Le Brun, Pocket Watch movement.

Discussion in 'European & Other Pocket Watches' started by Omexa, Feb 13, 2017.

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  1. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

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    #1 Omexa, Feb 13, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 14, 2017
    Hi, has anyone got an idea of what type of escapement this movement has? It has a similar Compensation Curb to a J R Arnold movement Serial Number 3639 on the David Penney site. I did not pay much for it. It runs. I think that Le Brun was a Huguenot from Belgium or France. Photos compliments of midwestestate. Regards Ray
     

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  2. Lychnobius

    Lychnobius Registered User

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    Something about the way the train-wheel pivots are crowded together under the balance makes me think this may turn out to be a duplex; so does the wide-rimmed brass balance, although this is also found on cylinders. Admittedly there are things in the back-plate which looks a little like the ends of banking-pins, but their position does not seem to relate to any of the visible pivots. I like the early form of maintaining-power on the fusee, with a blued-steel click. Altogether an interesting movement, whatever its specification turns out to be.

    Oliver Mundy.
     
  3. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

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    #3 Omexa, Feb 14, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 14, 2017
    Hi Oliver, I am inclined to agree with you that the movement is a Cylinder or a Duplex. My Parkinson and Frodsham Cylinder movement has a similar Jewel layout to the Le Brun and also has a 4 Spoke Balance Wheel. If a photo of the side of the movement where the escapement was shown, I probably would not have got it cheap. What parts do you think are missing in the 2 outlined in Blue? What do you think the the parts outlined in Red do? I can't find much about this maker? Regards Ray
     

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  4. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Ray,

    The ones in the red line look like the ends of three steady pins and a screw; if it is a lever they could be part of a banking block, if not, then I'm stumped. In the blue line there was obviously a screw head in the largest of the lower group of three with two steady pin holes, and three steady pin holes and a screw hole in the upper group, possibly something to do with the balance brake?

    I'm guessing that it's an English cylinder.

    We'll just have to be patient until it lands in your mail box.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  5. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

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    Well it is getting closer, I am itching to see what sort of escapement it has? "Your item departed a transfer airport in DUBAI, UNITED ARAB EMIRATES on February 19, 2017 at 9:05 am. The item is currently in transit to the destination." Regards Ray
     
  6. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

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    Well I am like a little Kid at Xmas waiting to open the presents. The Le Brun movement has finally arrived at the Post Office. I can't go there until the Groceries are delivered. The choice is go to the Post Office or not eat. This movement has been getting to me and I have been dreaming about it. See what happens when you start to collect early Pocket Watches and movements; you become obsessed. Collecting is definitely a type of addiction. Be careful John in Sweden! Regards Ray
     
  7. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

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    Hi I got it and it is a Table Roller escapement. Regards Ray 1.jpg 2.jpg 2a.PNG 3.jpg 4.jpg 5.jpg 6.jpg 7.jpg 8.jpg 9.jpg
     
  8. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Ray,

    Any clue as to what those extra holes were for? Nothing's apparent in the pictures.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  9. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

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    #9 Omexa, Mar 3, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2017
    Hi Graham,
    I will have a look. What about the Hole in the Balance Cock? It is very early for a Table Roller? I forgot to mention, we have a Cyclone going past (I Hope) in the next few days; sometimes the Power goes off so I got a new lantern Battery yesterday. Regards Ray 1.jpg 2.jpg
     
  10. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

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    Hi Graham, I think that you are right.
    Regards Ray
     
  11. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

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    Well how about a Date for this Early Table Roller? Regards Ray
     
  12. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Ray,

    Regarding dates, the engraving on the top plate looks as though it's been done by machine or a pantograph, (same thing?), but I don't know when these came into general use. It implies a machine-made movement, which I think began to be produced around the 1850s, but I may be wildly out with this. On the other hand, that does seem rather late for a compensation curb. Are there any marks under the dial?

    I think that hole in the cock table is for a missing steady pin, because there's one still there diametrically opposite it.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  13. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

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    #13 Omexa, Mar 3, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2017
    Hi Graham, I had to take the Dial off anyway because when the Gold Case was ripped off the Hinge went with it. Nothing on the Pillar Plate; the Dial missing one Dial Foot has "Pat" on it maybe some clue. I have taken a photo of the Engraving so that you can have a better look.
    It is Flush with the bottom of the Balance Cock. I think that the movement is a lot earlier than the 1850's. 2b.jpg 3b.jpg 4b.jpg Maybe it can be dated form the style of the Balance Cock on the Parkinson and Frodsham? 3h.jpg Regards Ray
     
  14. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Ray,

    You could easily be right about the date, I'm really not sure. I suspect that the dial has been replaced, judging by the two empty holes in the brass edge.

    The engraving of the signature and the serial number both look too regular for hand work, but the "London" probably is by hand.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  15. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

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    Hi, I finally found a reference to this Maker: Pendule de l'horloge astronomique à gaine, fabriquée vers 1850 par Joseph Pascal Lebrun (1807 - 1883) à Luxembourg. Photos and information From Wikimedia Commons, the free media repository. It may be him and later he moved to England? Lebrun_Joseph,_astronomical_longcase_clock,_about_1850_(2).jpg Lebrun_Joseph,_astronomical_longcase_clock,_about_1850_(1).jpg Regards Ray
     
  16. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Ray,

    It's just occurred to me that those empty holes on the edge of the top plate are similar to the mounting holes for the detent foot on a chronometer escapement. What shape are the escape wheel teeth? I know this seems unlikely, but could it possibly have been converted from a chronometer?

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  17. Lychnobius

    Lychnobius Registered User

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    I take Graham's point about the style of the backplate lettering, but the broad cock-table, the wide-rimmed balance and the dial with its residual minute track all suggest the 1820s to me. Perhaps this Le Brun converted and signed a thirty-odd-year-old movement which had previously been uninscribed. That potence between the plates near the release-catch looks to me like evidence of some kind of modification.

    Ray, how often have you seen five turns of fusee-chain on the barrel? I for one never have. I wish I had a spare chain like that; in fact I wish I had twenty such chains.

    Oliver Mundy.
     
  18. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

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    #18 Omexa, Mar 24, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2017
    Hi Oliver your point first,
    now you come to think of it neither have I. Now to Graham,
    The Escape Wheel does look like a Chronometer Escape Wheel. I wonder why it was converted? Maybe the Chronometer was a bit delicate and did not like rough weather. The next thing is was this movement in a Deck Watch? My Mercer Chronometer has 5 turns of Fusee Chain on the Barrel. Regards Ray 1.jpg 2.jpg 3.jpg 4.jpg 5.jpg 6.jpg
     
  19. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Ray,

    That is interesting. I wonder why somebody would go to the trouble of converting a detent escapement to a lever? I can only think that since pocket chronometers don't take kindly to too much physical exercise and tend to "set" if they're not treated gently, it was converted to a lever. Pocket chronometers weren't necessarily all deck watches, some were just for people with enough money to afford them. If it was converted, it may have been fitted with a new balance cock, although by no means all of these were free-sprung with a helical spring.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  20. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

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    Hi Graham,
    Trust me to find something unusual. Regards Ray
     
  21. Lychnobius

    Lychnobius Registered User

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    The Joseph Johnson chronometer presented to Commodore Perry (U.S. Navy) in 1816 is stated in the NAWCC catalogue of its Johnson holdings to have a lever escapement; if this is correct it must surely be a subsequent conversion, although it is hard to imagine how anyone would dare to treat such a historic item in this way.

    Oliver Mundy.
     
  22. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

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    #22 Omexa, Mar 26, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2017
    Hi Oliver, I would love to see it how do I find it?
    I found it but it does not show the side images of the movement. Regards Ray
     
  23. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

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    From, Dr Jon,
    I wonder if this was the reason that this movement was converted? Regards Ray
     
  24. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

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    Hi, I have just been watching the series "Lovejoy" about a dodgy Antique Dealer. Mentioned in the series was that Scrap Dealers put "Bullion before Beauty" and I thought that it fit in with Pocket Watch Cases.
    Regards Ray
     
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