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Learning how to purchase and install bushings

Vint

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I am at the point where I need to learn the art of acquiring and installing bushings. I have a small drill press and have have looked at Utube until I’m blue in the face. I have an old regula 25 movement plate that I thought I’d start practicing on but I wanted to first seek any words of wisdom from the NAWCC membership.
it would benefit me greatly if anyone having suggestions, recommendations or advice would like to offer.
Thank you.
 

bruce linde

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murphyfields

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I am in the same boat...learning from searching this board (the people here are wonderful), watching youtube (some good stuff there, some bad, so be careful), and looking at online shops. Basically, give it a try, make some mistakes, and ask how to fix them.
 

wow

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Starting with a regula 25, if you want proper height bushings, will require buying bushings with a 1.4 height. The plates are thin. Most clocks you will be working on have 1.9 mm plates (close to). You may want to buy 1.9 bushings so you can use them in the future. You can use 1.9’s and learn how to grind them down to fit thin plates. Are you planning to use KMW reamers, broaches and files, or what? How do you plan to mount the plate on the drill press? What support will be directly beneath the hole being bushed?
 

Vint

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Thank you Murph and Bruce for the pep talk.....gives me confidence for sure.
WOW....I like candor and I feel challenged by your questions, so from what I’ve read KMW seems to be a good choice. I have a 6” vise for my drill press but not sure best approach to hold movement plate in place. Any recommendations? I was planning on using a 3” x 3” x 2” block of aluminum to use as support under bushing.
 

Vint

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JimmyOz

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I have a 6” vise for my drill press but not sure best approach to hold movement plate in place. Any recommendations?
You need to hold the plate DOWN, the regula plates are thin and using a vice may bow the plate.
I wonder if it’s advantageous to use a drill press versus hand application?
Given the run-out on a drill press you would need to make the hole smaller than the bush and then ream-broach the hole by hand, try it both ways, drill press and also totally by hand, this is how you learn. If the plate has the posts still on it use them as a guide to keep your reamer 90 decrees to the plate.

CIMG0861.jpg CIMG0862.jpg
 

Vint

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You need to hold the plate DOWN, the regula plates are thin and using a vice may bow the plate.

Given the run-out on a drill press you would need to make the hole smaller than the bush and then ream-broach the hole by hand, try it both ways, drill press and also totally by hand, this is how you learn. If the plate has the posts still on it use them as a guide to keep your reamer 90 decrees to the plate.

View attachment 624086 View attachment 624087
The pic
You need to hold the plate DOWN, the regula plates are thin and using a vice may bow the plate.

Given the run-out on a drill press you would need to make the hole smaller than the bush and then ream-broach the hole by hand, try it both ways, drill press and also totally by hand, this is how you learn. If the plate has the posts still on it use them as a guide to keep your reamer 90 decrees to the plate.

View attachment 624086 View attachment 624087
You need to hold the plate DOWN, the regula plates are thin and using a vice may bow the plate.

Given the run-out on a drill press you would need to make the hole smaller than the bush and then ream-broach the hole by hand, try it both ways, drill press and also totally by hand, this is how you learn. If the plate has the posts still on it use them as a guide to keep your reamer 90 decrees to the plate.

View attachment 624086 View attachment 624087
 

kinsler33

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The drill press works fine. You can chuck your reamer directly in the drill press chuck.

But try to make sure that you've preserved the original center of the pivot hole as closely as you can. For the most part this isn't a big deal, for clocks are generally made to accept manufacturing inaccuracies. However, there's one Chinese clock that uses a three-prong gathering pallet which you either (a) shouldn't bush at all if the clock is striking properly or (2) take great care to preserve the original center, or the gathering pallet won't pull up the rack and the stop mechanism won't work.

I just learned this.

Mark Kinsler
 

shutterbug

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Keeping the original center is most important, and it can't be done by hand holding the plate unless the hole has been accurately filed so that the wear is compensated for on the opposite side. The best method is to establish original center, clamp the plate securely to the table and then very slowly bring the reamer into the hole so the plate isn't forced to move because of taking too big of bite. Do some practice on a junker movement first.
 

Brujan

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Hi all,. I am new to this forum and to clock thinking. I am a farmer and a good mechanic. I am use to working on large and quite complicated machinery. 6 weeks ago I bought an old click on eBay and reading on this forum l cleaned it fixed it and it runs good. I bought 2 more and have spent a lot of my wife's money on eBay for clock stuff. This a lot of fun!
I have been corrected on another thread about how not to use a hole closing punch and to install bushings. I am so new to this that 7 weeks ago l had not bought my first clock yet. It's easy for me to understand the physics of these clocks but l have no knowledge of technics with clocks yet but that's the fun of it all to me. I am wondering about installing bushings and not using drills and lathes. Can l learn to do this with out electricity? I am on my 3rd clock now it is 180 years old. I have to learn to do bushings now so l won't be ostracized any more on the other thread for using a hole closing punch. I have some clock tools over 100 years old,l think. It's more fun to use an old tool on an old clock then some new shinny tool. Can anyone put a bushing into a plate using only hand held tools and no electricity? I would like to learn that instead of spending big money on late day machinery that you plug in. I will follow this thread and see if we learn bushings for newbies.
Burce
 

Vint

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Keeping the original center is most important, and it can't be done by hand holding the plate unless the hole has been accurately filed so that the wear is compensated for on the opposite side. The best method is to establish original center, clamp the plate securely to the table and then very slowly bring the reamer into the hole so the plate isn't forced to move because of taking too big of bite. Do some practice on a junker movement first.
Thank this the kind of info I was hoping to get. I was looking at Timesavers chart on buying bushings.....whew! Confusing but I believe I got it. The chart makes reference to reamers required using Roman numerals for particular bushings. What’s this all about?
 

shutterbug

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At the top of the forum there are "sticky" (which means unmovable) threads with lots of hints and helps. One of them is on bushing by hand. It includes the tools needed as well as the techniques to be successful. Do some searching there, and if your specific questions are not answered, come back with them here. Clocks are addictive. So is spending your wife's money :D
 

Vint

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At the top of the forum there are "sticky" (which means unmovable) threads with lots of hints and helps. One of them is on bushing by hand. It includes the tools needed as well as the techniques to be successful. Do some searching there, and if your specific questions are not answered, come back with them here. Clocks are addictive. So is spending your wife's money :D
Thanks. I’m still trying to learn how to navigate this website. I do appreciate your input.
 

Brujan

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Thanks. I’m still trying to learn how to navigate this website. I do appreciate your input.
Like Vince, I too am learning how to navigate this site. Is there a sticky that explains searching? I hate to ask non clock questions but I am having better luck finding subjects within this forum by using Google and jumping back in from there. I clearly didn't understand the search engine in this site. I want to learn how to attach a feather to a pendulum rod and l searched "feather" and was told "sorry no results found"..... How do you search all forums? I am sure feather can be found. I belong to 2 agricultural machinery forums and they seem to work differently. I suppose they were designed for farmers to understand.
Sorry for interrupting good clock discussion and l will try to stay on topic now. Bruce
 

wow

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Our new version is great but the search feature is still being set up, I believe. Google may be your best bet until they get all the kinks out.
 

murphyfields

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Something I discovered the hard way... when you hit the search button (looks like a message bubble with a magnifying glass) you get this

1606755181082.png

and the default search is "This thread." Click there and you get

1606755237358.png

and can choose where you want to search.
 

Vint

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Thank you as this certainly helps me. I have looked at the Hints How to and found interesting info. For the purpose of practicing I’d like to buy some old movement plates etc. I’ve been on eBay but it’s a real pain trying to buy clock parts via auction. Can you point me in a direction where I can make these purchases? Thanks again gentlemen.
 

Vint

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Keeping the original center is most important, and it can't be done by hand holding the plate unless the hole has been accurately filed so that the wear is compensated for on the opposite side. The best method is to establish original center, clamp the plate securely to the table and then very slowly bring the reamer into the hole so the plate isn't forced to move because of taking too big of bite. Do some practice on a junker movement first.
Makes a lot of sense and I thank you. I did find the article “Bushing Using Hand Tools” written by Bangster on Dec 13,2011 and it is excellent and gives me a great night as to what is involved.
 

shutterbug

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Ebay is probably your best bet for used movements, but most repair shops have a 'bone pile' of dead movements they could supply you with. There may be a fee for parts.
 

Vint

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I’ve been meaning to go see my new friend Paul who is the clockmaster at the SD vintage antique store ( he got me interested in joining the NAWCC). I’ll check with him regarding bone pile. Thanks again Shutterbug as you’ve been most helpful to me.
 

murphyfields

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Thank you as this certainly helps me. I have looked at the Hints How to and found interesting info. For the purpose of practicing I’d like to buy some old movement plates etc. I’ve been on eBay but it’s a real pain trying to buy clock parts via auction. Can you point me in a direction where I can make these purchases? Thanks again gentlemen.
Here are some things I have tried. First, my wife bought a $25 grandfather clock that almost worked. After coming to this site, I bought a new movement for her clock (she was happy that it worked) and I have something to work with. Then I bought several movements on ebay. look for something like "clock movement lot" then sort by price plus shipping. I originally won an auction for 2 Hermle movements for $10 plus $14 shipping. The seller had a few more movements, one he thought was new old stock that he wanted $15 for. I could tell from the pics and all my reading here that it was an old used movement. So he added 2 more Hermles for another $10 in the same shipment. I loved this, because to that point all my clocks had hermle movements. This board also helped because I knew that two of the movements were actually Hermles even though they had different stamps on them.

I have also picked up some old barely working clocks on facebook marketplace and nextdoor (a neighborhood social network) for cheap.

After my experiences on this board, I am sure there are people here that will send you an old movement or two for the cost of shipping or a little more, or you can network in NAWCC (national or local chapter) and find some wonderful people that can help out.
 

Vint

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This is good to hear and gives me a little hope. I might just buy the movement I see on ebay opposed to bidding,lol!
Also nice to hear your story so to speak as to becoming interested in clocks. Thanks Murphy
 

RJSoftware

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an old list for timesavers.. might still be good numbers.

16.50 15216 broaches 6 -sizes 46 to 72
11.25 13403 reamer for American/KWM III
10.25 18303 reamer handle for American/KWM
04.50 27009 bushing (size 38)
04.50 27012 bushing (size 41)
04.50 27014 bushing (size 43)
04.00 23210 smoothing broach (stub size 44)
03.25 23213 smoothing broach (stub size 54)
-----
58.75



13408 is some kind of assembly post. I'm sure a typo.

Thought myself talented turning a tiny watch staff. Then it fell on the ground next to a small cockroach leg. Comparing the craftsmanship of the two was very humbling.
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Aug 12, 2005
You are right about the typo. I have corrected it in my previous memo.
Stubs is the name of an English system measuring steel wires. For some reason it was adopted to designate the sizes of cutting and smoothing broaches made in England. It is like the sizes of numbered drills and the numbers are within a thousanth in most cases.The smaller the drill or broach the higher the number. The useful sizes for pivots go from number 44 for pivots 2 mm. and below to 65 for 1 mm. and below.
Too bad everything is not measured in metrics so we could compare all of the broaching sets.

Charlie Davis, La Verne, CA
http://www.JapaneseClockLogos.com
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RJSoftware
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Aug 13, 2005
I guess my list is done then.

Thanks again!
RJ

Thought myself talented turning a tiny watch staff. Then it fell on the ground next to a small cockroach leg. Comparing the craftsmanship of the two was very humbling.
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Jerry Kieffer
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Aug 13, 2005
To All
This will be my last post on this subject. (Relief to you and me) I am disappointed in the response to this subject by the experienced people who have responded considering we are advising beginners. None of those advocating hand reaming have stressed the importance of proper bushing placement or proper friction fitting of the bushing so it will not come out. (Unless I missed it) None of you have explained a procedure that a begginer can use other than to say it can be done by practice developing skill. When I was a begginer this sort of thing drove me crazy because I had no idea how or where to start. (One of the reasons for this post)

For beginners and those wishing to only do a few bushings one time on a budget I would suggest the following. First the pivot needs to be located in its original position to transmit proper power to the train. If not the teeth will not properly mesh and create friction that will hinder the clocks operation. Short pendulum stroke etc. Another words you can bush and end up with the same problems you had before you started. Reamers will wander all over the place if you are not very very careful. Next if the bushing reamer is not held straight while reaming you will end up with an enlarged hole and reduced friction fit of the bushing. If the bushing comes out on a inexpensive works the clock may just stop with out damage. (Hopefully) On the otherhand if a bushing comes out close to a mainspring on an expensive works it may cause some very expensive damage. To prevent these problems I would suggest going to a Hardware store and purchasing a long 1/4" piece of key stock. I think it comes in 4" long pieces. If your going to use the KWM 2.7 mm reamer also purchase a number 36 drill bit.(Almost identical size to the reamer)
Both items are generally available in the larger Hardware stores. Next drill a hole in the middle of the key stock with the number 36 drill. This needs to be drilled straight and square and should be done on a accurate drill press. I am sure you can find someone who has a drill press if you don`t have one. Next clamp both ends of the key stock over the clock plate with the hole centered as close as possible to the original pivot positition. This will allow you to run the reamer through the keystock hole and will assure a straight properly positioned hole without practice and skill. The only problem is the keystock hole will become slightly enlarged after several holes and you will need to drill a new guide hole. You may want to drill several in the keystock to start with. Both items together should be under $5.00.

Jerry Kieffer

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David Robertson
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Aug 13, 2005
Jerry wrote

This will be my last post on this subject. (Relief to you and me) I am disappointed in the response to this subject by the experienced people who have responded considering we are advising beginners.
Jerry.. thanks for (finally) taking the thread this direction. It is so easy to get consumed in answering the question that WAS asked rather than the question that SHOULD have been asked.

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David Robertson - Kingsland, TX
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Aug 13, 2005
Jerry and David.
I appreciate your comments and want to validate them in general. But if a person whows a list of specific idems in a catalog that he plans on buying and you feel he has made an error I think you are obligated to deal with that situation.
The question was what did a person with limited budget need to install a bushing.
Buying items measured in millimeters. inches and Stubs is confusing to us all, let alone a beginner who has difficulty with the terms reamer and broach.
Certainly we need to help with how those tools and supplies are used but to imply that they are not adequate to do the job is a disservice.

Charlie Davis, La Verne, CA
http://www.JapaneseClockLogos.com
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RJSoftware
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Aug 13, 2005
Jerry;

How about if I got a drill press (seen some cheap ones on ebay) a centering tool and the reamer.

I should be able to find the center with centering tool of pivot hole. Even one that has been oblongated.

Then swap out bits and use the reamer.

Makes sense to me!

RJ

Thought myself talented turning a tiny watch staff. Then it fell on the ground next to a small cockroach leg. Comparing the craftsmanship of the two was very humbling.
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RJSoftware
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Aug 13, 2005
The objective of my question was cheap and good enough.

But practicle sort fits in there too!

I'm not a total cheapo! But I started out with totally wrong conceptions.

Now I have much much better ideal whats going on.

I would like to avoid the reamer floating. So I might like to spend extra bux on drill press.

But there's that holding tool too. It has shaft for regular drill and clamps to plate assuring that hole is square to plate.

But on the other hand I might need a drill press for other usefull things.

I see one on ebay for about $50. But it's no name brand type import jobby.

Not sure I trust that.

Any ideals apreciated.
RJ

Thought myself talented turning a tiny watch staff. Then it fell on the ground next to a small cockroach leg. Comparing the craftsmanship of the two was very humbling.
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Aug 13, 2005
Don't expect to use a drill press to ream the hole for a bushing unless you properly prepare the hole by compensating for the wear. The center of the existing hole must be the center of the reamed hole. You can not change it unless you have the milling machine that Jerry recommends. Read his messages carefully because the proof of bushings is in the positioning of the reamed hole and the size of the reamed hole. Wrong place and you are in trouble. Hole too big and you are in trouble.
A drill press is going to make the holes too big and who knows where they will be.

Charlie Davis, La Verne, CA
http://www.JapaneseClockLogos.com
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RJSoftware
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Aug 13, 2005
Is that because they wobble or something? You mean they are not as accurate as hand done?

I try to imagine what you mean. This might need to be a slower process? Maybe a press tears at the brass to quick?

I thought maybe I could put the reamer bit in the drill press.

Good to know.

RJ

Thought myself talented turning a tiny watch staff. Then it fell on the ground next to a small cockroach leg. Comparing the craftsmanship of the two was very humbling.
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Aug 13, 2005
Yes, a drill press often has slop in the bearings and it will drill where the drill takes it. That is why I emphasized preparing the hole by enlarging it to center over the original center.This is most crucial in maintaining the original position.
Unless the drill press is turned by hand it will cut long after it breaks through to the paralell sides of the reamer and make a hole larger than it is designed to make. Then the bushing will fall out and cause damage to the rest of the clock.
I earlier suggested that you make a simple gauge with the various sizes of bushings that you have. Just take a strip of brass or aluminum about the thickness of a clock plate and drill a string of small holes about the size of a pivot. Then pretend (and actually) rebush those holes with a graduated set of bushings. Mark the sizes and you can use that to check a pivot in to see what size of bushing needed. It will give you practice, cost you very little and when you do your first bushing it will be a piece of cake.

Charlie Davis, La Verne, CA
http://www.JapaneseClockLogos.com
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murphyfields

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The drill press works fine. You can chuck your reamer directly in the drill press chuck.

But try to make sure that you've preserved the original center of the pivot hole as closely as you can. For the most part this isn't a big deal, for clocks are generally made to accept manufacturing inaccuracies. However, there's one Chinese clock that uses a three-prong gathering pallet which you either (a) shouldn't bush at all if the clock is striking properly or (2) take great care to preserve the original center, or the gathering pallet won't pull up the rack and the stop mechanism won't work.

I just learned this.

Mark Kinsler
This sounds like a great teachable moment. I am certain that at some point I am going to put in a bushing with a misplaced center. So did you fix the problem? If so, how? In my poor newbie brain I was wondering if, in some cases, it might be possible to file out a pivot hole that was in the wrong location. I think this would only work if I had to file in the direction of normal wear. Is this totally incorrect?
 

shutterbug

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File in the opposite direction. You want to mirror the wear, but in the opposite direction from it.
 

murphyfields

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File in the opposite direction. You want to mirror the wear, but in the opposite direction from it.
I think my question is (and I am a newbie, so even my questions can be wrong), assuming I put in a new bushing, and put it in the wrong location, and assuming more that I overcompensated for the original wear (for the sake of argument, assume the original wear was to the left of the original pivot, and somehow I overcompensated and the pivot in my new bushing is too far to the right). Would it work to just file the new pivot hole somewhat to the left? It will no longer be round, but does that matter if most of the force and wear will be to the left anyway, and there should be no reason during normal operation for the arbor to be shifted to the right side. I am not asking if it is the RIGHT thing to do...I just want to know if there is anything other than aesthetics and pride wrong with this approach...will there be a mechanical issue?
 

RJSoftware

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This editor has to be the hardest one to write in yet
 

Vernon

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Hey Vint.
Since you mentioned bushing a cuckoo clock, bushings on these are generally barrel shaped so that binding doesn't occur due to the thinness of the plates which can cause them to flex. To do this, simply chamfer the bush on both sides lightly.
 

bruce linde

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Ebay is probably your best bet for used movements, but most repair shops have a 'bone pile' of dead movements they could supply you with. There may be a fee for parts.
david LaBounty at abouttime-clockmaking has a warehouse full... you might reach out to him.
 

shutterbug

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I think my question is (and I am a newbie, so even my questions can be wrong), assuming I put in a new bushing, and put it in the wrong location, and assuming more that I overcompensated for the original wear (for the sake of argument, assume the original wear was to the left of the original pivot, and somehow I overcompensated and the pivot in my new bushing is too far to the right). Would it work to just file the new pivot hole somewhat to the left? It will no longer be round, but does that matter if most of the force and wear will be to the left anyway, and there should be no reason during normal operation for the arbor to be shifted to the right side. I am not asking if it is the RIGHT thing to do...I just want to know if there is anything other than aesthetics and pride wrong with this approach...will there be a mechanical issue?
I wouldn't do anything until you test it out. Change it if it causes problems, but you might luck out if it's only one. But the best approach to fixing it would be to insert a bushing with the hole offset. A little more difficult, but the result will be strong.
 

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