Lathe hunting

[Rob P.]

I'm on the hunt for a lathe because the Southbend Heavy 10 I've been using is way too big for most watch stuff. Plus the runout is more than is acceptable when working ultra small. But I LIKE the fact that there isn't anything I can throw at it that it can't hog it's way through like butter. For heavy work this thing's a beast that can't be beaten yet for fine work it leaves a bit to be desired.

So, I'm looking and looking and looking and I'm now in a dilemma.

Do I get a watchmakers/jewelers lathe or a micro lathe like a Unimat?

I like the Unimat because I'm used to a cross-slide setup. Plus, the Unimat can be converted to a simplistic micro-mill. Which would be great for precision drilling and milling flats and (maybe) gear teeth.

But...

A watchmakers lathe seems to offer more versatility and flexibility due to the more open design. I would also suspect that the tolerances are tighter. The fact that I'd have to learn to use a graver is a bit intimidating. However, I can get a cross-slide (bulky looking) but there's no milling capability.

My mission for the lathe is to mostly do repairs on clocks and watches. I would need to be able to manufacture small parts but would also like to be able to reconfigure existing parts as needed to fabricate custom stuff.

So, I'm left wondering, which do you think is a better fit for my needs?

 

[Neuron]

De Carle's The Watchmaker's and Model Engineer's Lathe has a great deal of information to help you decide. The recent edition covers most of the newer lathes in addition to the older ones. Your Southbend is a nice machine, but not for watchwork. I've got a Chinese "Central Machinery" 9"x20" close to the same size as yours and can use it to make some parts for clock repairs (like posts and barrel sleeves), but as you note it is too big for the smaller stuff.


If you want a lathe built like a much smaller version of your Southbend, De Carle shows quite a few of them. Unimat (now Emco), Cowells, Hobbymat, and Grizzly are in what you call the "minilathe" class. Harbor Freight has a cheap one as well. The nice thing about these is that they work exactly the same way as their big brothers, though on a smaller scale, so you should be able to transfer your skills over to their use. They have built-in cross slides with feed screws, so you can cut threads, tapers, etc., without having to buy extra attachments. Some, like the Emco, allow you to use 8mm WW collets as well as their standard headstocks. This is an important ability if you plan on doing precise work.

The next step down (in size) are the microlathes (like the Sherline and Taig) and the "watchmaker" lathes (like Boley, Bergeon, Levin, etc.). Many of these are no longer made, but can be found used. The Sherline/Taig lathes come with jawed headstocks and cross slides, but can be fitted to accept 8mm collets and tool rests (to allow the use of handheld gravers). Sherline also makes screw-cutting attachments and they have a fine micro-milling machine, Folks who have used them have found them to be capable of the finest watch work. Of all the modern micro-class lathes, the Sherline probably offers the most versatility at the least cost. I probably would have gone with Sherline if I didn't already have two Levin watchmaker lathes and accessories like a cross-slide and milling attachment (purchased over time at very low cost compared to the new prices). The nice thing about Sherline is that they are in production and you can buy a complete setup for a fraction of the cost of the other machines.

A major expense is going to be the collets, and a complete set will cost nearly as much as the lathe.

Hope this helps.

 

[Firegriff]

If I had it to do all over again I would get a Shereline set up for watch work. I have a nice Boley but the cost in the long run is 3 times the cost of the Shereline.

 

[caddwg]

Rob:
I have 4 lathes and mainly use my Taig for most jobs. I do not routinely repair clocks or watches anymore. I'm more interested in building mechanical clocks. I use the Taig lathe and mill 95% of the time. I have a cheapie Harbor Freight 7x10 that I can use to create threads, since the Taig doesn't have that ability. I have two watchmaker's lathes which I very seldom use, but they would be capable of doing many jobs. I would consider them a must for many watch making jobs where very small precision work is required. I certainly have occasion at times to turn something larger, like a clock dial (9" or 10") and would love to have an even larger machine. My original Boley watchmaker's lathe was acquired back in the 1960's to do watch work and worked quite well. I also have a Peerless lathe and I have no real preference between watchmaker's lathes. Regards: Larry

P.S.: It should be noted that "Sherline" has many accessories available (some of which I own for my Taig). I've never owned there lathe, but have been very satisfied with the accessories I've purchased. Sherline is a little pricey compared to the Taig, but sells lots of needed accessories, which you must well know, being a lathe owner, that the major cost is in the accessories rather than the basic machine.

https://onedrive.live.com/?cid=397301AF76054781&id=397301AF76054781!728

 

[Max Phillips]

If not for your mention of wanting to work on clocks, I'd recommend something like a Sherline unless like me you're simply drawn to traditional methods and machinery. Something like a small, screw cutting Lorch would be ideal but of course quite expensive if you found one well tooled up. I'm not sure what the limitations on clock work might be with a Sherline though... you'd want to take a look at what your needs would be, versus the maximum between centers distance and the maximum swing over the bed, as well as swing over the saddle. The Taigs are a bit bigger so probably worth looking into. They don't seem to offer nearly as much in the way of accessories as Sherline, so keep that in mind.

 

[Jerry Kieffer]

I'm on the hunt for a lathe because the Southbend Heavy 10 I've been using is way too big for most watch stuff. Plus the runout is more than is acceptable when working ultra small. But I LIKE the fact that there isn't anything I can throw at it that it can't hog it's way through like butter. For heavy work this thing's a beast that can't be beaten yet for fine work it leaves a bit to be desired.

So, I'm looking and looking and looking and I'm now in a dilemma.

Do I get a watchmakers/jewelers lathe or a micro lathe like a Unimat?

I like the Unimat because I'm used to a cross-slide setup. Plus, the Unimat can be converted to a simplistic micro-mill. Which would be great for precision drilling and milling flats and (maybe) gear teeth.

But...

A watchmakers lathe seems to offer more versatility and flexibility due to the more open design. I would also suspect that the tolerances are tighter. The fact that I'd have to learn to use a graver is a bit intimidating. However, I can get a cross-slide (bulky looking) but there's no milling capability.

My mission for the lathe is to mostly do repairs on clocks and watches. I would need to be able to manufacture small parts but would also like to be able to reconfigure existing parts as needed to fabricate custom stuff.

So, I'm left wondering, which do you think is a better fit for my needs?

Rob
Always an interesting discussion where opinions need to be demonstrated to be understood.

On the other hand if your demands are minimal, then just about anything will work.

However if your demands involve quality, efficiency and accuracy that is a whole other can of worms.

WATCHMAKERS LATHE

Contrary to what most will suggest, A watchmakers lathe was designed for watch size parts and not clock size parts as its name would suggest. If used for clock work and has cone bearings, they can be easily over loaded with a good chance of damage.

One of the earliest forms of a watchmakers lathe as we know it can be seen in the attached Photo.
Its a JM Bottum from around 1855. From this point on, the lathe was refined into what we commonly see today. In addition, from about this point on, watch and clock parts were manufactured with machine tools. The watchmakers lathe was commonly used to fit readily available factory watch parts utilizing a graver reducing the need for additional accessories. Even though, after thought machining attachments were available from time to time, but In general they are overly complicated, inefficient with inconsistent accuracy. This is easily understood and observed through demonstrations and comparisons to machine tool methods.

The watchmakers lathe is designed to be used with a graver for watch size parts and is the most refined and efficient piece of equipment for this type work.
With years of daily use one can become highly efficient with what can be done with a graver.
With Graver use, about 80-90 percent of what comes off of this type lathe will be from developed skill with the Graver.

UNIMAT

It was one of the first readily available small machine type lathes available back in the 50`s and 60`s. However to make a long story short, its highly versatile, but lacks efficiency, capability and accuracy by todays standards. In my personal opinion,the Unimat 3 is less desirable than the early models in that it lacks the same versatility.

SMALL MACHINE LATHES
Small Quality, efficient and accurate machine tools suitable for making horological parts have not been readily available until the last 20 years or so. So you will find little published about them in horological circles. Machine tool lathes as used by manufactures are vastly different that a watchmakers lathe utilizing a graver. The machine tool lathe can be setup and operated by unskilled labor with minimal training unlike a watchmakers Lathe. In almost all cases, if of quality, they are more accurate and far more repeatable/efficient making them the one and only choice of manufacturer`s. In a manufacturer setting, you generally have machines setup for each part or operation.
If machine tools are your choice in a small shop then this is not practical. Under these conditions, it is critical that a lathe and compatible Mill be designed to work together and utilize interchangeable accessories. However the most critical thing is that both the lathe and Mill be Versatile enough to adapt to whatever configuration is required to do what ever comes up.

When selecting a lathe in addition to these Items, I would suggest the following

(1) Variable speed drive. Must be demonstrated to be understood.

(2) A very wide range of work holding options including WW collets. Accessories are the life blood of any machine tool.

(3) While almost all evaluate a Lathe by spindle accuracy, even more critical is the ABSOLUTE control of the lathe tool cutting tip. This is where the inexpensive Chinese tools fall very short.
Industry has proven that the most accurate method of controlling machining operations is by
leadscrews on all axis. In addition the leadscrews should be adjustable for backlash and have calibrated hand wheels.

(4) Use only the highest quality tooling if quality work is the goal.

Small machine tool lathes of quality and versatility in the 3.5"- 4" swing, will handle horological work up through a typical English Grandfather movement.

Out of all of the small machine tool lathes in my collection, three have stood out above the rest and have been capable of doing the smallest work possible up through the largest limited by machine envelope.

They are the current production Sherline, Cowells and Levin. All three are more than capable of watch work and smaller as well as clock work up through their envelope limitations.

I would caution buying any machine tool used without researching/comparing current production upgrades and price comparison.

Jerry Kieffer

 

[Kevin Scott]

Buy the book, Table Top Machining, by Joe Martin. Probably costs under $50.00. This book will give you a great idea of what the Sherline lathe can do, and how to use it. With many tools, you really can't find out if they are right for you until you buy them spend time working with them. Even if you decide the Sherline is not for you, you will still be glad you bought the book.

Some of Jerry Kieffer's work is in the book. Jerry gives great advice in post #6. Search under Sherline in this forum and on the net.

Another consideration in buying a lathe system or type is the cost and availability of tooling and accessories. And factory support, and other support sources. Sherline scores high points here. Avoid orphan oddball systems.

That said, I don't own a Sherline. But probably would, in addition to having a 8mm levin, and a Geneva style lathe if I had to do it all over again. The Sherline would replace my 10mm Derbyshire lathe.

 

[Jim DuBois]

As others have suggested, either directly or indirectly, one shoe size does not fit all when it comes to lathes. It all comes down to what you need to do, how often you need to do it, and what are your expectations of the machines you own. I have been fortunate to own more than 100-200 lathes over the years including Levin, Schaublin, Derbyshire, Sherline, Taig, Bergeon, several Geneva pattern lathes, Cowells, Hardinge, a few off brand Chinese things, Unimat, South Bend, Atlas, Logan, Swiss pattern lathes, and a raft of others. They have ranged in size from 13" to 4mm. They have been everything to near junk to new. They have ranged from steady rest only to full CNC with turret tool changers and the like. My excuse for having this many has to do with buying selling trading tools along with clock work.

But to the point; I would like 3 lathes in my shop, your 10" SB would serve just fine for that large lathe need...more rough processes and larger stock machining. I have a 13" Chinese lathe for that, it is fine for the purposes. My second choice would be what I currently have, namely a Derbyshire model A lathe (this is a lathe built like a jewelers lathe only 2x the size). It handles 1/2" through the headstock, uses 3C collets, has a 4 jaw, a couple of 3 jaws, a drilling tailstock, and a turret tailstock, as well as a compound, steady rest, it has a ball bearing headstock, V belt drive, variable speed motor that runs from 0 rpm to over 10,000 rpm....my 3rd choice would be for a conventional 8mm watchmakers lathe as there are certain small items a true clockmaker will need from time to time that may not be easily done on larger lathes. What tasks you ask? I don't know but I always know when I come across them.

Now, as to accessories, every lathe needs them and every clockmaker needs even more. Accessories are task driven to be blunt. If you have a mill you don't need milling accessories for your lathe. If you don't plan to cut gears on your lathe then.....on and on. By the way, gear cutting is easier on a mill IMO than on a lathe. As to other things I look for; adjustable run out 6 jaw chucks are great, 3 jaw and 4 jaw are a necessity, a flat plate chuck is useful on occasion. I do not like any flat belt drive lathes, personal preference I know. I always want a ball bearing headstock on everything other than the 8mm and I prefer it there also. I really like the modern Levin square head 8mm lathes but they are not cheap. I always ultimately require collets with any lathe I use, to this point it is useful to consider modern colleting systems such as ER xx. They come in sizes from .010" or 1mm to over 1.25", depending of course on which ER version you select. Also, on larger lathes new 5 C collets can be had for $5 or sometimes less, yes I know they are Chinese but I have only ever had one "bad" one at it was miss stamped size wise. Most all of them have .0005" or less run out, which is a heck of a lot more accurate than I am..... I also want variable speed, a chip tray, and the ability to use lubrication and or coolant on larger lathes.

I also find a quick change tool post a necessity no matter the lathe size. Too many operations require different tools to complete as the work progresses. As many a 8 different tools ready to go in quick change configuration is desirable and 12 even better. Left cutting tool, right cutting tool, small and large boring bars, cut off tool (large and small) 45 degree tool, threading tool, chamfering tool, knurling tool, on and on.....

 

[Jerry Kieffer]

I also find a quick change tool post a necessity no matter the lathe size. Too many operations require different tools to complete as the work progresses. As many a 8 different tools ready to go in quick change configuration is desirable and 12 even better. Left cutting tool, right cutting tool, small and large boring bars, cut off tool (large and small) 45 degree tool, threading tool, chamfering tool, knurling tool, on and on.....

Hey Jim
I should mention that several items from that box that showed on my doorstep some time back have been quite useful.
Thanks Again

All of my larger Lathes have Aloris quick change tool posts and I would not be without them.
However when Micro machining (Watch size and smaller) on my 4" and under lathes, quick change is not used for a couple of reasons.

First, the large physical size of the units has limited machining observation both visual and optic as well as lathe tool setups in comparison to standard tool posts.

In addition, I personally have not been able to find a unit that is even remotely repeatable enough for this type work.

What I use is several double sided standard tool posts. Tools are then setup in the various posts and left there for the life of the tool. Tools are setup under distortion corrected optics with final fine adjustment often being the screw tension on the tool. Absolute accurate tool setup for micro machining should to be observed under optics to be understood.
This also allows for additional posts to be installed at one time greatly increasing efficiency for some jobs. Tool post change out has been as fast as quick change.

It should also be noted for this type of discussion, that not all are luck enough to be naturally gifted to the point of being proficient with a graver. (Ask me how I know)
Nor do some have the time or desire to do what it takes to be efficient.
For those, Machine Tools can be an option.

Jerry Kieffer

 

[Jim DuBois]

Hey Jim
I should mention that several items from that box that showed on my doorstep some time back have been quite useful.
Thanks Again

All of my larger Lathes have Aloris quick change tool posts and I would not be without them.
However when Micro machining (Watch size and smaller) on my 4" and under lathes, quick change is not used for a couple of reasons.


Jerry Kieffer

Jerry,

Glad you found some things of interest in the box of "stuff". I was hopeful some of it might be of interest. Unfortunately my source on that sort of tooling has dried up.

Regards the smaller quick change tool posts the one I found to be most useful is the Levin QC. Even at that I well understand your points in their regards. I don't do nearly as precision or as small of work as you do, so it was sufficient, if more than a bit pricy.

I use a small quick change from Little Machines on the Derbyshire Mod A, but they certainly suffer from a lack of high precision repeatability...+/- a couple or 3 thousandths and even for my purposes that can be a bit frustrating.....these are a bit large for the Mod A, they actually sell the kit for 7" lathes, so the Derby is I guess technically a 6" lathe.

 

[Rob P.]

Thank you to all who posted in this thread. There is a ton of very valuable information here that I will need to assimilate before I make any purchase.

It is interesting to me that there are so many good things said about the Sherline. I am a fan of "heavy metal" (cast iron & steel) when it comes to machinery so hearing such good things about the aluminum Sherline comes as a surprise.

Definitely time for more thinking before spending.

 

[Jerry Kieffer]

Thank you to all who posted in this thread. There is a ton of very valuable information here that I will need to assimilate before I make any purchase.

It is interesting to me that there are so many good things said about the Sherline. I am a fan of "heavy metal" (cast iron & steel) when it comes to machinery so hearing such good things about the aluminum Sherline comes as a surprise.

Definitely time for more thinking before spending.

Rob
While machines made of 100 % steel and cast iron were the norm a hundred years ago, it is no longer the case today for good reason. In todays world, if you attend any of the large machine tool shows you will see almost all machines especial the most expensive, will utilize aluminum and even plastic in many critical areas. They must keep the weight of the spindle heads down for the rapid movement in CNC mode.
Demonstrations of extreme accuracy and efficiency of these machines is well beyond the comprehension of many of the old time machinists and must be seen to be understood.

A lathe or mill the size of a Sherline made of 100% steel or cast iron would greatly limit its capability and versatility. In this size machine, lighter materials that have several times the required service strength and stability in selected areas, greatly increases micro machining capabilities especially manual mode common in horology. The lighter touch and cutting tool feedback allows the use of expensive micro tools decreasing the chance of breakage while increasing micro control.
Since the lighter alloys also have several times the strength required for machining maximum envelope size work pieces in this size machine, no advantage is gained with heavier and sometimes less stable materials.

Only Demonstrations will sort out fact from fiction.

Jerry Kieffer

 

[Firegriff]

Interesting I have never thought of it that way.