalog!

View attachment 582627
Yes, the catalog cut is a few numbers away,
has the same damascene pattern, same
design on the balance cock, and the later
barrel bridge shape.

It does NOT, however, have the 'new' style
click, that's been discussed here several times.

Was the catalog cut of a transitional movement,
sent to MJ& Co for marketing purposes? If so,
that may indicate just when the click change
was introduced.

There may well be more and lower serial #'s
to come, of this design -- was this Hampden's
shiny new nickel offering, to distinguish theirs
from the previous NYWCo offerings?

Interesting.
 

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