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Lenzkirch 30-Tooth Escape Wheel - Opinions?

Shazbat

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I am a hobbyist working on a Lenzkirch 2-weight Vienna Regulator, S/n 449900 (no Million mark). I disassembled the movement, cleaned and pegged the pivot holes, checked and polished the pivots, replaced the monofilament that was installed, and reassembled with light synthetic oil. I used Clock tuner to set the beat without issue. However, both Clock tuner and I picked up on an interesting ticking sound - tick-tick..tock...tick-tick...tock. The clock is in beat, but with a double tick (minor tick following the major tick.) and will only run for 3 or 4 minutes. Apparently an escapement issue. My first check was on the escape pallets...they look clean and bright with good angles. Finally opened the movement up again this morning to get a better look at the escape wheel.

I think that I may have found the problem...the impulse face appears to be worn. Rather than being straight, the face is slightly curved, and on most teeth there is a small upset just at the bottom of the 'slanted' face that can be felt with a razor blade - a slight 'catch.'

Your opinions are appreciated: Can this wheel be saved with light dressing of the teeth faces with a fine file? Everything else looks good.

Thank you,

Jim 20210730_125946[1].jpg 20210730_130022[1].jpg 20210730_130025[1].jpg 20210730_130318[1].jpg 20210730_130327[1].jpg 20210730_130449[1].jpg
 

bruce linde

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Sometimes that ghost second tech can come from the pendulum rod smacking into one of the crutch forks…
 

Shazbat

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Sometimes that ghost second tech can come from the pendulum rod smacking into one of the crutch forks…
Thanks Bruce,

This movement doesn't have crutch forks, but rather the pendulum hangs from the mount the movement slides into...and the crutch post fits into a slot on the pendulum with wear plates on either side of the pendulum rod. Something else that I should have mentioned is that as the pendulum sets into its normal rhythm, following the initial push, you can see the crutch post vibrate ever so slightly, but in an in-and-out fashion rather than from side -to-side. The vibration seems to coincide with the minor tick. My first inclination was possible interference with the wear plate...but I could not find any issue with when testing with the crutch and pendulum removed from the clock....
 
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bruce linde

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if that's the case, it might be a worn bushing (or two) for the verge or escape wheel, allowing them to move around a bit more than optimal....
 

tracerjack

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400 day movements have an audible tick-tick, tick- tock. One is from the tooth hitting the lock face, the other from the impulse slide. It is considered one of the hallmarks of a healthy 400 day working movement. I’m confused by the “slant face” you posted. Isn’t the straight side of the EW tooth ( left side viewing your photo) interacting with the palllet? The cutout (right side viewing photo) provides clearance for the pallet movement. But, since I’ve never worked on a Vienna, my thoughts are simply to learn. Perhaps there is no connection between Vienna’s and 400 day.
Perhaps I am not understanding, did you mean there is a curve at the tip of the tooth?
 

wow

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I do not understand your explanation of a “catch” in the second paragraph. Is the catch on the pallet or on the teeth of the EW?
 

Shazbat

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I do not understand your explanation of a “catch” in the second paragraph. Is the catch on the pallet or on the teeth of the EW?
The photos of the escape wheel are not very good, sorry, I am using my phone's camera. But if you look at the slanted (slightly rounded) face, just before dropping off to vertical, there is a slight lip that I think is causing the pallet to catch on. I can easily feel this lip with the tip of an exacto blade....

Should the face have the rounded shape? Is the lip a sign of wear?

Looking at David LaBounty's animation of a Villiamy deadbeat (Escapement Animation Videos - About Time - David LaBounty) which appears to be the same as this one, the faces seem to be much straighter than those on my escape wheel.

I am looking for opinions on whether this wheel looks correct, if not, should I consider dressing the tooth faces with a fine file, or should I take it in for professional assistance.

Thanks to all,
 

Shazbat

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if that's the case, it might be a worn bushing (or two) for the verge or escape wheel, allowing them to move around a bit more than optimal....
While I had it open, I again checked for play on the escape wheel pivot, nothing there...there is a little play on the aft verge/crutch pivot...forward pivot seems good....
 

Shazbat

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Here is a screen shot of Clocktuner...you can see the major tick/tocks connected by the red lines....and the minor tick just following the major tick.....as in tick. tick...tock...tick.tick...tock.



Screenshot_20210730-163414_Clock Tuner.jpg
 

Vernon

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Bruce may have your solution (post#4). A video of the escapement running may be helpful.
 

tracerjack

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Difficult to tell for sure in the photo, but this appears to be a broken tooth. Not sure if it has anything to do with your problem. That hitch in the crutch could be it bouncing over the lip you describe. I'll leave it to the experts to say whether you should file it off.
ew.jpg
 

Shazbat

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Thanks Vernon, here is a video of it running...though I could not get a good shot of it...Even on the test stand, it is very hard to see...
 

Attachments

Shazbat

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Difficult to tell for sure in the photo, but this appears to be a broken tooth. Not sure if it has anything to do with your problem. That hitch in the crutch could be it bouncing over the lip you describe. I'll leave it to the experts to say whether you should file it off.
View attachment 665350
Thank you, I had not noticed that. I will break it down again tomorrow and make a clay impression to check all of the teeth against each other....
 

Dick Feldman

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If the extra noise occurs with every cycle of the escapement, it likely is not a tooth problem.
If it can be narrowed down to one tooth or several teeth, it can be a tooth problem.
The most common reason for a bent tooth is a novice adjusting something.
Very seldom do escape wheels get out of whack unless they have been tampered with.
My thoughts are that you may have loose pivot holes on the escape wheel arbor as well as the verge pivots. Those must be tight and not “just good enough”. If the verge and the escape wheels are wobbling around the error will show up in the locks and drops. Loose pivots will also make the locks/drops inconsistent because the center distance changes at the mercy of the wobbling arbors.
Being able to hear what an escapement is doing is a great help but mis diagnosing can cause a lot of problems in the movement.
I would suggest you;
  1. Make sure all of the pivot holes are tight in the movement and then
  2. While powering the train with your finger, check locks and drops and adjust accordingly if needed.
You said: “…...and will only run for 3 or 4 minutes. Apparently an escapement issue.”
You are all going to get tired of hearing this from me but many times the escapement is blamed for poor operation of a movement when the escapement is only showing the results of a fault elsewhere. Running for 3-4 minutes is the symptom of low power to the escapement, not of bent teeth, etc. Low power in a movement that has run for some 100 years.
If you file escape wheel teeth, etc. you may cause a second reason the clock will not run. Some of that may not be reversible. Your trial and error could cost you a new escape wheel.
JMHO
Dick
 

Willie X

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I would send that wheel out, to a pro. Don't start filling anything. Willie X
 

Shazbat

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Thanks all, I guess I have what I asked for...as a hobbyist, I dis not want to screw up a nice old clock. I will check in with professional clock service to have the pivots and escape wheel looked at.

I will let you know what I hear!

Thank you again,
 

shutterbug

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Although that one tooth does look like a problem, it's probably not stopping the clock. If it is, the clock will always stop in the same place on the escape wheel. Your clock is still out of beat, and that may contribute to it stopping. I think your extra tick is coming from the crutch. You can put a little oil on that crutch pin, and that may eliminate it. Also put just a tiny bit of oil on the faces of the pallets, so it can transfer to the escape wheel teeth. That may get you running better and longer. Don't oil any other wheel teeth though ;)
 

Dick Feldman

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Clean, Oil and/or Adjust
Clean, Oil and/or Adjust
:???::???::???:
It is obvious this movement has a mechanical problem and that problem is way beyond either Clean, Oil and/or adjust to make it a viable and reliable long term clock movement.
The OP should be commended in realizing the situation is beyond his capabilities and that he is planning to take it to a qualified repair person. .
That is what I think,
D
 

Vernon

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Here you are:
 

Dick Feldman

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Thank you, Vernon. It works now.

The clock is out of beat enough to cause it to stop. You must fix that first before the escapement issue can be properly addressed.
A clock with a bad escape wheel is bound to be out of beat. Setting the beat is treating a symptom instead of the disease.
Dick
 

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